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Author Topic:   The Search for Moderate Islam
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 136 of 432 (737313)
09-22-2014 10:52 AM
Reply to: Message 131 by Jon
09-22-2014 12:20 AM


politics
Not at all. But I can see how you might think that since you broke my paragraph apart and took pieces of it out of their context.
The other parts of the paragraph are just reinforcing the notion that you think it is Islam alone that is the problem. Or are you not saying this?
My point: It is very 'western' to see the world in terms of economics and politicsthese are pretty much the driving forces behind individual decision making in the west; it's part of our culture. This is not part of everyone else's culture though.
If you are trying to sound uninformed then you are doing a decent job.
Please, Oh Wise One, explain to me how politics is irrelevant to Arab culture. Show me your wisdom and your sources on how Political Islam is ambivalent on the topic of politics and economics. I wonder what OBL was saying in the 1990s?
Hm, seems to be talking politics, about America's and Israel's policies and classifications and their targeting of Muslims. What about later though?
Anyone else?
quote:
Britain, which helped to topple the Ottoman State, handed Palestine to the Jews and participated in the killings of Muslims in Afghanistan and Iraq and whose crimes continue to be seen in every corner of the Islamic world.
Salafist jihadism not interested in politics?? Islamism, disinterested in politics? LOL!! Their motivation is political, their rationalization for their tactics is religious.
Where does that leave us? Whole cultures deciding to live in Backwardsville where governments are theocracies and human rights don't matter just to avoid accepting ideas they perceive as coming from the 'enemy'? Are they that stupid?
Cultures don't make decisions, and people don't have access to the same information and experiences you do so you can't expect them to conclude the same things.
I don't think so; instead I think the problem is that the area is so entrenched in its religious delusions that absolutely nothing else in the world matters beyond maintaining those delusions. 'Western' ideas are bad not because they are 'western' but specifically because they threaten to shatter the delusion.
That's part of it, yes. Their religion is a big part of their culture, and they don't want to westernize their religion because they don't see the west as being something to aspire to, but instead as something to fear.
But you are looking at a cause-effect problem here. Why is the Salafi movement being successful? Muslims haven't always been this way, it has been rising since the 80s I believe courtesy of Saudi Arabia, but really got its legs in the mid 90s and is currently having another surge. Why is that?
I say it is fuelled by anger and a sense of powerlessness and oppression. A sense of an outside group trying to impose their will and views on the group they belong to, unifying them even as they have disagreements against a perceived common enemy. What do you say?
You asked me why I felt different about Islam, not whether I expected it to behave differently.
I did not ask you a general question about Islam, but a question in a specific context.
{Explaining why moderate Islam has difficulty spreading around}It is in its early stages; it is still the lofty ideas of a handful of moderate Muslims; and there is still plenty of disagreement about what moderate Islam should be.
It's an Abrahamic religion, the other two major ones and all the minor ones are disagreeing about the correct way to be a modern moderate and I don't see why we should feel different about Islam.
You seem to have misunderstood this. We're talking about how moderate Islam might not spread well, and you think one of the reasons there is difficulty is that there is 'plenty of disagreement'. My counter to this is that this is true of other comparable moderate religions and that didn't seem to be a huge problem and if it was, it worked out in the end. So, unless you have some particular reason to think Islam is exceptional in this regard, I expect the fact that religious people disagree about their made up stories is not a big barrier to the moderates getting their message accepted. If it does inhibit it, there's nothing we can do about it because that's what religion does, and we should be looking to other reasons we might be able to influence.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.
Edited by Modulous, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 12:20 AM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 138 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 12:38 PM Modulous has replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 137 of 432 (737318)
09-22-2014 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Jaderis
09-22-2014 4:49 AM


