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Author Topic:   Evolution is simply more magnificent than your religion
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3895 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 31 of 60 (540239)
12-22-2009 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by slevesque
12-22-2009 8:54 PM


Re: Origins of science
christianity is one of the few, if not the only, framework that would make it possible for it to arise
If by Christianity you mean the particular trend in Catholic thought that bred the Renaissance, then yes, you are absolutely right. This trend is called Humanism. If you were a Humanist, we would not be having this argument, though.
If you were even in agreement with the current Catholic trend, which is not Humanism but rather a rational form of Fundamentalism, we still would not be having this argument. It is only because you have chosen the most irrational form of Fundamentalism, namely Literalism, Evangelical variety, that you are in this boat. You have wilfully chosen to believe a lie, because you would rather have a God that you can understand and label than a real transcendent one.
This is the "Christianity" that burned the Alchemists and persecuted Galileo, the Christianity that would have rather not have the Bible translated, the Xianity that goes to whatever means are necessary to keep men in absolute bondage to their own ignorance. This is the pseudo-faith that gave us the Auto-da-fe and the Inquisition and still gives us cross-burnings and clinic-bombings.
"A man, though naked, may yet be in rags."
I can't remember the name of the guy who found it,
Hippasus. Yeah, they threw him off the boat. He fucked up their fiat quantum theory. Theodorus, Eudoxus and Euclid cleaned him up a bit though, their rationalization was that magnitudes aren't the same as particles. Real quantum theory eventually cleaned them up in turn, turns out magnitudes are waveforms, the real solution is a lack of perfect exponents (no real right angles for example, curved dimensions only, very good ellipses rather than real circles.)
Anyway, note that the Greeks knew more than the Church ever even had time to get around to burning people for. Heraclitus knew that matter was energy ("fire") and even Ovid knew that the earth was round.
Metamorphoses writes:
Then God (whichever God it was,
That could do the things that this one does)
Wanting all things equal, each in all
Rolled all that shit into a ball ...
Edited by Iblis, : the shadows of men's thoughts lengthen in the afternoon

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 32 of 60 (540240)
12-22-2009 9:33 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by slevesque
12-22-2009 8:54 PM


Re: Origins of science
Yeah I know the proof of irrational numbers. I can't remember the name of the guy who found it, but I do remember he was thrown overboard by pythagoreans lol. His proof did make it's way to us though.
Well, there are two versions of this story --- one is that the Pythagoreans drowned him, the other that they offered a sacrifice of a hundred oxen to their gods in thanksgiving. I have not been able to discover the primary source for either of these stories, but the fact that we have the proof suggests that, if either, the latter has more of truth in it.
But in any case, it is absurd to say that "Greek philosophy rejected irrational numbers" when all the mathematical writings of the Greeks that have come down to us accepted them.
They had just as much evidence for heliocentricism then Copernic. The only reason that they stuck with geocentricism was for philosophical reasons, that epicycles were that perfect circular arrangement and that it was philosophically fit that the earth was at the center.
Who are "they"? There were Greek heliocentrists, as I have noted.
Just as the only reason why they favored Aristotle's ''water,fire,air,earth'' composition of matter over Democrites atom idea was also for philosophical ideas (space couldn't possibly exist between the atoms)
Again, who are "they"? The Epicurean school taught atomism until they were shut down by that unpleasant Christian bigot the Emperor Justinian.
As for the further history of atomism:
In 1624 the Paris Parliament decreed that persons maintaining or teaching atomism, or any doctrine contrary to Aristotle, would be liable to the death penalty.
It wasn't the pagans who shut down the Epicureans, or introduced the death penalty for atomism. It was Christians.
They had none of the two primary axioms of science (laws exist and are constant in time) ...
What makes you say that? They were certainly aware of the constancy of nature, so much so that some proposed an eternal universe.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


Message 33 of 60 (540246)
12-22-2009 11:03 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by slevesque
12-22-2009 7:18 PM


Re: It is subjective
Two fundamental christian suppositions is that: A God does not change, he is forever consistent. and B. God upholds his creation.
But my dear chap ...
A look through the Bible shows that not only is God constantly breaking his own laws (turning water into wine, making donkeys talk, that sort of thing) --- and not only does he also delegate this power to his chosen saints and prophets --- but also he lets other much less savory people go about breaking them (the witch of Endor, Pharaoh's magicians, Simon Magus).
Consequently, Christians were able to attribute whatever they couldn't understand to God, saints, demons, and witches.
What you just described is Deism.
This doesn't mean that the christian worldview is therefore true (or better). But it means that science is simply the continuation of the belief in the Christian God.
I shall have something to say about that in a moment, but first I must attend to my parsnips.
Hence why any christian who understands this will never be affraid of science, nor oppose science and faith.
Except that you yourself would claim, presumably, to understand the doctrine that you've just enunciated, and you spend most of your time on these forums running away from science as fast as your legs will carry you.
Edited by Dr Adequate, : No reason given.

