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Author Topic:   Which More 3LoT Compatible, Cavediver's Temp.Non-ID Or Buzsaw's Infinite ID Universe
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 211 of 304 (644105)
12-15-2011 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 203 by Buzsaw
12-13-2011 10:32 PM


Re: BB Model Case Closed
Buz writes:
There is a zero net change in the total entropy of the closed system (Universe), thus satisfying compatibility to the 1st Law Of Thermodynamics.
Buz can you explain how there is no net increase in entropy within the universe when absolutely everything going on around you is resulting in an increase in the total entropy?
I've just picked up a cup. The total entropy within the universe has increased as a result.
How are you getting round this rather inconvenient fact?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 203 by Buzsaw, posted 12-13-2011 10:32 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 1:07 PM Straggler has replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 212 of 304 (644106)
12-15-2011 8:33 AM
Reply to: Message 210 by Buzsaw
12-14-2011 8:22 AM


Re: Infinite energy again
I've just rubbed my hand across the desk and there most definitely was friction and an increase in the entropy of the universe as a result.
So how is the net entropy within the universe not increasing Buz?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by Buzsaw, posted 12-14-2011 8:22 AM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 215 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 1:16 PM Straggler has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 213 of 304 (644136)
12-15-2011 1:07 PM
Reply to: Message 211 by Straggler
12-15-2011 8:32 AM


Re: BB Model Case Closed
Straggler writes:
Buz can you explain how there is no net increase in entropy within the universe when absolutely everything going on around you is resulting in an increase in the total entropy?
My bad. I posted this without thinking that it is only the total energy of the system does not change.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 211 by Straggler, posted 12-15-2011 8:32 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 214 by Straggler, posted 12-15-2011 1:10 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 214 of 304 (644137)
12-15-2011 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 213 by Buzsaw
12-15-2011 1:07 PM


Re: BB Model Case Closed
So do you agree that the total entropy is increasing?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 213 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 1:07 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 215 of 304 (644139)
12-15-2011 1:16 PM
Reply to: Message 212 by Straggler
12-15-2011 8:33 AM


Re: Infinite energy again
Straggler writes:
So how is the net entropy within the universe not increasing Buz?
The ID entity, engineering (compatible to the 2nd Law) system) effects a fluctuation of the net entropy of the system, the net change in the system's energy remaining at zero as per the first law of thermodynamics .
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edited by Buzsaw, : strike out "net"

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 212 by Straggler, posted 12-15-2011 8:33 AM Straggler has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 216 by Straggler, posted 12-15-2011 1:25 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


Message 216 of 304 (644142)
12-15-2011 1:25 PM
Reply to: Message 215 by Buzsaw
12-15-2011 1:16 PM


Re: Infinite energy again
Buz writes:
The ID entity, engineering (compatible to the 2nd Law) system) effects a fluctuation of the net entropy of the system....
What does that even mean?
Buz given that every event ever observed results in an increase in the total entropy within the universe how on Earth can your eternal universe not be in a state of equilibrium (i.e. maximum entropy)?
Are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting the observed increases in entropy by reducing the entropy of the universe in some unseen way?
Buz writes:
....the net change in the system's energy remaining at zero as per the first law of thermodynamics.
Yes you have already stated that the total energy in your model remains constant. But your model still obviously defies the second law of thermodynamics.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 1:16 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 217 of 304 (644161)
12-15-2011 6:00 PM


Re: Amazing Effects Of Increased Entropy
Straggler writes:
Buz given that every event ever observed results in an increase in the total entropy within the universe
Oh. So you've observed entropy increasing uniformity for the 1st 13 1/2 BYA? What did the Universe look like 4 1/2 BYA? How about 5 BYA? You've observed all that exists, beyond the range of our telescopes, etc? You've observed chaos and disorder advancing all of the way up to the order and complexity that we have, including the primordial stuff forming into orderly stars, planets, etc,? You've observed primordial soup coming to life all the way to now? You've observed what set off a submicroscopic hot chaotic speck suddenly appearing to expand into all of the order and wonderment observed?
You're an amazing person to observe all of that magic, Straggler. Was that in your other life? If ever increasing entropy can do all of that naturally, who should want an engineered decrease in entropy?
Edited by Buzsaw, : Change punctuation and eliminate word

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

Replies to this message:
 Message 218 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-15-2011 6:19 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 220 by Meddle, posted 12-15-2011 8:17 PM Buzsaw has replied
 Message 225 by Straggler, posted 12-16-2011 6:04 AM Buzsaw has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 218 of 304 (644163)
12-15-2011 6:19 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Buzsaw
12-15-2011 6:00 PM


