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Author Topic:   Evolution or Creation
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 31 of 301 (395819)
04-18-2007 12:34 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by ICANT
04-18-2007 12:23 AM


Re: Re-Answers
Accepting the FACT of Evolution and that the Theory of Evolution is the best explanation so far on how Evolution happened has absolutely nothing to do with a belief in GOD.
You keep coming back to that.
Why?
As I have pointed out to you before, the two are unrelated. In the words of the Clergy Project Open Letter, signed by over 10,000 US Christian Clergy:
We the undersigned, Christian clergy from many different traditions, believe that the timeless truths of the Bible and the discoveries of modern science may comfortably coexist. We believe that the theory of evolution is a foundational scientific truth, one that has stood up to rigorous scrutiny and upon which much of human knowledge and achievement rests. To reject this truth or to treat it as “one theory among others” is to deliberately embrace scientific ignorance and transmit such ignorance to our children. We believe that among God’s good gifts are human minds capable of critical thought and that the failure to fully employ this gift is a rejection of the will of our Creator. To argue that God’s loving plan of salvation for humanity precludes the full employment of the God-given faculty of reason is to attempt to limit God, an act of hubris.
I am certainly not saying you should give up your belief in God, and as a matter of fact, not one of the things you listed in the OP:
ICANT writes:
That God made me so I could choose to love and serve Him just because He is God.
That man has a sin nature he inherited from Adam.
God provided a sacrifice to pay my sin debt.
Jesus the only begotten Son of God was crucified that I might be saved.
That to go to heaven I must trust in That Sacrifice.
That if I do nothing I will spend eternity in the lake of fire.
That Christ was buried and arose 3 days later.
That 40 days later he ascended into Heaven to make intercession for me.
That Jesus is coming again.
That I will be judged according to how I have done on earth and will be rewarded accordingly.
That all who have not trusted Christ will stand at the Great White Throne judgment and confess Jesus is Lord.
That all whose names are not written in the Lambs Book of Life will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
That there will be a new Heaven and Earth.
That there will be no more day or night as God will be the light.
That there will be a City, The New Jerusalem that has streets of Gold,where I will live with God for eternity.
is even distantly related to the issue of Evolution.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ICANT, posted 04-18-2007 12:23 AM ICANT has not replied

kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 32 of 301 (395821)
04-18-2007 12:37 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by ICANT
04-18-2007 12:23 AM


Re: Re-Answers
so you believe in god for your own personal gain?
that seems . . .well . . .kind of wrong to me. i would think one would believe for more than just getting eternal life. but hey, that's me.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by ICANT, posted 04-18-2007 12:23 AM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
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ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 33 of 301 (395824)
04-18-2007 12:52 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by kuresu
04-18-2007 12:37 AM


Re: Re-Answers
i would think one would believe for more than just getting eternal life. but hey, that's me.
I don't think at 9 years old I would have been thinking of personal gain. But it is a nice thing to have just because I believe Him.
So what would I gain from being an atheist, and believe I evolved from from a single cell life form, that nobody knows where it came from, how or why?

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 39 by Doddy, posted 04-18-2007 4:32 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 43 by nator, posted 04-18-2007 7:03 AM ICANT has not replied

crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 34 of 301 (395827)
04-18-2007 1:00 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by ICANT
04-18-2007 12:52 AM


Re: Re-Answers
So what would I gain from being an atheist, and believe I evolved from from a single cell life form, that nobody knows where it came from, how or why?
Nothing, probably.
But tell me this. Does jumping to the conclusion that makes you feel the best sound like a path to truth? If you think that you can decide that things are true just because of what you gain from it, what does the phrase "wishful thinking" mean to you, exactly?
Edited by crashfrog, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 04-18-2007 12:52 AM ICANT has not replied

Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3598 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 35 of 301 (395834)
04-18-2007 1:39 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
04-17-2007 10:42 PM