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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4189 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 34 of 60 (540247)
12-22-2009 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 23 by iano
12-22-2009 6:35 PM


Re: Imaginary superbeings don't add anything to the wonder of it all
iano writes:
Briterican writes:
So basically, those who don't believe in the Christian God are fools who subsequently worship men and birds and animals and reptiles?
..as the man said, when people don't believe in God they don't believe in nothing, they believe in anything. That said, unbelievers do believe in God all the time. I mean, everytime an atheist believes in his heart that murder is wrong and is appalled when he hears of the murder of another, he believes God and the foolishness that comes from not believing God isn't his. Remember, unbelief is a progressive thing - as the passage indicates through the use of the word 'become'.
Plenty of people don't believe in God. But that's different from believing in your heart there is no God. Such people are indeed fools - they've completely turned away from that knowledge of God installed in them by God.
Why would an atheist have any belief in a god if he doesn't believe murder is right? If I believed in your god, I wouldn't think murder was wrong, because hes uses it all the time and even orders men to murder others. I believe murder is wrong because I wouldn't want it done to me, my family or my friends. I don't believe in anything, I accept which has evidence and reject that which has none. I am skeptical of things that have possible evidence but that this evidence is lacking in concreteness such as alien beings from outer space.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by iano, posted 12-22-2009 6:35 PM iano has replied

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Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 284 days)
Posts: 16113
Joined: 07-20-2006


(1)
Message 35 of 60 (540251)
12-23-2009 12:02 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by iano
12-22-2009 6:35 PM


Re: Imaginary superbeings don't add anything to the wonder of it all
That said, unbelievers do believe in God all the time. I mean, everytime an atheist believes in his heart that murder is wrong and is appalled when he hears of the murder of another, he believes God and the foolishness that comes from not believing God isn't his.
Oh, don't be silly.
That's exactly why I don't believe in God.
A reasonably moral man who was in the neighborhood of the murder would do everything he could to stop it. But you invite me to believe that a perfectly moral being who is permanently in all neighborhoods at once and can stop whatever he likes sits on his hands instead. Well, either he isn't good, or he isn't everywhere, or he has no power to intervene, any of which disqualifies him from being God as traditionally defined.
It's precisely the fact that I'm appalled at evil that makes belief impossible for me, and I never believe less in the possibility of God than when I hear of such things.

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Replies to this message:
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 4990 days)
Posts: 917
From: London, UK
Joined: 04-14-2006


(1)
Message 36 of 60 (540267)
12-23-2009 5:49 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Briterican
12-18-2009 5:19 PM


I've always been confused at how feeble God's intervention in our affairs has been of late. If he wants us to believe in his existence now then why does he rely on the disjointed and contradictory writings of Bronze or Iron age people to educate us?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Briterican, posted 12-18-2009 5:19 PM Briterican has replied

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 37 of 60 (540271)
12-23-2009 7:25 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by iano
12-21-2009 6:51 PM


Especially when you suspect that the purpose of his creation is to cause wonder and humilty to arise in his created beings.
So...all that just to look good in front of his creations?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 10 by iano, posted 12-21-2009 6:51 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


(1)
Message 38 of 60 (540306)
12-23-2009 2:17 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RickJB
12-23-2009 5:49 AM


Why doesn't God try harder? The believers have a nonsense answer for this
RickJB writes:
I've always been confused at how feeble God's intervention in our affairs has been of late. If he wants us to believe in his existence now then why does he rely on the disjointed and contradictory writings of Bronze or Iron age people to educate us?
Agreed. The believers would tell you that it is a test of faith. So... somehow... in their twisted logic... the individuals who are not free-thinkers and do not question things or seek evidence, but instead throw rationality aside and embrace unsupported mystical notions - they are the ones that God will favour. If God wanted us to blindly worship him and not ask the deep questions, why the hell did he (purportedly) give us big brains?
It simply doesn't make any sense. But that's what happens when you try to make sense of completely arbitrary, made-up stuff.
Edited by Briterican, : Spelling fail.

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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 801 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 39 of 60 (540308)
12-23-2009 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Briterican
12-23-2009 2:17 PM


Re: Why doesn't God try harder? The believers have a nonsense answer for this
I've been accused of being ignorant (by my semi-creationist girlfriend and her brother) for questioning the bible. Har-Har.

