Universe Race

Hi everyone!I'm going to make a couple requests then close this thread until noon eastern time US so enough people have a chance to see it.To those explaining modern cosmology, some of the participants do not accept the explanations. Whether this is for good or bad reasons is not the issue. The explanations look very good in my judgement, and I'm sure lurkers are finding and will continue to find them helpful, so please don't drift off-topic into personal criticisms.To those questioning the explanations of modern cosmology, please confine your questions to matters of science and do not drift into off-topic swipes at science or other members.This thread will reopen at 12:00 PM Eastern Time US. When it reopens I'll be issuing short suspensions to those who fail to follow these requests.Please, no replies to this message.

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

Please follow requests in my previous message. Thanks!

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--	Percy
	EvC Forum Director

I have done so... I have asked you to consider the Virgo Supercluster...Now I admit, I do take on faith that the Copernican Principle applies to all other superclusters. Those few exceptions being the entire Virgo Supercluster - By "us" I assume you are referring to the entire Virgo Supercluster? If not, please explain. By "us" I assume you are referring to the entire Virgo Supercluster? If not, please explain.Let's just go back to my first post to you: Can you reply to this point now? Really? Where is the centre of S¹ or S² or T² ? That comment seems to reveal an extreme ignorance of basic relativistic cosmology. Needless to say, it is completly incorrect. And what would this boundary look like? What would space look like in the vicinity of this boundary? Here's a thing - scientists don't read books on their science - they write and publish papers, and fellow scientists in that field then read those papers. Care to reference any published cosmological papers that refer to the big bang as a physical explosion? No? I'm sorry, what is a "well-established law"? I work with evidence based theories. If the most successful theories in science demonstrate that some "laws" don't always apply, guess which is at fault? If that same theory includes multiple things that can be observed, then yes, of course it is - unless you have good evidential reasons for rejecting it - reasons that just seem to elude virtually the entire cosmological community... You do know that the reason the big bang was so badly received in its early days was becasue of how it smacked of creationism?And are you describing the millions of Christians who accept scientific explanations as God's methodology as following a godless philosophy? Really? Can one not be born again if one accepts the big bang cosmology? I don't know - I'll let you know when I get to everyone...

Could somebody straighten me out please?QuestionsIs density the compacting of matter or energy?Can matter be created out of anything other than energy?Can energy be created out of anything other than matter?Was it necessary for all matter to be at T=O in some form? If not, why not?StatementsThere was a starting point for this proposed race called T=O.At T=O there was something about the size of a pea that contained everything in the observed and the unobserved universe.For some unknown reason this pea sized universe began to expand.It has continued to expand until this day.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi cavediver, HereYou said: HereYou said: Whatever that something at T=O was it is said to be about the size of a pea.It is said to be the entire universe.If it was compressed by any means, this compression had to be released in order for everything to take off at the speed of light.If it was not compressed, how would you get everything in there?
Then how would you get it up to the speed of light?Or did we start off at a slower pace and increase to the speed of light?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Look, let's tighten this up before this gets out of hand. No, the Universe has already expanded immensely before it reaches the size of a pea. It's just that by time it reaches this size, we have a good idea of what is going on.At the size of a pea, the Universe is already enormous compared to what it was. In fact, at the size of a pea, the Universe has already finished most of its expansion - the pea to the size of the Universe today is nothing compared to the expansion that took it up to the size of a pea... (pea to today is expansion of ~10²⁷ times. Planck scale to pea is ~10³² times) There was no compression. The Universe starts in this state.There is no release of compression - the Universe expands because it is just following the shape of the four dimensional space-time, which gets wider as we move to larger time coordinates.And the expansion occurs immeasurably faster than the speed of light. Nothing is moving so there is no speed to get up to... space is simply expanding. The almsot perfectly uniform distribution of energy across the Universe simply becomes less and less dense as space expands.

Thanks cavediver, What caused space to start to expand?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hold a globe in your hands. Point your finger to the North pole. Trace your finger down one of the lines of longitude. Notice how the circles of latitude expand as you go down? What makes them expand?

