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Author Topic:   Many Christians Lack Responsibility
DevilsAdvocate
Member (Idle past 3101 days)
Posts: 1548
Joined: 06-05-2008


Message 31 of 138 (512921)
06-22-2009 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 11 by mike the wiz
06-22-2009 5:29 AM


Re: To Start This Topic Out....
Mike writes:
You are a prime example of this modern mindset I spoke about.
Mike, I am glad you put me into the "modern mindset" category vice the biblical & Dark Ages mentality of killing non-believing infidels and anyone who disagrees with your religious worldview. Thankfully we have enough intelligent people (nonreligious and religious) that can see through your facad of hypocricy, irrationality, religious extemism and stupidity and push forward free thinking, equal rights, technology, morality, and science.
Mike writes:
Don't you see that judging God according to what you think, as a man from the dust, IS SIN.
I am actually not judging your god. I am judging you and your moral hypocrictical system that you base on a 2000+ year old book. I don't believe in your god. So I really don't personally care what you believe. You could believe that a purple unicorns runs the universe. I could care less. However what I do care about is when you get on your religious, self-righteous high-horse and push your twisted form of morality down other people's throats and push it in the public forums and into our secular government and schools, than I AM going to call you on it and say it for what it is.
Mike writes:
Can't you see the problem logically? you are supposed to be the rational one.
We can go around and around all day about who is the most rational and logical. I am getting off your demented merry go round.
Mike writes:
Think about it. The bible says that to question God is sin.Job was told to "curse God and die"....but he never in his suffering, thought he knew better than God...For my ways are higher than your ways, and my thoughts are higher than your thoughts. For God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. And another scripture is "for God is not a man that he can lie"....If God says He is righteous, and His word is true, then he can't lie and say he is righteous when he is not.
And we should believe your religious book why? Why not believe in Dianetics or the Book of Mormon? Why not the Qu'ran?
Mike writes:
Your problem is that your own morals REQUIRE that you sin against God by speaking falsely against him, or WORSE - from ignorance.
Whatever floats your boat.
Morality are rules and standards of how people should act towards each other and the world they live in to make our lives easier to get along with each other and affords everyone equal rights (and responsibilities). Nothing more, nothing less.
Besides, how does this get God off the hook if he breaks his own rules? How can God say do not murder and then command the bloody murder of entire cities and villages of tens of thousands of people including innocent children and babies?
I am in the Navy and am a father, how would it look to my Sailors or to my child if I layed out rules for them to follow and blatantly violated them myself. It would undermine my authority and I would not have a leg to stand on to ask them to follow any future instructions/orders. Lead from the front is what the military advocates. You cannot effectively lead if you are not following your own instructions. Yet you are advocating a policy of "do as I say, not as I do" with your god just because some book of antiquity tells you to. Who is being irrational?
You are asking me to believe that your "god" because the Bible says he is divine. However, he can violate his own commandments he has given humanity and we have no recourse to call him on it? Is that what you are advocating?
Mike writes:
If God says He is righteous, and His word is true, then he can't lie and say he is righteous when he is not
Ok, so are you saying God is not righteous?
Mike writes:
See the contradiction yet?
No. There is no contradiction. You statements are not even coherent. If I don't believe in your book and your god then how can it be a contradiction to not believe in your system of morality?
Edited by DevilsAdvocate, : No reason given.