Who are we? We find that we live on an insignificant planet of a humdrum star lost in a galaxy tucked away in some forgotten corner of a universe in which there are far more galaxies than people
-Carl Sagan
For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring.
-Carl Sagan

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Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 40 of 60 (540315)
12-23-2009 5:27 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by RickJB
12-23-2009 5:49 AM


now you see me ......now you don't.....
Hi Rick
If he wants us to believe in his existence now then why does he rely on the disjointed and contradictory writings of Bronze or Iron age people to educate us?
Because the Bronze Age was the last time we could be collectively hoodwinked by Him? Once the Bronze Age passed and science gathered pace, honest scepticism replaced primitive awe on a culture-wide basis, leaving only isolated groups still 'believing the myths'.
And it hasn't taken long for us to outgrow God's own knowledge (read Job 38 for a hilarious insight into God's idea of how the cosmos works....did you know there are storehouses for all the hail he keeps in case of war?).
A way to really awe us is to appear with his 'magic' now - in the 21st century when our science can do more justice than those poor Bronze Age guys. I await with baited breath.....

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Drosophilla
Member (Idle past 3641 days)
Posts: 172
From: Doncaster, yorkshire, UK
Joined: 08-25-2009


Message 41 of 60 (540316)
12-23-2009 5:43 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Briterican
12-23-2009 2:17 PM


Re: Why doesn't God try harder? The believers have a nonsense answer for this
Hi Brit,
Agreed. The believers would tell you that it is a test of faith. So... somehow... in their twisted logic... the individuals who are not free-thinkers and do not question things or seek evidence, but instead throw rationality aside and embrace unsupported mystical notions - they are the ones that God will favour. If God wanted us to blindly worship him and not ask the deep questions, why the hell did he (purportedly) give us big brains?
Indeed. And to quote Dawkins "Wouldn't God value open and honest scepticism more highly than blind obedience?"
Wouldn't God appreciate his creations valuing science? Because if there is a God who created the entire Universe with its laws etc, He would have to be the mother of all scientists Himself....wouldn't He consider that His creations were the pinnacle of success if they too followed in His footsteps? Is that not the goal of every parent - to create offspring who can follow, emulate and hopefully, surpass even your own talents? Not cower, grovelling at your feet in feeble-minded submission and ignorance. If my children prostrated at my feet worshipping and revelling in ignorance, too frightened to question anything I instructed, I would feel ashamed....ashamed that as a creator I had not designed a more robust thinking being, and ashamed that I had psychologically induced them to fawning status!
There's nothing magnificent in that for me. Science wins hands down. I think one of the most awe-inspiring facts is that our bodies (just stardust from maybe an earlier supernova)can evolve materialistically to the point where it becomes sentient - to then think about its own origins....that is awesome indeed!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Briterican, posted 12-23-2009 2:17 PM Briterican has replied

Replies to this message:
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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 42 of 60 (540708)
12-27-2009 10:06 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Drosophilla
12-23-2009 5:43 PM


A relevant quote to wrap up this thread
Drosophilla writes:
I think one of the most awe-inspiring facts is that our bodies (just stardust from maybe an earlier supernova)can evolve materialistically to the point where it becomes sentient - to then think about its own origins....that is awesome indeed!
Truly awe-inspiring indeed!
I'd like to summarise the idea I tried to present in the original post with a particularly relevant quote I came across. I feel that this elucidates the intricate connectivity of all life on this planet in a way that might even put a smile on a creationist's face.
Consider this a "wrapping-up" of the thread, and thanks to all for your thoughts.
--- the quote is preceded by an explanation of the origin of carbon atoms in supernovae as given earlier in the thread ---
Paul Davies writes:
"Since the Earth formed, its material has not remained inert. Carbon, hydrogen, nitrogen and oxygen are continually recyled through the atmosphere and crust by geological and biological processes. When an organism dies and decays, its atoms are released back into the environment. Some of them eventually become part of other organisms. Simples statistics reveal that your body contains about one atom of carbon from every milligram of dead organic material more than 1,000 years old. This simple fact has some amazing implications. You are, for example, host to a billion or so atoms that once belonged to Jesus Christ, or Julius Caesar, or the Buddha, or the tree that the Buddha once sat beneath.
Next time you look at your body, reflect on the long and eventful history of its atoms, and remember that the flesh you see, and the eyes you see them with, are literally made of stardust."
Edited by Briterican, : No reason given.