You're still approaching this from the perspective of being bound to time linearly. You can't conceptualize spacetime that way.Spacetime is a 4-dimentional "object" (sorry, I don't have a better word) that posesses a certain shape. As time increases from 0, the other three dimentions are larger.It's just like plotting a line on a graph, where y = 2x. In this case, as x increases, y would become larger still. There is no "cause" for y to increase - that's just the way the line is when it's plotted on a graph.So too is spacetime. As time (T) increases from 0, the other dimentions of length (L) width (W) and height (H) increase. I can't make a 4-dimentional graph visually, so let's just make 3 seperate 2-dimentional graphs. On each, the x axis will represent time, and the y axis will represent L, W, or H. Get out some graph paper, and plot these very simple lines:L = 2TW = 2TH = 2TIf you plot these out, you'll see that when T=0, so do L, W and H. As T increases, so do L, W and H. There is no cause - that's just the shape of the line.Now, none of our current math really makes sense if L, W and H are all 0. That's what we call a singularity - we're simply unable to describe the conditions of the Universe in that instance with our current models.You're having trouble because we humans of necessity only experience time linearly, from one moment to the next. It's hard to visualize spacetime because we're basically stuck in it. To reuse the balloon example, you're a 2-dimentional dot painted on the skin of the balloon, and you have no way other than mathematics to see the real shape of the balloon.In cosmology, if I understand correctly, we're more trying to look at all of spacetime at once, as a single "object," with various coordinates of T, L, W, and H. At the coordinate T=0, L, W and H are extremely small. At the coordinate T=now, L, W and H are much larger.Cavediver: please correct me as necessary for what follows. This is how I'm conceptualizing everything so far, but I'm certain there are gross inaccuracies. Hopefully I'm not as far off as ICANT You don't necessarily need a "cause" for the shape of spacetime to change as time moves. The shape of spacetime is the result of everything that affects the shape of spacetime (meaning primarily mass through gravity, as I understand), but this affects spacetime as a whole, not just in certain time coordinates.There's no "force" that holds the Universe in it's small state - it's been expanding straight from T=0. There isn't necessarily even a "force" that drives the expansion - spacetime simply has a certain shape, and our observation of L, W and H increasing as time goes on is simply the consequence of being "trapped" in a single direction of time to that we observe the shape of spacetime linearly, instead of as a discrete entity that simply exists.Cavediver, am I anywhere close?

Hi cavediver, This has got to be another one of those trick questions.They do not expand, they do not move at all. Everyone is in a fixed position.But since they are imaginary lines that are there for navigation purposes, what does that have to do with my question?What caused (influenced) space to start to expand?BTW was it expanding at the speed of light or faster?In Message 111 you stated: Does this expansion take place before T=O or after T=O?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Rahvin, OK, what caused time to start?God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Why don't you save everybody some time and just ask, "Why does the universe exist?"

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If I had a million dollars, I'd buy you a monkey.
Haven't you always wanted a monkey?
-- The Barenaked Ladies

Perhaps this analogy will work. Imagine the Earth as a ball of bread, with the lines of latitude as markings for cutting slices. As you cut the lines of latitude, progressing southward, the slices would get larger (expand) as you approach the equator. It was used as an analogy.Abe: And thank you to Cavediver, Rahvin and others for contributing your time and knowledge. I've been lurking, reading your responses. They're a great read. Edited by Infixion, : No reason given.

Hi Chiroptera, Because I know the answers to that question.One being that we can sit in front of our monitors and discuss all the wonderful things about the universe, life, and politics here at EvC, having a gracious and forgiving host like Percy.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Hi Infixion, That is one lousy analogy. The globe is round and nothing moves.You guys like analogies.So how about trying an experiment that will show what I mean when I talk about the expansion beginning.The next time you get in your car to go somewhere I want you to put your key in the ignition. Do not turn the key. I want you to sit in that car until it starts by itself.That is what you are saying happened to that something that the universe expanded from.God Bless,

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."