Granny & Gillespie
(Choir in the background hums 'Onward Christian Soldiers')
Icant:
I have believed in God every since I read the Bible for the first time at age 7. I am now 67 years old, I trusted Christ as my personal saviour at the age of 9 and received eternal life at that time and any time that ever comes to be present time.
(Choir segues to 'Little Brown Church in the Vale')
Granny used to say son you can't have your cake and eat it too.
(Segue to 'Faith of Our Fathers')
What would be the BENEFIT of my great grandson who has about 3 months to birth yet have in not believing in God and His creation and instead believing that there is no God and we just happened?
(Segue to 'Lift High the Cross.' Crescendo to fortissimo 'Amen.' Choir exit.)
(Archer settles into a chair at the jazz club. He invites the preacher into another one. The band strikes up 'It Don't Mean a Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing.' A scantily clad waitress takes the order for a Singapore Sling and a Shirley Temple.)
Thank you, Icant, for illustrating my point.
I said belief is not willed. One can't choose belief. One chooses groups. One chooses party platforms, creeds, and manifestos that tribes promote.
Your response was to proclaim the unwavering nature of your 'belief' across six decades--then invoke your relatives.
Granny would be proud, wouldn't she, to see her little boy quoting her bromides so many years after she uttered them. And it would surely thrill her to know her little boy decided everything he needed to know about the universe in second grade and has never allowed a single new idea to penetrate his skull since.
Your great-grandson will no doubt be just as grateful to his great-granddad. He may even show his gratitude in similar fashion: by never allowing a single idea his granddad never held to enter his brain. How pleased you must be at the thought of your great-grandson possessing such a steadfast, unwavering intellect. Who knows? Properly indoctrinated, great-grandson's life could link with great-granddad's and Granny's to generate over two centuries of Steadfast Human Consciousness Without a Single New Idea.
A noble family tradition indeed.
And it illustrates my point. Your OP is about tribal loyalty. Your family makes a totem of creed--a collective manifesto it mistakes for real, personal belief. The creed is a symbol for your family the same way a flag or manifesto is a symbol for a party. You simply take it for granted that this creed is the glue that has bonded one generation in your family to another.
You overestimate the effect of creed.
The truth is that family bonds run strong among human beings anyway. Families exist--I know many--where three or four different religious beliefs and non-beliefs exist in one generation. These families remain strong. Members care about each other. They are loyal to each other. They tell stories about ancestors and celebrate new births. Individuals are Buddhists, agnostics, Catholic and Protestant Christians, and atheists--yet Granny is still proud, Great-Grandbaby is still adorable, and all the beliefs are beneficial.
Your OP is not a rational discussion of belief. Its poor logic on that subject has already been exposed. What you've penned is merely a gesture of loyalty. You equate loyalty with belief, then on that faulty assumption you have gone onto a message board to grandly announce your intention to be more loyal to your flesh and blood than to anybody you meet on the message board.
So what? Most people already take the priority of family bonds as a given. Yet you feel the need to proclaim yours--to declare your intention never to betray Granny and Li'l Tater. You do this even though Granny is not on this board. Neither is Li'l Tater. There is only you.
The possibility of something new entering your head must be frightening indeed for you.
You are in a new environment. I can understand how after decades of stasis you might feel disoriented by a plurality of ideas all around you. I can understand the appeal Granny's old blanket has for you right now--the feeling of security it offers if you cling to it.
Relax. Enjoy the jazz.
____
Edited by Archer Opterix, : ordered potato skins and wasabi nuts.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : another Singapore Sling.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : requested salt peanuts and 'Salt Peanuts.'

Archer
All species are transitional.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 04-17-2007 10:42 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 68 by ICANT, posted 04-18-2007 6:09 PM Archer Opteryx has replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 36 of 301 (395846)
04-18-2007 3:43 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by Neutralmind
04-17-2007 7:58 PM


Neutralmind writes:
Spiritual benefit would be something like knowing the truth thus having a better feeling about your self,
You mean believing it is the truth to remove cognitive dissonance. This is in no way spiritual; just a reduction in autonomic arousal.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by Neutralmind, posted 04-17-2007 7:58 PM Neutralmind has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 37 of 301 (395847)
04-18-2007 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
04-17-2007 10:42 PM


Re: Re-Answers
ICANT writes:
Now this is what my God did for me.
Incorrect:
This is what you believe your god does for you. This gives you a sense of certainty and peace of mind but only because you honestly believe.
Many people simply cannot choose to believe the way you do because of myriad of reasons.
But that is not to say that the peace of mind you enjoy is not enjoyed by people who do not belive in your god.
Your implication is that your god has done you a great service and that evolution cannot do so. To people who believe as you do the benefits of having said belief can be seen (as you describe).
But, as they are a matter of belief any positive internal state you enjoy (through the peace of mind you have mentioned) can be replicated in the minds of people who do not believe in the existance of your god.
For example: when I look at my achievements in life I see it is all down to me. This makes me happy to go to my grave knowing I have done the best I can in life.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 04-17-2007 10:42 PM ICANT has not replied

Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 38 of 301 (395849)
04-18-2007 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 25 by ICANT
04-17-2007 11:31 PM


Re: Re-Answers
ICANT writes:
But jar I believe they are an accurate account of what happened in the beginning, and then at a later date.
That beleif you have appears to bring you as much peace of mind and comfort as my understanding that every atom in my body is as old as the universe does for me.
So again, no trade off.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by ICANT, posted 04-17-2007 11:31 PM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Doddy, posted 04-18-2007 4:34 AM Larni has replied

Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 39 of 301 (395853)
04-18-2007 4:32 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by ICANT
04-18-2007 12:52 AM