Re: liberal Islam
Responding to your points in reverse order and in one thread:
Maybe their definition of a successful society is different than yours or mine? You chided Mod about cultural assumptions, but you seem to be doing just that.
Some understandings of morality are superior.
quote:
Jaderis in Message 133:
I wholeheartedly agree, but the next question then becomes: how do we go about not being complacent with human rights violations without violating human rights and/or without potentially creating even bigger problems?
You get rid of whatever is violating human rights; I think it is assumed under most liberal governments that there is no right to violate the rights of others. That is one right that we don't have to be in the business of protecting.
There was a link given at the beginning of this thread to another thread (Evil Muslim conspiracy...). I've been reading this thread. Modulous cites some information in a message there (that was also cited by Bill Maher in an interview that I think was linked to in this thread, but anyway):
quote:
Modulous in Message 131 in Evil Muslim conspiracy...:
The outlook is probably more like a huge percentage (perhaps even a majority in some places) want global Islam, Shariah for all, extreme modesty for women etc etc. The only difference is that despite wanting these things they are not always prepared to take extreme measures to acheive them, taking a more long term 'Allah will see to it eventually' kind of ending.
This however means that there is a strong temptation to 'look the other way' when it comes to certain situations. Sure, threatening to kill Rushdie is not condoned by this Muslim - but they might think that Rushdie brought it on himself and deserves to take some flak and should even 'expect' Allah to enact his vengeance through some 'extremist'. The means were questionable, but the end is noble kind of thing.
I went looking for examples of this attitude:
quote:
Four out of 10 British Muslims want sharia law introduced into parts of the country, a survey reveals today.
The ICM opinion poll also indicates that a fifth have sympathy with the "feelings and motives" of the suicide bombers who attacked London last July 7, killing 52 people, although 99 per cent thought the bombers were wrong to carry out the atrocity.
Source: telegraph
All this said - 'Islam' is a very wide demographic with probably more differences between groups than similarities.
quote:
About eight-in-ten Muslims in Egypt and Pakistan (82% each) endorse the stoning of people who commit adultery; 70% of Muslims in Jordan and 56% of Nigerian Muslims share this view. Muslims in Pakistan and Egypt are also the most supportive of whippings and cutting off of hands for crimes like theft and robbery; 82% in Pakistan and 77% in Egypt favor making this type of punishment the law in their countries, as do 65% of Muslims in Nigeria and 58% in Jordan.
When asked about the death penalty for those who leave the Muslim religion, at least three-quarters of Muslims in Jordan (86%), Egypt (84%) and Pakistan (76%) say they would favor making it the law; in Nigeria, 51% of Muslims favor and 46% oppose it. In contrast, Muslims in Lebanon, Turkey and Indonesia largely reject the notion that harsh punishments should be the law in their countries. About three-quarters of Turkish and Lebanese Muslims oppose the stoning of people who commit adultery (77% and 76%, respectively), as does a narrower majority (55%) of Muslims in Indonesia.
The bottom line is: if religiously sanctioned death and mutilation is an extremist position - its a very common one.
This is why, at least partially, attempts to bring democratic systems to these areas have failed to restore basic human rights: the majority of people living in these regions don't want a society that recognizes basic human rights.
The rest of the world is finding its hands tied and in a panic on what to do. How can you bring human rights to people who don't want them? How do you ensure the protection of people who do want those rights and would benefit from them?
The rights of the oppressors to oppress seems to be an acceptable casualty in all this.
Don't you think?
quote:
Jaderis in Message 132:
Of course, ridding the world of Islam means ridding the world of Muslims.
This is completely untrue. And it is beside the point. What I was saying is that Islam is not more important to the world than the preservation and spread of basic human rights and liberties. If, for example, convincing people of the need for human rights turns them from the Islamic faith, then that is a completely acceptable sacrifice for the world to make.
We are not obligated to protect religious belief at any and all costs.
I can't imagine any decent person thinking otherwise.
Jon

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Jaderis, posted 09-22-2014 4:49 AM Jaderis has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 138 of 432 (737320)
09-22-2014 12:38 PM
Reply to: Message 136 by Modulous
09-22-2014 10:52 AM