Re: Amazing Effects Of Increased Entropy
But the fact that we never see a magical decrease in net entropy surely is significant, just as the fact that we've never seen a winged pig is relevant to the question of whether there are pigs with wings.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 6:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 219 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 7:49 PM Dr Adequate has replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 219 of 304 (644166)
12-15-2011 7:49 PM
Reply to: Message 218 by Dr Adequate
12-15-2011 6:19 PM


Re: No Net Entropy Seen
Dr Adequate writes:
But the fact that we never see a magical decrease in net entropy surely is significant, just as the fact that we've never seen a winged pig is relevant to the question of whether there are pigs with wings.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The fact is that nobody has seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-15-2011 6:19 PM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-16-2011 12:15 AM Buzsaw has not replied
 Message 224 by PaulK, posted 12-16-2011 1:36 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Meddle
Member (Idle past 1270 days)
Posts: 179
From: Scotland
Joined: 05-08-2006


(1)
Message 220 of 304 (644168)
12-15-2011 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 217 by Buzsaw
12-15-2011 6:00 PM


Re: Amazing Effects Of Increased Entropy
So what you are saying is, we don't know if there is an overall increase in entropy, therefore the second law of thermodynamics is wrong, and that is why your model of the universe is not compatible with the laws of thermodynamics?
Edited by Malcolm, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 6:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 11:36 PM Meddle has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 221 of 304 (644184)
12-15-2011 11:36 PM
Reply to: Message 220 by Meddle
12-15-2011 8:17 PM


Re: Amazing Effects Of Increased Entropy
Malcolm, I said this in response to Dr. Adequate's statement:
quote:
The fact is that nobody has seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity.
Malcolm, I ask you the same question. Have you seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity?

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.
Someone wisely said something ;ike, "Before fooling with a fool, make sure the fool is a fool."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 220 by Meddle, posted 12-15-2011 8:17 PM Meddle has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by hooah212002, posted 12-15-2011 11:48 PM Buzsaw has replied

  
hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


(2)
Message 222 of 304 (644185)
12-15-2011 11:48 PM
Reply to: Message 221 by Buzsaw
12-15-2011 11:36 PM


Re: Buz is a fucking moron
Have you seen a rain drop form? Have you seen a magic sky wizard design a universe?
Edited by hooah212002, : No reason given.

Put the FSM back in Chrifsmas

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 11:36 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 226 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2011 8:26 AM hooah212002 has replied

  
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 223 of 304 (644191)
12-16-2011 12:15 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Buzsaw
12-15-2011 7:49 PM


Re: No Net Entropy Seen
The fact is that nobody has seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity.
The fact is that no-one hasn't seen a net increase in entropy. This is all we ever see. This is why the second law of thermodynamics is considered a law of nature and not a science-fiction story about an alternative universe. Because we always see it happening.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 7:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 224 of 304 (644193)
12-16-2011 1:36 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by Buzsaw
12-15-2011 7:49 PM


Re: No Net Entropy Seen
quote:
The fact is that nobody has seen a net increase in entropy since the alleged singularity.
Of course that's not true. Increases in net entropy are all around us. The sun, just by shining, increases net entropy - radiating huge amounts of energy into empty space. And that is just one of many, many stars. It is the reversible thermodynamic events which do not increase entropy that are the rarity. Your universe, where no increases in net entropy ever occur is not ours.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 7:49 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 225 of 304 (644204)
12-16-2011 6:04 AM
Reply to: Message 217 by Buzsaw
12-15-2011 6:00 PM


Re: Amazing Effects Of Increased Entropy
Every event ever observed results in an increase, never a decrease, in entropy. Every single time you do anything (lift a cup, type on your computer, walk down the road etc.) entropy increases. Never decreases. As the Sun and all of the other stars blaze away total entropy increases. Never decreases.
Do you understand this? Do you dispute this?
Every event ever observed results in an increase, never a decrease, in total entropy. That is what we observe. And that is what the second law of thermodynamics tells us will always be the case.
So given that every event within the universe results in an increase in entropy how on Earth can your eternal universe not be in a state of equilibrium (i.e. maximum entropy)?
Are you suggesting that this designer of yours is secretly offsetting ALL of the observed increases in entropy by reducing the entropy of the universe in some unseen and unobservable way?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 217 by Buzsaw, posted 12-15-2011 6:00 PM Buzsaw has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 228 by Buzsaw, posted 12-16-2011 8:59 AM Straggler has replied

  
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