For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
Dr. Carl Sagan

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by mike the wiz, posted 06-22-2009 5:29 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 32 of 138 (512939)
06-22-2009 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by Brian
06-22-2009 8:18 AM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
The thing is Adam, and Eve for that matter, did NOT know it was evil to disobey God because they did NOT know what good and evil was until AFTER they ate the fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil! I'd say it is pretty evil to curse someone and their descendants for doing something that they didn't know was wrong. This is quite a glaring error in the Fall myth.
We know that they at least knew not to eat from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. Did they recognize this act as evil ? Probably not, because as you said, before eating it, they could not know.
This could be analogous to me telling a hypothetical kid I would have not to touch the hot stove. He would probably not know that doing this is 'bad' until he touches it.
Another option is that any knowledge they could have pre-fall of what is good and what is evil would come from God (God telling them: this is good, this is evil). After the fall, they would have gained the ability to decide by themself, without God, what is Good and what is Evil.
I would guess positions would be defendable.
That's assuming that we have free will, we could simply be playing out a part that God has already written for us, with our 'choices' already determined.
Yeah well if we're talking theologically and biblically, we have free will, which is the way to go if you are talking about the biblical God. Of course, we could be just playing out the dream of a fat man in the sky (similar to some hindu beliefs I think), but then it would not be the God of the Bible.
I suppose that to appreciate 'good' we need to know what 'evil' is. But why not just create a world where there is no 'evil', or if there has to be evil let it be kept away from His children like the hedge He put around Job, what loving parent would not want this type of world for their children?
This comes back i would guess to the usual answer: God wanted humans to have the choice. Now I mean, he could have built an electric fence around the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil, and then say: don't eat it!. But then, even if they would have wanted to eat it, they couldn't have.
Reading your comments, I have the impression that your opinion stems from Dawkins book 'the God delusion'. If this is the case, I would suggest to watch 'The God delusion debate' betweens Professor Dawkins and Dr. John Lennox. I found it pretty good.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by Brian, posted 06-22-2009 8:18 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 06-22-2009 3:29 PM slevesque has replied
 Message 34 by Brian, posted 06-22-2009 3:58 PM slevesque has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 33 of 138 (512941)
06-22-2009 3:29 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by slevesque
06-22-2009 3:21 PM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
quote:
I would suggest to watch 'The God delusion debate' betweens Professor Dawkins and Dr. John Lennox.
Do you have a link?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by slevesque, posted 06-22-2009 3:21 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by slevesque, posted 06-22-2009 6:05 PM Phat has not replied
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 06-24-2009 7:48 AM Phat has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 34 of 138 (512942)
06-22-2009 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by slevesque
06-22-2009 3:21 PM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
Hi Slevesque,
Reading your comments, I have the impression that your opinion stems from Dawkins book 'the God delusion'.
I'm not a fan of Dawkins, and, as I am sure many theists here can testify to, I haved stated these opinions long before the God Delusion came along. TBH I haven't even read the book, but I get the impression that Dawkins has essentially grouped together a collection of atheist arguments and wove his eloquent style through them. I certainly would place my knowledge of the Bible way above Dawkins'.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by slevesque, posted 06-22-2009 3:21 PM slevesque has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by slevesque, posted 06-22-2009 6:10 PM Brian has not replied

  
Utopia
Junior Member (Idle past 5137 days)
Posts: 26
From: Boston, MA.
Joined: 09-19-2006


Message 35 of 138 (512947)
06-22-2009 4:37 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by purpledawn
06-21-2009 10:28 AM


Re: Adult Relationship With God
The new covenant he describes in Jeremiah is really a description of a more mature relationship. He no longer has to teach or discipline, just as we don't need to continue teaching or disciplining our adult children
Interesting. At what point in our history do you think God decided we were "grown" enough to no longer need disciplining? Was there an event in the bible that this moment of transformation can be traced to?
Greg P.
Edited by Utopia, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by purpledawn, posted 06-21-2009 10:28 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
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purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 36 of 138 (512953)
06-22-2009 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Utopia
06-22-2009 4:37 PM


Re: Adult Relationship With God
quote:
Interesting. At what point in our history do you think God decided we were "grown" enough to no longer need disciplining? Was there an event in the bible that this moment of transformation can be traced to?
Whenever mankind realizes that a god isn't disciplining them.
The moment was when God stopped talking.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Utopia, posted 06-22-2009 4:37 PM Utopia has not replied

  
slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 37 of 138 (512955)
06-22-2009 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
06-22-2009 3:29 PM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
dunno if it is on the net, I had to buy it. But I consider that it was worth it, since it is rare to have two highly qualified debaters such as these two.
EDIT: http://www.dawkinslennoxdebate.com/
it seems to have the integral video
Edited by slevesque, : No reason given.

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slevesque
Member (Idle past 4640 days)
Posts: 1456
Joined: 05-14-2009


