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Author Topic:   Why so friggin' confident?
Rahvin
Member
Posts: 4032
Joined: 07-01-2005
Member Rating: 9.2


Message 376 of 413 (496481)
01-28-2009 12:37 PM
Reply to: Message 375 by DevilsAdvocate
01-28-2009 12:28 PM


Re: Not the same form of question
It's also worth noting that the Bible contains at least one instance where God did directly tell someone to commit murder: Abraham was told to sacrifice his son, Isaac, in a manner nearly identical to the question asked of John.
That God later stopped him is irrelevant - God used it as a test of Abraham's faith.
If John were given an identical test (sacrifice {person} to me), would he obey the voice he identifies as God?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-28-2009 12:28 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 377 of 413 (496486)
01-28-2009 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 359 by Dawn Bertot
01-27-2009 11:03 PM


Re: Not the same form of question
You guys are an enigma to me sometimes, at times you can appear so intelligent and other times dumber than a fence post. DAs question would have no relevance Ned, if John was not indicating that God had ask him to do this, correct? DA is presenting a scenario that does not exist and does not apply to John.
You are clueless Bertot. People claim to hear voices all the time. Tell me you have never seen the headline about someone murdering another person or commiting some type of attrocity because of the "voices" of God/angels/demons/Satan in their head or in their dreams/visions.
Here is an example from a book I read a couple of months ago called 'Under the Banner of Heaven' which is a true story about two fundamental Mormon religious fanatics that insist they received a commandment from God to kill a blameless woman and her baby girl and they commence this aweful, disgusting deed.
Now, in no way am I comparing John 10:10 with this story, but all I am asking is a what if question to get him to think about the rationalization of what the voice of God is and how do we know who is speaking to us? That is it. It is a perfectly legitiment question.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 359 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-27-2009 11:03 PM Dawn Bertot has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 378 of 413 (496490)
01-28-2009 12:58 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by John 10:10
01-28-2009 12:04 PM


Re: Not the same form of question
John 10:10 writes:
Right on! That's why I don't play the silly "what if" games proposed by some at this forum.
Than why for the love of Pete do you post on this board. If you refuse to debate/discuss/ask/answer questions rationally and logically why are you wasting your (and our) time?
If they don't like my answers, that's fine with me.
Good gravy, how can we like or dislike your answers when you don't even provide coherent, logical answers but keep quoting scriptures left and right or dodging questions.
Christians at this forum present the truth that we have experienced in our relationship with the God of the Bible that we know, love and serve, and then leave the results to Him; i.e., it's up to God to confirm and prove to unbelievers that what we are saying is true, not us.
Banging head, I give up.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by John 10:10, posted 01-28-2009 12:04 PM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by John 10:10, posted 01-29-2009 7:07 AM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 379 of 413 (496505)
01-28-2009 1:54 PM
Reply to: Message 372 by John 10:10
01-28-2009 12:04 PM


Re: Not the same form of question
Christians at this forum present the truth that we have experienced in our relationship with the God of the Bible that we know, love and serve, and then leave the results to Him; i.e., it's up to God to confirm and prove to unbelievers that what we are saying is true, not us.
How do you know what the Christians on this board think or do you even know which members are Christians for that matter?

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 372 by John 10:10, posted 01-28-2009 12:04 PM John 10:10 has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 380 of 413 (496546)
01-29-2009 12:25 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by DevilsAdvocate
01-28-2009 12:28 PM