Re: politics
I think you have misunderstood me.
I did not mean that economic and political forces do not motivate the people of the Middle East. My point is that we should not discount the influence of religionwhich is unarguably greatby trying to understand the motives in purely western terms of economics and politics.
There are a lot of factors involved and religion is a very big one that is often overlooked by many in the west because of our own cultural prejudices that place economics and politics at the front and discount religion as something meant to guide 'spiritual' matters and not for the making of major practical decisions.
I think that handles the problems you had with my position regarding the role of politics in decision making.
Cultures don't make decisions, and people don't have access to the same information and experiences you do so you can't expect them to conclude the same things.
I just quoted you citing some statistics in another thread. To take one as an example, about 80% of people in Egypt think adulterers should be stoned. It is hard to imagine that these people are incapable of conceptualizing a non-stoning; I mean, this is what happens every time they don't stone someone. So clearly they have access to the notion that people don't have to be stoned.
They choose to ignore it for some reason or another (probably largely religion-based) and instead vote to stone folks.
What do you say?
I say that it is evil to sit by and watch people be oppressed.
Doing the right thing is the right thing to do even if the people you do it for hate you for doing it.
You seem to have misunderstood this. We're talking about how moderate Islam might not spread well, and you think one of the reasons there is difficulty is that there is 'plenty of disagreement'. My counter to this is that this is true of other comparable moderate religions and that didn't seem to be a huge problem and if it was, it worked out in the end. So, unless you have some particular reason to think Islam is exceptional in this regard, I expect the fact that religious people disagree about their made up stories is not a big barrier to the moderates getting their message accepted. If it does inhibit it, there's nothing we can do about it because that's what religion does, and we should be looking to other reasons we might be able to influence.
The problem with disagreement goes deeper than just people who can't see eye-to-eye. One of the problems with the ideals held by the moderate Muslims is that they largely arrive at those ideals after long and laborious critical analysis.
It makes the whole thing too inaccessible. In contrast (though I don't like comparing religions) moderate Christianity is very accessible; there are slogans and buzzwords that anyone can understand quickly and without thought"love the sinner, hate the sin", "turn the other cheek", etc. This is spreadable. "Sit down and listen to my drawn-out logical argument" is not.
If there is a moderate Islam, then it needs to organize itself into something meaningful that can actually compete with extreme Islam. Otherwise the whole thing is pretty much a matter of tossing about definitions and has no practical value.
Jon
Edited by Jon, : No reason given.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 136 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 10:52 AM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 1:57 PM Jon has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 139 of 432 (737325)
09-22-2014 1:15 PM


Bah!
Sharia Law Swallowing Indonesia :: Gatestone Institute
Sharia Law Swallowing Indonesia
Although Indonesia, "the world's largest Muslim country" with an 87% Muslim population, was once considered a moderate Muslim country, day by day it has been leaning more and more towards conservative Islam and Sharia laws. Initiated in 2009, bylaws in the light of Sharia rulings were implemented that conflict with the values of human rights, and are creating a difficult land for minorities to live in.
Indonesian Aceh province authorities recently launched an initiative, despite opposition from human rights activists, to ban women from straddling motorcycles when riding behind a man. Suaidi Yahia, mayor of Lhokseumawe, the second large city of the province, said to the Associated Press, "It is improper for women to sit astride. We implement Islamic law here." He later said, "women sitting on motorbikes must not sit astride: it will provoke the male drivers." Instead, they allow women to sit sidesaddle, which is dangerous on a motorcycle.
The objectives of the local authorities were apparently to prevent "showing a woman's curves;" it is against Islamic teachings, Yahia went on to say, unless it is an emergency. In a notice distributed to the government offices and villages of northern Aceh, they added that women are not allowed to hold onto the driver.
Last year, the mayor of Tasikmalaya in West Java proposed to veil all women, including non-Muslims. Mayor Syarif Hidayat vowed to implement Sharia law, to repay Muslim leaders who backed his election victory. The President of Indonesia, Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono, who is serving his second term, also relies on the support of Muslim political parties.
Sharia law is spreading throughout all of the provinces of Indonesia; citizens are enacting their own variations of Islamic laws, and applying them to non-Muslims as well.
More
It is clear--when Muslims approach a majority they start pushing. When they reach a supermajority all minority rights are in jeopardy.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

Replies to this message:
 Message 141 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 2:05 PM Coyote has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 140 of 432 (737327)
09-22-2014 1:57 PM
Reply to: Message 138 by Jon
09-22-2014 12:38 PM