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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 43 of 60 (540733)
12-28-2009 9:04 AM
Reply to: Message 35 by Dr Adequate
12-23-2009 12:02 AM


Re: Imaginary superbeings don't add anything to the wonder of it all
iano writes:
That said, unbelievers do believe in God all the time. I mean, everytime an atheist believes in his heart that murder is wrong and is appalled when he hears of the murder of another, he believes God and the foolishness that comes from not believing God isn't his.
Dr. Adequate writes:
Oh, don't be silly. That's exactly why I don't believe in God.
The reason you don't believe in God is that evidence permitting you to conclude God exists isn't available to you. That evidence, I'd suggest, needs to take the form of God turning up personally at your 'door' and rendering you certain of his existance. Nothing less will do. And so, the reason stated for your not believing in God isn't actually the reason why you don't believe in God.
But this isn't about believing in God. This is about believing God. IF God exists AND your finding murder wrong derives from a God given conscience THEN you believe God on the matter in question. Even though you don't believe in God.
There is nothing silly about the statement once the IF is considered true. And true it can very well be.
-
A reasonably moral man who was in the neighborhood of the murder would do everything he could to stop it. But you invite me to believe that a perfectly moral being who is permanently in all neighborhoods at once and can stop whatever he likes sits on his hands instead.
Well, either he isn't good, or he isn't everywhere, or he has no power to intervene, any of which disqualifies him from being God as traditionally defined.
As ever, this "one bottle short of a six-pack" dilemma is easily countered by the suggestion that God finds it good (in the sense of a primary positioned good) that man be given the option to express his will. For without that option there is no man. And no man means no morality and not even this supposed dilemma.
The fact of your objection demands the ability to express your will in objection. But you're supposing a good God shouldn't give man that ability.
-
It's precisely the fact that I'm appalled at evil that makes belief impossible for me, and I never believe less in the possibility of God than when I hear of such things.
As mentioned, the point was that your being appalled can be considered to derive from a God-given conscience - in which case you'd be believing God on the matter about which you are appalled - if not believing IN God.
Believing and believing in are two quite separate things. It was the former I was referring to.
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-23-2009 12:02 AM Dr Adequate has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Peepul, posted 12-28-2009 11:21 AM iano has replied
 Message 48 by bluescat48, posted 12-28-2009 11:55 AM iano has replied
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iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 44 of 60 (540735)
12-28-2009 9:15 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by bluescat48
12-22-2009 11:40 PM


Re: Imaginary superbeings don't add anything to the wonder of it all
Bluescat48 writes:
Why would an atheist have any belief in a god if he doesn't believe murder is right? If I believed in your god, I wouldn't think murder was wrong, because hes uses it all the time and even orders men to murder others.
Perhaps you could explain how God can murder. He does kill people, granted (indeed, not a person dies by any means without his say so). But killing isn't always murder. Could you bridge the gap?
-
I believe murder is wrong because I wouldn't want it done to me, my family or my friends.
A belief that is but a subset of the overarching area in which you believe God, I'm afraid. The result of an installed sense of "do unto others..." to which you respond positively (at times)
-
I don't believe in anything, I accept which has evidence and reject that which has none. I am skeptical of things that have possible evidence but that this evidence is lacking in concreteness such as alien beings from outer space.
Presumably you'd be equally awe-struck as Drosophilla..
quote:
I think one of the most awe-inspiring facts is that our bodies (just stardust from maybe an earlier supernova)can evolve materialistically to the point where it becomes sentient - to then think about its own origins....that is awesome indeed!
..in which case you're supposing that a mechanism (your brain) which has arisen in the manner above is able to accurately determine that it has arisen in the manner above.
Doesn't this cause alarm bells to sound off somewhere?
Edited by iano, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 34 by bluescat48, posted 12-22-2009 11:40 PM bluescat48 has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Briterican
Member (Idle past 3949 days)
Posts: 340
Joined: 05-29-2008


Message 45 of 60 (540736)
12-28-2009 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 44 by iano
12-28-2009 9:15 AM


Re: Imaginary superbeings don't add anything to the wonder of it all
iano writes:
quote:I think one of the most awe-inspiring facts is that our bodies (just stardust from maybe an earlier supernova)can evolve materialistically to the point where it becomes sentient - to then think about its own origins....that is awesome indeed!
..in which case you're supposing that a mechanism (your brain) which has arisen in the manner above is able to accurately determine that it has arisen in the manner above.
Doesn't this cause alarm bells to sound off somewhere?
No. Why should it?
Alarm bells should start going off when people throw unsubstantiated things, unsupported by evidence into the mix... like your God, who you so cheerily claim above does not allow a single person to die without his say so. An extraordinary claim, completely and utterly unsupported by evidence. Forget alarm bells, you need air raid sirens.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 44 by iano, posted 12-28-2009 9:15 AM iano has replied

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