Message 38 of 138 (512956)
06-22-2009 6:10 PM
Reply to: Message 34 by Brian
06-22-2009 3:58 PM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
In 'the God Delusion' Dawkins pretty much portrays the biblical God as an evil being, responsible for mass murder etc. So reading your opinion I linked that maybe you had read the book and adopted his approach.
You should have written a book about this point of view before dawkins, you would have made a lot of money hehe.
I still recommend 'the God Delusion debate' though, since if I remember correctly this is one of the points being debated.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by Brian, posted 06-22-2009 3:58 PM Brian has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 39 of 138 (513028)
06-24-2009 7:32 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Brian
06-22-2009 6:17 AM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
No doubt we will now see the famous cop out: ‘Ah well, when Isaiah says ‘evil’ he does not really mean ‘evil’ he means something else.
It depends on how you think. Obviously I take the bible as a whole - believeing it's compilation is intended by God. If it says that there is no darkness in God, or sin, then logically "create evil" cannot refer to something morally negative about Him. (LOGICALLY).
There seems to be two positions.
1. find one verse which says something bad about God. (The Jews wouldn't do it) or;
2. Find out what the Word means by "create evil".
One thing we can do is look at the stories in the bible, and see how God "creates evil". His actions are infact only ever retliatory, in response to sin. Thus, the definition of evil, though it might seem a semantics issue, must be adressed, otherwise you are free to simply judge God by taking any verse you can get that seems to condemn Him.
The story of the Fall is riddled with errors, which, amongst other things, is a wee clue that it is a fairytale. Try reading the Fall of Man through an objective lens for once and you will see how evil God is.
You don't read it objectively Brian. The language you use, and the things you state, are by no means objective. If you want to personally conclude that it is a fairytale, so be it. It is not a logical requirement of reason however.
Do you really think Satan came into existence on his own, or is an eternal being?
Do you think God is capable of obliterating Satan out of existence?
I believe satan was an angel/servant of God whom sinned. I do believe God is capable of anything. But "anything" is limited, in our understanding. The bible says God's ways aren't our ways, nor his understanding, and that we "should not lean on our own understanding".
One thing I can state is that our knowledge of satan is very limited. I don't need satan to exist to show that humans sin, or that I sin.
I think reading your posts Brian, your objections are exactly the same as every other atheist's objections, and I have heard them many times. IMO, you are all of the same spirit, that is; ypou are without God, will try and blame him for everything and anything, and think that this is somehow impressive.
On the surface perhaps it is, but no wisdom comes easily. no understanding is given to those who will not accept instruction from God! Therefore you are "always learning, and never knowing".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Brian, posted 06-22-2009 6:17 AM Brian has not replied

Replies to this message:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 40 of 138 (513030)
06-24-2009 7:48 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by Phat
06-22-2009 3:29 PM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
I think your eclectic approach leads you in the wrong way Phat. The whole point is that we can only state anything about God because of the scriptures. As long as you simply lean on your OWN FEELINGS/THOUGHTS, then you are creating your own god, based on what YOU think is right or wrong.
If we as christians merely promote yet another opinion, then that opinion is just an aopinion like anyone elses. But if we hold fast to the scriptures, then our authority is without question because we put away our own opinions at a very heavy personal cost.
For the whole point is that we absolutely refuse to deny our personal sins that satisy our flesh...But the true message is no picnic and no fairytale,..the true message is that we will, with many troubles, enter the kingdom.
Being a Christian brings pain. A fairytale doesn't. A fairytale is that if you kill your neighbour, you will have 40 virgins in heaven.
But there is no carnal activity in heaven, which is sin. This is why the bible is vital - because if we lean on our own understanding...bad things happen - we commit adultery, as love is free...etc...
Now if i want to make my own religion, i'll go and find a way to carry on sinning. But the truth hurts, and it is still hurting me everyday, because denying self is killing me. That's because to deny the flesh is to say that it is dead.
You have lost your way Phat, in that human thinking, from Jar's Gospel, and atheists....have indoctrinated you.
You shouldn't fear what they say..they have phds, some of them, but God hasn't got any phds....nor will he boast.
They do not have wisdom, nor understanding. Phat, find Christians that know their bible, believe in it all, or go down the path I went down when I became evolutionist - but that period was all because of my own selfish doubts...and I pierced myself with many sorrows. These people aren't gods Phat, these evcers, they're just fallen men..Trust ME.
Lean on Christ. Pray to Him - and ask Him to guide you in the way everlasting. He has answered all my prayers, and been faithful.
I felt the presence of God come down upon me, fill me, and take my depression from me. It was supernatural. When I praised God, His presence fell upon me.. It's not something that can be faked or fabricated..you have to ignore the voices of disbelievers..God has done things for me that would blow your mind BECAUSE, when everything was LOST, I declared that I would accept losing anything, but I woulkd NOT lose God - nor speak against Him. And then? An explosion of blessings beyond the possible.
You need to get back on fire. I would not tell you these things unless they were true. But I am His witness, I declare that he is true. Now forget men - i command you to turn back to me with all your heart.
Edited by mike the wiz, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by Phat, posted 06-22-2009 3:29 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Stile, posted 06-24-2009 9:10 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 44 by Phage0070, posted 06-24-2009 9:19 AM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 45 by purpledawn, posted 06-24-2009 11:09 AM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 59 by Phat, posted 06-24-2009 6:31 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Huntard
Member (Idle past 2295 days)
Posts: 2870
From: Limburg, The Netherlands
Joined: 09-02-2008


Message 41 of 138 (513031)
06-24-2009 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by mike the wiz
06-24-2009 7:32 AM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
mike the wiz writes:
think reading your posts Brian, your objections are exactly the same as every other atheist's objections, and I have heard them many times. IMO, you are all of the same spirit, that is; ypou are without God, will try and blame him for everything and anything, and think that this is somehow impressive.
Would you mind explaining to me how I can in any possible way blame something that I don't believe exists?