Re: politics
My point is that we should not discount the influence of religionwhich is unarguably greatby trying to understand the motives in purely western terms of economics and politics.
We don't. But this is irrelevant to the point being discussed and it looks like you are just trying to complain about Islam again.
We were talking about the spread of moderate Islam. Your argument was that it can't spread because it is not complete. I dispute this. The 'influence of religion' on the area is not really relevant here because we're talking about religion. I was pointing out that liberal Islam is seen by many as a western corruption of Islam and they see the west as a bad thing and this is partly our fault.
I just quoted you citing some statistics in another thread. To take one as an example, about 80% of people in Egypt think adulterers should be stoned. It is hard to imagine that these people are incapable of conceptualizing a non-stoning; I mean, this is what happens every time they don't stone someone. So clearly they have access to the notion that people don't have to be stoned.
They choose to ignore it for some reason or another (probably largely religion-based) and instead vote to stone folks.
Yes, I was proposing that the cultures and experiences are different in that they don't understand the concept of not throwing stones. That's totally my argument. You completely destroyed that argument. Whatever am I to do?
But you are looking at a cause-effect problem here. Why is the Salafi movement being successful? Muslims haven't always been this way, it has been rising since the 80s I believe courtesy of Saudi Arabia, but really got its legs in the mid 90s and is currently having another surge. Why is that?
I say it is fuelled by anger and a sense of powerlessness and oppression. A sense of an outside group trying to impose their will and views on the group they belong to, unifying them even as they have disagreements against a perceived common enemy. What do you say?
I say that it is evil to sit by and watch people be oppressed.
Doing the right thing is the right thing to do even if the people you do it for hate you for doing it.
That's nice, but again I wasn't just asking you a general question about what you think. I was asking what you thought the reasons for the spread of Salaifist jihadism were. It's like asking about the spread of rampant anti-Semitism in Germany. There might be actual reasons we can point to. What do you think they are?
I don't know why you keep {breaking} my paragraph apart and {taking} pieces of it out of their context, but could you stop?
The problem with disagreement goes deeper than just people who can't see eye-to-eye. One of the problems with the ideals held by the moderate Muslims is that they largely arrive at those ideals after long and laborious critical analysis.
It makes the whole thing too inaccessible.
Yes, I think they call that process of laborious critical analysis, 'education'. If you start it when they're young it becomes considerably easier.
. In contrast (though I don't like comparing religions) moderate Christianity is very accessible; there are slogans and buzzwords that anyone can understand quickly and without thought"love the sinner, hate the sin", "turn the other cheek", etc. This is spreadable. "Sit down and listen to my drawn-out logical argument" is not.
I look forward to you showing me how this is absent from moderate Islam.
Let's see
"Islam is a religion of peace."
"As you would have people do to you, do to them and what you dislike to be done to you, don't do to them."
"There is no compulsion in religion"
Three that I can think of right from the top of my head with no research required.
"Sit down and listen to my drawn-out logical argument" is not.
And yet this is exactly what the Christians did to moderate their religion. They're still doing it. Most Christians don't read all that stuff, they were just told it by their pastors and parents etc. There has to be a theology (drawn out argument), but that's for the educated folks. I can't give you what the less educated liberal Muslims are saying because I imagine most of them can't speak English.
If there is a moderate Islam, then it needs to organize itself into something meaningful that can actually compete with extreme Islam. Otherwise the whole thing is pretty much a matter of tossing about definitions and has no practical value.
That is already happening, but until we know what is causing the rise of jihadist Salifism we're not going to see as much progress as we'd like. Turkey seems to be doing pretty well, there is good organisation in Egypt and hope for it in Iran.
If you have an informed critique about the level or organisation of liberal and moderate Islam, though, I'm willing to hear it.
I mean seriously, how are you reaching the conclusion that liberal and moderate Islam is not meaningful?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 138 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 12:38 PM Jon has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 9:04 PM Modulous has replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 141 of 432 (737328)
09-22-2014 2:05 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Coyote
09-22-2014 1:15 PM


Re: Bah!
It is clear--when Muslims approach a majority they start pushing. When they reach a supermajority all minority rights are in jeopardy.
Off topic and illogical. You're doing a stellar job Coyote.
Indonesia has been Muslim majority for centuries so cannot possibly support the off-topic conclusion you are reaching for.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Coyote, posted 09-22-2014 1:15 PM Coyote has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 142 by Coyote, posted 09-22-2014 3:31 PM Modulous has replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 142 of 432 (737338)
09-22-2014 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Modulous
09-22-2014 2:05 PM