Re: Not the same form of question
Devil writes
It seems you and your religious fundies are just afraid to answer the question and keep skirting around it because you know where the road of logic this answer is going to take you.
You have got to be kidding me DA, no one is afraid to answer this or anyother questions posed by you fellas tyro logic. Its the manner in which you forced him to answer the question, not allowing any explanation or reasons why that may or may not happen. My responses in this connection were more than adequate, so that even a bafoon could understand my meaning and implication.
Now, in no way am I comparing John 10:10 with this story, but all I am asking is a what if question to get him to think about the rationalization of what the voice of God is and how do we know who is speaking to us? That is it. It is a perfectly legitiment question.
You did not indicate thatyou were willing for John to have a follow on answer. This is not the original question you asked him to answer, as you have now modified it. You provide that now to cover up that fact. Your specific statement was, "Now I dont need any rationalization, just a simple yes or no will suffice" You are back tracking at this point to make yourself and your original comment sound relevant now.
Now, in no way am I comparing John 10:10 with this story,
Then your question directly to him was unwarrented and irrelevant. Further, By forcing him to answer it, in the manner in whih you requested or demanded, makes even less sense and you have the nerve to call someone else clueless.
As I have been on here two years now, it should be obvious that myself, ICANT, Jaywill and any others that stand here and fight, are more than willing to answer any and all questions posed. Your character asasinations and verbage are indicative of a deeper motive, more than they exhibit your interest in the truth or someone elses opinion. We simply let these insults and belittling go by the wayside.
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-28-2009 12:28 PM DevilsAdvocate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-29-2009 6:11 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 381 of 413 (496547)
01-29-2009 12:38 AM
Reply to: Message 370 by Percy
01-28-2009 9:45 AM


Re: Summation
Percy writes:
This thread is a prime illustration of creationist irrationality. They first claim their faith is backed by evidence, then explain that you must believe before their evidence makes sense, which of course requires faith unsupported by evidence.
This is a total misrepresentation of the principles I have been advocating and you know it.
D Bertot

This message is a reply to:
 Message 370 by Percy, posted 01-28-2009 9:45 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Percy, posted 01-29-2009 10:24 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Dawn Bertot
Member
Posts: 3571
Joined: 11-23-2007


Message 382 of 413 (496550)
01-29-2009 1:01 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by Brian
01-28-2009 12:12 PM


Re: Not the same form of question
Brian writes:
I am sure you mean well, but people like yourself, Bertot, and Jaywill actually drive people away from Christianity.
Who in their right mind would voluntarily allow themselves to enter the world of circular reasoning and illogical fantasies that is Christianity?
Actually it is yourself and the other secular fundamentalists here that reconfirm that you have nothing in the way reasons not to accept the more than foundational and evidential beliefs that support Christianinty. Any thinking person can see that your positions and hatred for even the idea of God much less christianity are your motivations, yet you can provide no valid reasons why we should abandon that belief. You simply dismiss the evidence as if it doesnt exist.
If every item of every stroy of every incident could be confirmed historically or archeologically you would still dismiss any connection with God or the miraculous.. The point is that, its not due to a lack of evidence, its due to a hatred of anything connected with the idea of God or the supernatural. Im sure our viewers and readers (those following along) can see this over and over in your responses.
But hey, Brian, you just keep right on blameing the Theists and Christians for your attitude, maybe no one will notice.
Maybe the One True God is using you as a warning to us what following a false god can do to a person's sanity?
What would your objective material evidence be for this One True God. Or is this just another lousy shot as usual?
D Bertot
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.
Edited by Bertot, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Brian, posted 01-28-2009 12:12 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by Brian, posted 01-29-2009 3:29 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied
 Message 390 by Percy, posted 01-29-2009 10:36 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 383 of 413 (496558)
01-29-2009 3:29 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Dawn Bertot
01-29-2009 1:01 AM