I hunt for the truth

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by mike the wiz, posted 06-24-2009 7:32 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 42 of 138 (513032)
06-24-2009 9:08 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by mike the wiz
06-24-2009 7:32 AM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
mike the wiz writes:
Obviously I take the bible as a whole - believeing it's compilation is intended by God. If it says that there is no darkness in God, or sin, then logically "create evil" cannot refer to something morally negative about Him. (LOGICALLY).
Wait a second. You are looking at a text and maintain that what a text literally says cannot logically be what it says, based on what that text says elsewhere. Logically you should conclude that the text is simply inconsistent.
Why would you conclude that God creates good rather than evil? The text says both, and I don't see any explanation why you are not arguing that God creates evil and that the other places where it says he creates good are simply a misinterpretation. See if you can explain that without admitting "I simply prefer it that way."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by mike the wiz, posted 06-24-2009 7:32 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 43 of 138 (513033)
06-24-2009 9:10 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
06-24-2009 7:48 AM


Seriously?
Wow. I knew you were a bit off your rocker, Mike. But I never thought it was because you're likely in a cult.
Oh, don't worry, I'll back up that statement. Because that's what people who are honest and rational do. They don't just say things, they actually show why the things they claim are actually true:
How to Identify a Cult from: Christian Courier
quote:
(1) Cult members are "focused on a living leader to whom members seem to display excessively zealous, unquestioning commitment."
Huh let’s see what you said about yourself:
mike the wiz writes:
if we hold fast to the scriptures, then our authority is without question
...
...if we lean on our own understanding...bad things happen...
...
I would not tell you these things unless they were true. But I am His witness, I declare that he is true. Now forget men - i command you to turn back to me with all your heart.
Excessively zealous? ...check. (seriously... I command you? )
Unquestioning commitment? ...check.
Living leader? Not sure. Doesn’t Christianity believe that Jesus is still alive? Likely your pastor is alive, anyway ...probably check.
You seem to fit the first test like a glove. I certainly couldn’t come up with a better description of how you’ve presented yourself.
Let’s try number 2:
quote:
(2) "Questioning, doubt, and dissent are discouraged," and there can be pressure or social punishment when there is disagreement with the "boss."
Okay, let’s see what else you have to say:
mike the wiz writes:
I think your eclectic approach leads you in the wrong way Phat.
...
The whole point is that we can only state anything about God because of the scriptures.
...
You have lost your way Phat, in that human thinking, from Jar's Gospel, and atheists... have indoctrinated you.
...
You need to get back on fire.
Discouraging questions and doubt? ...check.
Social pressures for disagreement? ...check.
Uh oh, 2-for-2 Mike. Well, maybe things will start to look up. Or, more likely, maybe your views will finally be seen for what they actually are. Let’s move forward.
quote:
(3) The leader "is preoccupied with [raising] money."
Good job, Mike! Nothing at all about money in your post. Well done. Of course, if Phat did "turn back to you," would he be expected to tithe? Regardless, here you’ve escaped this aspect. 2-out-of-3 still doesn’t seem so swell, though. Moving on:
quote:
(4) The cult leader generates within his members "a polarized" mentality. His people evolve an us-versus-them outlook.
eep. Head’s up, Mike I think you’re about to gain another point for being a cult, let’s see:
mike the wiz writes:
If we as christians merely promote yet another opinion, then that opinion is just an aopinion like anyone elses.
...
You shouldn't fear what they say..they have phds, some of them, but God hasn't got any phds....nor will he boast. ... They do not have wisdom, nor understanding.
...
Phat, find Christians that know their bible, believe in it all, or go down the path I went down when I became evolutionist
...
When I praised God, His presence fell upon me.. It's not something that can be faked or fabricated..you have to ignore the voices of disbelievers...
Polarized mentality? ...check.
Sorry Mike, 3-for-4. That’s 75% cult now. Ouch... let’s see what’s next:
quote:
(5) The cult leader has a clearly defined anti-authoritarian disposition.
Huh, not sure we can check this one, no one’s accusing you of being a cult leader, just a cult member. We’ll have to ignore this point until (if ever) further information is obtained.
quote:
(6) Cult members are seen occasionally to take on a new personality. They begin to act differently. They become increasingly antagonistic to family members and long-time friends. They may even boast, "I am not the old [name] that you used to know; I am a new person now."
Well, this isn’t going to end well, this one hardly even requires quotes. This is pretty much the only thing you ever say. But, just to be thorough:
mike the wiz writes:
You have lost your way Phat, in that human thinking, from Jar's Gospel, and atheists....have indoctrinated you.
...
I felt the presence of God come down upon me, fill me, and take my depression from me. It was supernatural. When I praised God, His presence fell upon me...
Antagonistic to old friends? ...check.
Professing becoming a new person? ...check.
And, there we have it. A score of 4-out-of-5, matching 80% of the warning signs pointing towards Mike being part of a cult.
Mike, take a look at how damaging and evil the statements you’ve made actually are. Just because you profess to have the Bible and God on your side doesn’t mean that everything you can say to defend them is "in the name of good." Unless, of course, you’re going to define "good" as something useless and obviously corrupt as "whatever God says, just because He said it." But that’s an argument that can be destroyed in other threads. Such as this one, for anyone interested: Message 1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 06-24-2009 7:48 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by mike the wiz, posted 06-24-2009 1:18 PM Stile has replied