Re: Bah!
It is clear--when Muslims approach a majority they start pushing. When they reach a supermajority all minority rights are in jeopardy.
Off topic and illogical. You're doing a stellar job Coyote.
Indonesia has been Muslim majority for centuries so cannot possibly support the off-topic conclusion you are reaching for.
Possibly off topic, but I doubt it. As for "illogical" -- no logic required: facts are facts.
--Has Last Christian Left Iraqi City of Mosul After 2,000 Years?
http://www.nbcnews.com/...aqi-city-mosul-after-2-000-n164856
--ISIL's Persecution of Religious Minorities in Iraq and Syria
We apologize for the inconvenience... - United States Department of State
--Homosexuals would be killed in ideal world, says speaker at society event
Page not found - The Mancunion
I could provide a lot more examples. Perhaps you should wake up and look around you.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 141 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 2:05 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 143 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 3:54 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


(1)
Message 143 of 432 (737343)
09-22-2014 3:54 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by Coyote
09-22-2014 3:31 PM


Re: Bah!
no logic required
I believe you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by Coyote, posted 09-22-2014 3:31 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 144 of 432 (737365)
09-22-2014 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Modulous
09-22-2014 1:57 PM


Re: politics
My point is that we should not discount the influence of religionwhich is unarguably greatby trying to understand the motives in purely western terms of economics and politics.
We don't. But this is irrelevant to the point being discussed and it looks like you are just trying to complain about Islam again.
We were talking about the spread of moderate Islam. Your argument was that it can't spread because it is not complete. I dispute this. The 'influence of religion' on the area is not really relevant here because we're talking about religion. I was pointing out that liberal Islam is seen by many as a western corruption of Islam and they see the west as a bad thing and this is partly our fault.
I just quoted you citing some statistics in another thread. To take one as an example, about 80% of people in Egypt think adulterers should be stoned. It is hard to imagine that these people are incapable of conceptualizing a non-stoning; I mean, this is what happens every time they don't stone someone. So clearly they have access to the notion that people don't have to be stoned.
They choose to ignore it for some reason or another (probably largely religion-based) and instead vote to stone folks.
Yes, I was proposing that the cultures and experiences are different in that they don't understand the concept of not throwing stones. That's totally my argument. You completely destroyed that argument. Whatever am I to do?
As far as the west having a hand in turning ordinary folks from good ideas, I'm not sure it matters. By refusing to accept a moderate form of Islam, the only damage they do is to themselves. Assigning blame makes for good footnotes, but it ultimately doesn't get much done.
At most it means that moderate Muslims need to work harder to spread their message and emphasize that the values they preach regarding human rights are universal and not just 'western'.
Whatever damage is done is done; whoever did it did it; we can only focus on the future.
But you are looking at a cause-effect problem here. Why is the Salafi movement being successful? Muslims haven't always been this way, it has been rising since the 80s I believe courtesy of Saudi Arabia, but really got its legs in the mid 90s and is currently having another surge. Why is that?
I say it is fuelled by anger and a sense of powerlessness and oppression. A sense of an outside group trying to impose their will and views on the group they belong to, unifying them even as they have disagreements against a perceived common enemy. What do you say?
I say that it is evil to sit by and watch people be oppressed.
Doing the right thing is the right thing to do even if the people you do it for hate you for doing it.
That's nice, but again I wasn't just asking you a general question about what you think. I was asking what you thought the reasons for the spread of Salaifist jihadism were. It's like asking about the spread of rampant anti-Semitism in Germany. There might be actual reasons we can point to. What do you think they are?
I say they are largely religious. I say this because I want to give the people living there the benefit of the doubt: It is more reasonable to see people destroying their own societies in the name of religion than in the name of sticking it to their enemy.
Perhaps the impetus was to avoid being 'western', but there are plenty of ways to do that. Digging up the darkest aspects of their religion and enacting a hell on earth for millions of people was the choice they made. They decided on being down-right self destructive and that, I think, is the result of their religious belief.
I can't give you what the less educated liberal Muslims are saying because I imagine most of them can't speak English.
Which, in fact, means that you cannot even discern whether they are liberal or not.
I mean seriously, how are you reaching the conclusion that liberal and moderate Islam is not meaningful?
Because I'm not a Muslim and I don't see it accomplishing anything for people who are.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 1:57 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 145 by Modulous, posted 09-22-2014 9:33 PM Jon has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 145 of 432 (737371)
09-22-2014 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 144 by Jon
09-22-2014 9:04 PM