Re: Not the same form of question
Actually it is yourself and the other secular fundamentalists here that reconfirm that you have nothing in the way reasons not to accept the more than foundational and evidential beliefs that support Christianinty.
This is just your cognitive dissonance rearing its head again, keep telling yourself that your belief is rational and supported by evidence if you want, but to us free thinkers it is clear that it isn't.
The thing is, as in regard to evidence, it is my experience that believers in general have a very poor understanding of the Bible, science, archaeology, and history. Have you never noticed that it is the 'atheist fundamentalists' who take the time to go to university and study these subjects at a very high academic level? Personally, in all they years that I have posted here, and on other boards, I have never met a Christian who has studied theology and archaeology at university yet they come on these boards and act as if they know what they are talking about, then when their errors are pointed out they start whining about having to look at the evidence through the help of the Holy Spirit!
So keep posting this obvious self-duluded position you have convinced yourself of, I am sure some psychology students will appreaciate it.
Any thinking person can see that your positions and hatred for even the idea of God much less christianity are your motivations, yet you can provide no valid reasons why we should abandon that belief.
But it is impossible for you to abandon your beliefs, I worked that out pretty soon after I joined a discussion board, Also, as an atheist, it is impossible for me to hate anything, I may dislike a lot of things, but I leave hate to the religious folk.
You simply dismiss the evidence as if it doesnt exist.
Oh I see, all these years at universities and I haven't looked at any evidence, what do you think I have been doing?
If every item of every stroy of every incident could be confirmed historically or archeologically you would still dismiss any connection with God or the miraculous..
But even IF every story was confirmed historically and archaeologically it DOES NOT follow that there is a god, can't you see your faulty reasoning here?
The point is that, its not due to a lack of evidence, its due to a hatred of anything connected with the idea of God or the supernatural.
My position is entirely due to the lack of evidence. My area of research is the origins of ancient Israel and it is ebtirely due to the lack of evidence that the Bible's version of Israel's origins has been abandonned by all except the most fundamental 'scholars', even then their hypotheses are ripped to shreds in the journals.
Im sure our viewers and readers (those following along) can see this over and over in your responses.
What they can see is obvious. John 10:10 is barely coherent, you keep coming up with some crazy idea that you have posted something worthwhile, Jaywill is full of hatred for everyone, Peg hasn't got a clue about anything really, ICANT is a decent chap but clearly deluded. So I think you will be surprised at what the readers believe.
But hey, Brian, you just keep right on blameing the Theists and Christians for your attitude, maybe no one will notice.
What attitiude? I am the friendliest person you will ever meet. I am doing you a favour and get no thanks for it.
What would your objective material evidence be for this One True God.
Oh there's evidence all right. You just need to seek it out, understand it, search and search, keep telling yourself it is true and you will find it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-29-2009 1:01 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 384 of 413 (496566)
01-29-2009 6:11 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by Dawn Bertot
01-29-2009 12:25 AM


Re: Not the same form of question
You have got to be kidding me DA, no one is afraid to answer this or anyother questions posed by you fellas tyro logic. Its the manner in which you forced him to answer the question, not allowing any explanation or reasons why that may or may not happen. My responses in this connection were more than adequate, so that even a bafoon could understand my meaning and implication.
How can I force someone to answer the question? Do I have a gun to his head? He doesn't have to answer the question, just as he doesn't have to post on EvC. The question is why are you Bertot, making such a big deal out of such a simple question? I even answered it myself. It is an easy question.
You did not indicate thatyou were willing for John to have a follow on answer. This is not the original question you asked him to answer, as you have now modified it. You provide that now to cover up that fact. Your specific statement was, "Now I dont need any rationalization, just a simple yes or no will suffice" You are back tracking at this point to make yourself and your original comment sound relevant now.
If that is the impression you got than I was attempting to clarify what I was asking for. I said the answer to the question itself is a simple yes or no. I never said that I was not going to pursue follow-on discussion based on this answer.
Then your question directly to him was unwarrented and irrelevant.
How about this multi-choice question, to clear it up? You can answer it for yourself if you want. I will provide answer's for myself below as well.
A. Do you hear voices, receive visions, dreams, etc?
B. Do you attribute any of these voices/visions/dreams, etc to the voice of God (God speaking to you about something)?
C. How do you know you are attributing this voice/dream/vision/etc correctly to a deity called God?
D. How do you know this is not just part of your psyche and not from a supernatural souce?
E. Do you always follow the direction of this voice/dream/vision that attribute as being from God?
F. Would you follow any directions from these voices/vision/dreams/etc if they went against your ethical/moral beliefs even if you attributed them to God?
BTW, these is an honest question to encourage, honest discussion and debate. If the moderators want me to I can start this as a new topic but I am truely interested to see what the answers are. Here are mine:
A. Never heard any voices per se besides my own internal thoughts which I do not attribute to supernatural sources. Never had a lucid vision while I was awake and fully conscience. I have had some very lucid and vivid dreams which I attribute to the spillage of my filtered conscience and memories into my unfettered, unfiltered unconscience mind while I am asleep.
B. No
C. I don't
D. I do believe that these voices/visions/dreams/etc are part of the natural functioning of your psyche/mind (I won't get into the psychology of this here unless we further discuss this in a new topic)
E. I don't usually follow the directives in my dreams (which I can hardly remember any). As far as the natural voices of thought and reason in my head, I weigh these against the experienes in my life, my moral framework and other rational/logical reasonings to determine a choice. This of course can be overriden by sheer emotion at times (as all humans do) but I try to weigh things by the light of reason when possible.
F. No
See wasn't that easy? Now you try. Isn't the purpose of you being here on this board to discuss, rationalize your beliefs/worldview/mindset on life?
Your character asasinations and verbage are indicative of a deeper motive, more than they exhibit your interest in the truth or someone elses opinion. We simply let these insults and belittling go by the wayside.
Bertot, you are worst hypocrite in this regard. You verbally assault just about everyone that disagrees with you on this board. Go back the times I have verbally insulted people on this board and I will do the same with you and I KNOW that I can find a ton more times where you insult people i.e. me, mod, Brian, Dr. Jones, Huntard etc. etc. than anyone else. And then you wonder, WONDER? why people don't want to join your religion. Most of us just ignore your stupid one liners (i.e. the humourless, stupid hanger insult to Mod) and insults but now you have the audacity to say that we insult and belittle YOU? Now that is funny!