  
Phage0070
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 138 (513034)
06-24-2009 9:19 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
06-24-2009 7:48 AM


Re: But God is Evil so.....
mike the wiz writes:
Being a Christian brings pain. A fairytale doesn't. A fairytale is that if you kill your neighbour, you will have 40 virgins in heaven.
The fairytale you mention here causes a lot of pain. It kills and maims on a daily basis, seemingly indiscriminately between those who believe it and those who do not. *Your* fairytale also hurts others, as well as yourself.
mike the wiz writes:
These people aren't gods Phat, these evcers, they're just fallen men..Trust ME.
Yes Phat, trust the guy who acts on his imagination even though he knows it hurts people! Why can't you simply do what he tells you? Slavery to a dangerous fiction must be better than being your own man/woman, right?
mike the wiz writes:
He has answered all my prayers, and been faithful.
Of course nobody can prove this. But hey, "Trust ME!"
mike the wiz writes:
I would not tell you these things unless they were true. But I am His witness, I declare that he is true. Now forget men - i command you to turn back to me with all your heart.
"Would I lie to you?" - Has that line *ever* worked?
As the Flying Spaghetti Monster as my witness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster exists! I wouldn't say this if it was not true, turn back to his starchy embrace!
Edited by Phage0070, : Wording

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 06-24-2009 7:48 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 45 of 138 (513039)
06-24-2009 11:09 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by mike the wiz
06-24-2009 7:48 AM


Christianity is Eclectic
quote:
I think your eclectic approach leads you in the wrong way Phat. The whole point is that we can only state anything about God because of the scriptures. As long as you simply lean on your OWN FEELINGS/THOUGHTS, then you are creating your own god, based on what YOU think is right or wrong.
Christianity itself is eclectic. Many religions and customs have been assimilated into the Christian religion. I do agree that Phat seems to be adrift, but that probably because of his personality or at least the one we seem to see here at EvC.
Phat seems to be someone who needs an outside anchor for stability and he hasn't found his yet. I think he feels God is his anchor, but when faced with a place like EvC and all the inconsistencies within Christianity he is still pretty much adrift.
His anchor is not within himself probably because he doesn't trust himself. Sometimes I get that feeling from his writings.
I don't feel that Phat has really lost his way, he just hasn't found the one way he trusts. He's trying to find a place to drop anchor within Christianity, but hasn't found solid ground yet.
It will be difficult for him to grow, whether with religion or without religion, until he finds his solid ground to start.
(Of course, Phat, I could be totally wrong in my observation. )
quote:
You need to get back on fire. I would not tell you these things unless they were true. But I am His witness, I declare that he is true. Now forget men - i command you to turn back to me with all your heart.
Nice catch phrase and metaphor, but what you're asking Phat to do is turn back to opinions of men of religion that you consider trustworthy. It is all still opinions of men, even the Bible.
quote:
Being a Christian brings pain. A fairytale doesn't. A fairytale is that if you kill your neighbour, you will have 40 virgins in heaven.
You realize that what you said really doesn't mean anything don't you?
Being a Christian in the US doesn't bring pain. Pain and suffering, fun and pleasure are part of life whether one is a Christian or not. I don't see that Christians suffer any more just because they are Christians.
Foundational myths contain valuable lessons, but we shouldn't confuse the creative delivery system with the actual lesson.

"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by mike the wiz, posted 06-24-2009 7:48 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 46 by mike the wiz, posted 06-24-2009 1:11 PM purpledawn has replied

  
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