Re: politics
As far as the west having a hand in turning ordinary folks from good ideas, I'm not sure it matters. By refusing to accept a moderate form of Islam, the only damage they do is to themselves. Assigning blame makes for good footnotes, but it ultimately doesn't get much done.
It's not about blame, its about cause and effect. If something we've been doing is making the situation worse, it would be wise if we considered that in our plans.
At most it means that moderate Muslims need to work harder to spread their message and emphasize that the values they preach regarding human rights are universal and not just 'western'.
Let's not blame the victims though, eh? In the current climate working any harder could get their heads cut off.
Whatever damage is done is done; whoever did it did it; we can only focus on the future.
It's difficult to pacify an angry community if you don't know why they're angry. So knowing what we've done in the past, should help inform how we act in the future.
I say they are largely religious.
You think jihadist Salifism is spreading so much because they are largely religious? I'm not sure that makes any sense.
say this because I want to give the people living there the benefit of the doubt: It is more reasonable to see people destroying their own societies in the name of religion than in the name of sticking it to their enemy.
Or they don't see themselves destroying their own societies.
Perhaps the impetus was to avoid being 'western', but there are plenty of ways to do that. Digging up the darkest aspects of their religion and enacting a hell on earth for millions of people was the choice they made. They decided on being down-right self destructive and that, I think, is the result of their religious belief.
But the question is - why that religious belief, why that darkest aspect of their religion? I'm not proposing it is to avoid being 'western'. That's my proposal for the suspicion of and reluctance to adopt, liberal and secular Islam.
I expect that, in part, they have chosen to adopt a religious perspective that justifies total war because they feel they are at war. They feel that because of the historical and present day facts on the ground previously described earlier. They are angry and scared and so they turn to a hard line nationalistic/Islamist 'We're soldiers together' type religion. I'd say it is not entirely dissimilar to the wave of nationalistic fascism that exploded as traditional empires started to crumble and collide at the start of the 20th century in Europe as the Germans felt like Europe had humiliated them and they united as Ein Volk and took it out on the weak and unpopular.
There was a terrible crime committed in my community recently. Arson at a dog's home, lots of dogs died. Community in outcry. There are thousands of people around me talking about how we should get the bastard that did and burn him. And they're being serious, even if they wouldn't do it themselves. His photo has been leaked to social media as has his full name. But he hasn't been charged with a crime. I'm following the people that are sharing this photo and they're literally performing a witch hunt, with the same traditional conclusion. I believe there was a young black man that was shot, caused sections of the community to act aggressively? I can see why the Ummah is turning the way it is, given the way these things are talked about.
Which, in fact, means that you cannot even discern whether they are liberal or not.
So now I'm expected to identify individual everyday liberal Muslims for you now? What kind of madness is this comment?
I've already given you evidence these people exist. Do I need to repeat myself?
Because I'm not a Muslim and I don't see it accomplishing anything for people who are.
Why would we expect you to, not being a Muslim, and all?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 144 by Jon, posted 09-22-2014 9:04 PM Jon has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 146 of 432 (737376)
09-22-2014 10:31 PM


Islamic State's taunting speech calls for killing civilians
The extremist group Islamic State will drive the United States to its "death, grave and destruction," a spokesman for the militants declared in a recording that also called on Muslims living in the West to kill civilians.
The extremist group Islamic State will drive the United States to its "death, grave and destruction," a spokesman for the militants declared in a recording that also called on Muslims living in the West to kill civilians.
more

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 147 of 432 (737424)
09-23-2014 5:59 PM


It’s Time to Take the Islamic State Seriously
It’s Time to Take the Islamic State Seriously

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

Replies to this message:
 Message 148 by Jon, posted 09-23-2014 7:43 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Jon
Inactive Member


Message 148 of 432 (737426)
09-23-2014 7:43 PM
Reply to: Message 147 by Coyote
09-23-2014 5:59 PM


Check...
I think we are all taking ISIS seriously.