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-29-2009 12:25 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 385 of 413 (496584)
01-29-2009 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 373 by Brian
01-28-2009 12:12 PM


Re: Not the same form of question
I am sure you mean well, but people like yourself, Bertot, and Jaywill actually drive people away from Christianity.
Other than the wonders of creation that can never be proved by scientific naturalism, the Gospel of Christ as recorded in the pages of the Bible, and Acts 2 Pentecost that keeps on happening, what further proof would it take for you to believe that Jesus is Lord?
Excuse me for asking, but could it be that it's not we Christians who are not in our "right minds?"
What kind of Christian would it take that could "drive" you to the Lord? [The God of the Bible says He is the one that draws sinners to repentance and to our Redeemer and Lord.]
Could it be that you don't want there to be a God like that?
If you could or would believe in God, how would you want Him to be and act?
Have you not become your own god?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 373 by Brian, posted 01-28-2009 12:12 PM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-29-2009 10:06 AM John 10:10 has replied

John 10:10
Member (Idle past 2996 days)
Posts: 766
From: Mt Juliet / TN / USA
Joined: 02-01-2006


Message 386 of 413 (496587)
01-29-2009 7:07 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by DevilsAdvocate
01-28-2009 12:58 PM


Re: Not the same form of question
Than why for the love of Pete do you post on this board. If you refuse to debate/discuss/ask/answer questions rationally and logically why are you wasting your (and our) time?
I will explain with anyone who honestly wants to understand what the Bible has to say about our Creator/Redeemer God. This we do from the standpoint of having entered into God's salvation, not from the standpoint of standing outside looking in. This is why this is "circular reasoning" to you, and will remain so until you are honestly willing to ask God to help you with your unbelief.
Blessings

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by DevilsAdvocate, posted 01-28-2009 12:58 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by bluescat48, posted 01-29-2009 8:18 AM John 10:10 has not replied

bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 387 of 413 (496599)
01-29-2009 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 386 by John 10:10
01-29-2009 7:07 AM


Re: Not the same form of question
No one is asking you to explain the Bible. They are asking you direct questions which you either evade or simply sprout Biblical passages. That is what the complaint is.
Edited by bluescat48, : sp

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969

This message is a reply to:
 Message 386 by John 10:10, posted 01-29-2009 7:07 AM John 10:10 has not replied

DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 388 of 413 (496612)
01-29-2009 10:06 AM
Reply to: Message 385 by John 10:10
01-29-2009 6:57 AM