Re: Re-Answers
ICANT writes:
So what would I gain from being an atheist
Well, it frees up time spent at church, or praying, or giving thanks for food. But that's not really a big benefit. It also frees you from the rituals and tenets of any religious book (weddings, Christmas presents, Ten Commandments etc), or at least provides no obligation to follow it. That frees you from any messages of intolerance or ignorance preached within that holy work or by holy men , and
I guess it would also get you into heaven if the philosophical "reverse god" (who punishes thesst and rewards non-theists).
You could also get along better with atheists, which could be useful had you just fallen in love with one or if one of your family was one.
Lastly, and probably the biggest benefit, would be the exact same as you would receive with any belief - the feeling that your belief about reality actually matches reality, based upon your experience of that reality. This is the main reason why people opt for a belief, and it is entirely under the influence of what glimpses of reality they receive.
ICANT writes:
and believe I evolved from from a single cell life form, that nobody knows where it came from, how or why?
Well, the 'why' question there is useless if you already chose the above atheist idea. But if you didn't, then they why would be "because the Creator(s) willed it so" or something like that.
Anyway, the main benefit of accepting the idea that you are descended from an ancient microbe is the same as the main one for atheism - it matches what you see in reality.
Another benefit is that it allows you to understand the rest of biology much better. As Theodosius Dobzhansky said in the title of his famous paper: "Nothing in biology makes sense except in the light of evolution" (I suggest you read that paper if you can get it; Dobzhansky was a theistic evolutionary biologist). Without evolution, the only explanation is "That was how it was created", but with no 'how' it came to be.
Lastly, it is could offer much better experiences with plants and animals, as you would know that they were once your relatives, and aren't really that different from you. Compare this to the idea that man can do whatever he likes to animals or the environment, because he was given "dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth." (Genesis 1:26). Note it says dominion, as in dominate, not custody or care.

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This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Doddy
Member (Idle past 5910 days)
Posts: 563
From: Brisbane, Australia
Joined: 01-04-2007


Message 40 of 301 (395854)
04-18-2007 4:34 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Larni
04-18-2007 4:03 AM


Re: Re-Answers
That beleif you have appears to bring you as much peace of mind and comfort as my understanding that every atom in my body is as old as the universe does for me.
This is off-topic, but your atoms are likely much younger, formed in nuclear fusion in stars rather than in the Big Bang.

Help inform the masses - contribute to the EvoWiki today!
Contributors needed in the following fields: Physical Anthropology, Invertebrate Biology (esp. Lepidopterology), Biochemistry, Population Genetics, Scientific Illustration, Scientific History, Philosophy of Science, Logic and others. Researchers also wanted to source creationist literature references. Register here!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Larni, posted 04-18-2007 4:03 AM Larni has replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 41 of 301 (395859)
04-18-2007 6:24 AM
Reply to: Message 40 by Doddy
04-18-2007 4:34 AM


Re: Re-Answers
Okay, the constituents of my atoms were first present milliseconds after the big bang

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Doddy, posted 04-18-2007 4:34 AM Doddy has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 42 of 301 (395860)
04-18-2007 6:36 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by ICANT
04-17-2007 10:42 PM


Re: Re-Answers
Do you accept the Germ Theory of Disease?
Do you accept the Atomic Theory of Matter?
Do you accept the Theory of a Heliocentric Solar system?
All of these scientific theories contradict the Bible, too.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by ICANT, posted 04-17-2007 10:42 PM ICANT has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 43 of 301 (395866)
04-18-2007 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by ICANT
04-18-2007 12:52 AM


Re: Re-Answers
quote:
I don't think at 9 years old I would have been thinking of personal gain.
Nine year old kids are some of the most selfish creatures that exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 33 by ICANT, posted 04-18-2007 12:52 AM ICANT has not replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 49 by Larni, posted 04-18-2007 11:45 AM nator has replied

ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 44 of 301 (395877)
04-18-2007 9:22 AM
Reply to: Message 43 by nator
04-18-2007 7:03 AM


Re: Re-Answers
I think 9 year old kids are very vulnerable to indoctrination, rather than coming to a conclusion on their own too. Get them young, and they are yours forever.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by nator, posted 04-18-2007 7:03 AM nator has not replied

fallacycop
Member (Idle past 5521 days)
Posts: 692
From: Fortaleza-CE Brazil
Joined: 02-18-2006


Message 45 of 301 (395879)
04-18-2007 9:28 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by ICANT
04-18-2007 12:23 AM


Re: Re-Answers
No one listens to it just as everybody is ignoring the questions I set out in the beginning op.
quote:
What benefit would it be for me to renounce God and creation and embrace Atheism and evolution?
For that matter what benefit is derived by anyone choosing Atheism and Evolution over God and Creation?
Your question makes no sense, even if (for your benefit ) we ignore the false dicotomy fallacies in there.
The truth is the truth. It's not out there for your benefit. (What a self-serving, small minded, (dare I say anti-christian?) way to look at reality, I must say).
But why would you ask that? I think you already know that you cannot think of any good reasons not to believe in evolution. But you're scared of it. You know evolution doesn't necessarily mean atheism, but you're scared it might lead you that way.
It's a scary thought, to think that there might be nothing waiting for you after death. If that's the truth, would you chose not to know it if you could?

This message is a reply to:
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