Love your enemies!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 147 by Coyote, posted 09-23-2014 5:59 PM Coyote has not replied

  
Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 149 of 432 (737479)
09-25-2014 5:16 PM


The Amman Message and a recent Fatwa
quote:
Islam also affirms that the way of calling [others] to God is founded upon kindness and gentleness: Call to the path of your Lord with wisdom and a beautiful exhortation, and debate with them in that which is most beautiful (ahsan). (16:125) Furthermore, it shuns cruelty and violence in how one faces and addresses others:
It is by some Mercy of God that you were gentle to them. Were you severecruel-heartedthey would have broken away from you. So pardon them and ask forgiveness for them and consult with them in the conduct of affairs. And when you are resolved, put your trust in God; truly God loves those who trust in Him. (3:i59)
Islam has made clear that the goal of its message is realizing mercy and good for all people.
...
Islam calls for treating others as one desires to be treated. It urges the tolerance and forgiveness that express the nobility of the human being: The recompense for an evil is an evil equal thereto, but who forgives and reconciles, his recompense is from God. (42:40) Good and evil are not equal. Repel with what is most virtuous. Then he between whom and you there is enmity will be as if he were an intimate friend. (41:34)
....
Islam recognizes the noble station of human life, so there is to be no fighting against non-combatants, and no assault upon civilians and their properties, children at their mothers' bosom, students in their schools, nor upon elderly men and women. Assault upon the life of a human being, be it murder, injury or threat, is an assault upon the right to life among all human beings. It is among the gravest of sins; for human life is the basis for the prosperity of humanity: Whoever kills a soul for other than slaying a soul or corruption upon the earth it is as if he has killed the whole of humanity, and whoever saves a life, it is as if has revived the whole of humanity. (5:32)
...
No day has passed but that this religion has been at war against extremism, radicalism and fanaticism, for they veil the intellect from foreseeing negative consequences of one's actions. Such blind impetuousness falls outside the human regulations pertaining to religion, reason and character. They are not from the true character of the tolerant, accepting Muslim.
Islam rejects extremism, radicalism and fanaticismjust as all noble, heavenly religions reject themconsidering them as recalcitrant ways and forms of injustice. Furthermore, it is not a trait that characterizes a particular nation; it is an aberration that has been experienced by all nations, races, and religions. They are not particular to one people; truly they are a phenomenon that every people, every race and every religion has known.
We denounce and condemn extremism, radicalism and fanaticism today, just as our forefathers tirelessly denounced and opposed them throughout Islamic history. They are the ones who affirmed, as do we, the firm and unshakeable understanding that Islam is a religion of noble character traits in both its ends and means; a religion that strives for the good of the people, their happiness in this life and the next; and a religion that can only be defended in ways that are ethical; and the ends do not justify the means in this religion.
The source of relations between Muslims and others is peace; for there is no fighting permitted when there is no aggression. Even then, it must be done with benevolence,
....
...we decry the campaign of brazen distortion that portrays Islam as a religion that encourages violence and institutionalizes terrorism. We call upon the international community to work earnestly to implement inter-national laws and honor the international mandates and resolutions issued by the United Nations, ensuring that all parties accept them and that they be enacted without double standards, to guarantee the return of rights to their rightful holders and the end of oppression. Achieving this will be a significant contribution to uprooting the causes of violence, fanaticism and extremism.
....
The primary components of these policies comprise developing methods for preparing preachers, with the goal of ensuring that they realize the spirit of Islam and its methodology for structuring human life, as well as providing them with knowledge of contemporary culture, so that they are able to interact with their communities on the basis of awareness and insight: Say, 'This is my way. I, and those who follow me, call for God with insight.' (12:108); taking advantage of the communication revolution to refute the doubts that the enemies of Islam are arousing, in a sound, intellectual manner, without weakness or agitation, and with a style that attracts the reader, the listener and the viewer; consolidating the educational structure for individual Muslims, who are confident in their knowledge and abilities,
Amman Message – The Official Site
quote:
This is Not the Path to Paradise
Response to ISIS
When he is empowered, he sets out to do violence in the land, destroying crops and livestock. But God does not love violence (Qur’an, 2:205).
Beware (or Woe unto you)! Listen! Do not revert back to disbelief after I have gone that is by some of you killing others. - A statement from the Prophet, God’s peace and blessings upon him, from his last sermon given on the Farewell Pilgrimage
Whoever pledges allegiance to someone not appointed by the consultative process of the believers, neither he nor the one to whom he pledged allegiance are to be followed, out of fear of foolishly exposing themselves to being killed with them. - Umar ibn al-Khattab