Re: Not the same form of question
Other than the wonders of creation that can never be proved by scientific naturalism, the Gospel of Christ as recorded in the pages of the Bible, and Acts 2 Pentecost that keeps on happening, what further proof would it take for you to believe that Jesus is Lord?
I am sorry, even if this story of the Pentacost in the Bible were true, I have yet to see flames of fire on top of people's heads and people speaking in foreign languages which they never learned or spoke before (not gibberish) and which people from all over the world could understand. Maybe I am wrong, but I have yet to see this occur anywhere.
What kind of Christian would it take that could "drive" you to the Lord? [The God of the Bible says He is the one that draws sinners to repentance and to our Redeemer and Lord.]
A non-hypocrite, honest person who can back up his beliefs with actions and real evidence.
Could it be that you don't want there to be a God like that?
No, I do not want the Biblical cruel, violent, biogted, perverted, murdering, ruthless deity who brutaly and bloodely kills men, women, children, babies and animals without impunity or mercy and sends billions of people to eternal torment in hell (except those who blindly laud and worship him).
If you could or would believe in God, how would you want Him to be and act?
One who gives a damn about humanity and life on the Earth!?! Where is your God now? All we have is a 2000+ year old story which no one can confirm is true and no one can provide any substantive evidence that he has appeared or done anything for humanity for the past 2000 years since then.
Have you not become your own god?
No. I do not believe in supernatural deities. So no, I am not a god. I am a mere fallible human being.
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by John 10:10, posted 01-29-2009 6:57 AM John 10:10 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by John 10:10, posted 01-29-2009 12:41 PM DevilsAdvocate has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 389 of 413 (496613)
01-29-2009 10:24 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by Dawn Bertot
01-29-2009 12:38 AM


Re: Summation
Bertot writes:
This is a total misrepresentation of the principles I have been advocating and you know it.
No, Bertot, I do not know it. In fact, I believe to the deepest fiber of my being that I gave an accurate summary of your views. I have rebutted your illogic and irrationality over and over again in this thread, and for the most part you have chosen not to respond, or when you did respond it was to repeat the same illogic and irrationality that declares black to be white and faith to be evidence.
If there is actually no contradiction when you say that your faith is backed by evidence but that belief must precede evidence, then you're going to have to reconcile the contradiction, not just declare that it doesn't exist.
I've read your previous message, and I understand that you and Jaywill and ICANT and most other sincere fundamentalists deeply believe in your hearts what you're saying about your faith. But true faith, like true love, is not logical or rational. True faith is what you believe when all evidence says no. What you guys have seems like true faith to me. Where you go wrong is when you claim your faith has evidence that's the same as scientific evidence. If that were the case then it would be science and not religion.
Both you and John 10:10 followed identical paths in your line of argument. You yourself claimed that the evidence for your faith was the same in nature and quality as the evidence for evolution. John 10:10 claimed that the evidence for his faith was as obvious as the evidence for gravity, and gave the illustration of stepping off a 100 story building.
When the incongruity of this claim was pointed out, both you and John 10:10 qualified it in similar ways. John 10:10 said that it only applied if you first sought God. You said that belief had to precede evidence rather than the other way around. And then you both claimed that this was completely consistent with your original claims about your evidence being the same as scientific evidence, to everyone else's complete bewilderment.
You task now is to reconcile this obvious contradiction, which cannot be accomplished by casting aspersions upon the people you're debating with. I suggest trying logic and rational arguments.
A note about continuing this thread. We're way past 300 messages, but since Mod and I are participating, I don't think it's right that we make the decision about closure. So I've asked AdminNosy and Adminnemooseus to look in and see what they think about whether it's time for closure or not. In the meantime, participants should just continue with the discussion.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-29-2009 12:38 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 390 of 413 (496615)
01-29-2009 10:36 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Dawn Bertot
01-29-2009 1:01 AM


Re: Not the same form of question
Bertot, accusing others of holding the position they do because they hate your God is ridiculous. What sense would it make to hate something that doesn't exist. We would no more hate your God than we would hate the gods of Easter Island. I'm a deist, of course, though not a Christian, but non-Christians, agnostics and atheists by and large don't have any emotional hangups with fictional characters, be they from Grimm's fairy tales, Mother Goose or the Bible.
You're going to have to stop making accusations and somehow come to trust that people oppose your ideas because they really do honestly perceive them to be nonsensical. Maybe we're wrong about that, but the way to show we're wrong is through logical and rational argument, not accusations of hatred. And besides, it's contrary to the Forum Guidelines.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Dawn Bertot, posted 01-29-2009 1:01 AM Dawn Bertot has not replied

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