Do not shed your own blood nor the blood of other Muslims along with you. Consider the eventual effects of your actions. - Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal
Some of the recommendations that came out of the Forum for Promoting Peace included the urgent and dire need to reorder the house of the Muslims and to restore its constituents on the individual, societal, and institutional levels. It also reinforced the pressing need to strengthen the immune system of the Muslim world against the extremism and violence that exists within it, regardless of where the violence is directed or how it began. The time is now for Muslim societiesindividuals and political entities to work together towards what is right and good and to place the higher interests of humanity and the world above personal interests. They must adopt dialogue and cooperation as the sole strategy to address their concerns.
...
In recent weeks and months, the incidences of violence have only accelerated and become more indiscriminate and destructive in nature, leaving no segment of society or religious community unaffected. These trends were predicted and forewarned about at the Forum, and we must quickly work to implement the suggestions and recommendations found in the papers and presentations of the participants.
Thus, for all who are troubled about the state of the Muslim world and long for its reformation, the Forum for Promoting Peace would like to remind you of and alert you to the following:
1. The responsibility of the scholars and religious authorities at this time in particular is to protect life. No sane person can remain indifferent to the loss of life and suffering in the Muslim world. What then of those who have pledged to God that they will do their part to set the world right? The reality is that much of what is happening today relies on religious justification as a pretext. The perpetrators use excommunication, allegations of treason, or claim to implement Islamic law in wartime. It appears as though these people have not heard of the tradition of Bishr bin Artah and other well-known traditions on this subject. They also accuse monotheists of polytheism, and they claim they are responding to injustices. Although the allegation of injustices is true, nevertheless their response is wrong, as it is being used for falsehoodfor dressing up error in the clothing of truth. Because some of these leaders claim to be religious figures, they are causing even greater confusion. At the same time, the media spares no effort to further muddy the waters, and so people’s judgment is skewed, and they falter. For these reasons, there is no excuse for the scholars and leaders to not fulfill their obligation to clarify matters and advise the Muslim world in order to extinguish the fires of conflict and to stop the bloodshed by uniting in truth and cooperating in what is right and good: Help one another to do what is right and good; do not help one another towards sin and hostility. Be mindful of God, for His punishment is severe (Qur’an, 5:2).
...
That is why all believers are ordered to enter into peace: O you who believe, enter wholeheartedly into peace, and do not follow in Satan’s footsteps, for he is your sworn enemy (Qur’an, 2:208).
Believers are also ordered to accept any attempts at peace: But if they incline towards peace, you [Prophet] must also incline towards it, and put your trust in God (Qur’an, 8:61). It is also very well known that the Prophet, God’s peace and blessings upon him, compromised greatly at the Armistice of Hudaybiyyah for the sake of making peace.
....
6. All forms of oppression and aggression against religious minorities are in direct contradiction to the values of our religion. In fact, Islam calls us to do well by religious minorities, to place them under our protection, and threatens those who harm them with punishment in the afterlife. This is evidenced by the track record of the Muslim world, which has no peer in history when it pertains to people living harmoniously with religious minorities, beyond what basic humanity demands of equal rights and responsibilities. Hence, any aggression of any kind or coercion to convert is unacceptable. Coerced conversion is invalid in Islamic law. Islam has nothing to do with this, as the Qur’an states, There is no compulsion in religion (Qur’an, 2:256).
This is Not the Path to Paradise
Not strictly liberal, but certainly moderate.

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


Message 150 of 432 (737649)
09-27-2014 10:43 PM


The religion of peace at it again
Iraq crisis: 'Every single Christian wants to leave'
Iraq crisis: 'Every single Christian wants to leave'
Christians in the Nineveh region of northern Iraq are unable to celebrate communion for the first time in two millennia, after Islamic State militants captured the area and took over the churches.
Canon Andrew White, vicar of the only Anglican church in Iraq, told the Telegraph that Isil have set up offices in the churches and have replaced crosses with the militant group's black flag.
"Last week there was no communion in Nineveh for the first time in 2,000 years," he said. "All [the churches] are closed, all their people have run away. It is so sad."
more

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
How can I possibly put a new idea into your heads, if I do not first remove your delusions?--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers
If I am entitled to something, someone else is obliged to pay--Jerry Pournelle
If a religion's teachings are true, then it should have nothing to fear from science...--dwise1
"Multiculturalism" does not include the American culture. That is what it is against.

  
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