The Unbended Curved Bar Space Slugout Thread

The point is that the need for 4D is required whatever the answer to the questions may be. Your ongoing inability to recognise this is just becoming increasingly embarrassing......However have it your way. 1. In curved space it would have to exist in that curved space and so would itself be curved. In non-curved space it would not.2. In a curved 4D spherical universe yes. In a non-curved universe no.I hope that answers your questions.The fact that whether space is curved or non-curved you still need a 4D model remains true Jesus you are one stubborn old dude. A child can see that 3 dimensions are insufficiant. Regardless of curvature bent bars or anything else. How many times do I have to repeat this?If you want to model motion you must use a 4D model. 3 spatial co-ordinates and one time co-ordinate. 4 axes. 4 dimensions. Without this you cannot model changes in 3D position as time progresses. You cannot model velocity. You cannot model acceleration. It just cannot be done.YOUR 3D MODEL OF THE UNIVERSE CANNOT REPRESENT OBJECTS MOVING. IT IS NO MODEL AT ALL. IT IS A JOKEWhen we say a 4D model all we mean is that time is represented by an axes on a graph in the same way that the 3 spatial dimensions are. This allows a time component which makes it possible to model change in time. This is required regardless of curvature and regadless of any bent straight bar theories.4D is not the evil ungodly cause of everything you object to here. That is the point. You have repeatedly said the use of 4D is unjustified obfurscation, mathematical bamboozlement, a huge con trick and all sorts of other wild (and quite frankly insulting) assertions.4D is used because 4D is absoluetly essentail to any viable model. Your ongoing inability to grasp this incredibly simple concept really does make you look foolish.

This isn't about your model Buz, thats further down the line once we establish whether or not you can count to 4.

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soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

1. What would curve it, even considering your spacetime argument? It's extension is instant, having nothing whatsoever to do with the non-spatial time dimension.2. The bar does not move. It just extends.The questions remain unanswered:1. What property of space would curve the suddenly extended bar?2. What would cause the bar's 2 ends to connect?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

See message 228.

I mean assuming it had enough energy to extend continuously, perpendicular to it's event horizon.

Codegate responds to me:

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Well, I doubt you will ever get a definition of straight from those you are asking, so I will give it a go on their behalf.

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A line (or bar) is considered straight if any two planes that are perpendicular to the line are also parallel.

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That doesn't help. As you say, all you've done is replace one undefined concept, "straight," with another undefined concept, "parallel." As the examination of Euclidean geometry has shown us, "parallel" is an axiomatic property and is not derived. It is because of changes to the Fifth Postulate that we came up with non-Euclidean geometries.^*Since we're dealing with space rather than imposing a mathematical construct, it would be more helpful if we could come up with a physical definition.At any rate, what we really need is an answer from Buzsaw himself:"Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum.Does he agree with that definition or not?^* And even then, the Fifth Postulate doesn't mention the concept of "parallel." Instead, it simply says that if two straight lines are crossed by a transversal such that the interior angles on one side are less than two right angles, then the two straight lines, if extended indefinitely, will meet on that side. From this, we can derive what we commonly know as "parallel," but notice how the concept is constructed.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Like I said, once we establish your ability to count to 4 we'll go over why your model is bullshit.Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

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soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

The curvature of space

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soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry
Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

Hey BuzI'm trying to understand what you mean by dimensionally straight.By my thinking, 'straight' is the shortest distance between any two points.So, if you had a perfectly straight iron bar and you picked any two points on that bar, you could say that the shortest path between those two points follows the bar.Does this match your definition?Thanks!

All photons 'extend continuously', irrespective of their energy. That's what they do - until they are absorped by something, that is.The photon will follow the straighest line through space and will whip around the black hole and arrive back at its starting point and will endlessly orbit. If you start constructing a perfectly straight bar along this direction, you will end up making a loop

Hi Cogegate. My bar model would have two ends which would be the points of the straight bar.If you've been reading you will see that I showed where Merriam Webster gave two somewhat different definitions of straight, (a) being the most common and (b) being the linear curvature rendition of the word/term compatible with the mainline BB physics POV. I believe the first would be considered the Newtonian definition which I go by on the bar model which is the more realistically coherent to reality of the 3 spatial dimensions of the Universe.The buck stops with the BBT (Big Bang Theory) so far as spacetime curvature etc. I'm little David going for the temple of Goliath with my smooth little stone on this one. I'm convinced that I'm on the side of the truth and the BBT (Goliath) with all the kings men of the Philistines (mainline science community) are vulnerable, having thrown the logic and sense baby out with the bathwater so far as making sense in science goes.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Of course, factoring in the time dimension. What about my sudden extension bar model where time is not a factor relative to my recent posts?

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Buzsaw responds to cavediver:

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Of course, factoring in the time dimension.

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Time has nothing to do with it.

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What about my sudden extension bar model where time is not a factor relative to my recent posts?

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As soon as you define what "straight" means, we can determine what happens to those two ends."Straight" is defined as the path a photon takes in vacuum.Do you agree with this definition or not?

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

I don't see that as a forthright answer. Your answer isn't making much sense. How about rephrasing it for clarification.Since time wouldn't be a factor, we need to know what causes the bar model to allegedly curve and it's ends to connect.As I understand it, you people have been agreeing that a 3D model would not curve without the time dimension causing the curvature.

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BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The immeasurable present eternally extends the infinite past and infinitely consumes the eternal future.

Buzsaw writes:

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we need to know what causes the bar model to allegedly curve and it's ends to connect.

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The nature of space does it, it would seem.Second question: If we carried out this experiment of yours and found that the ends connected, how would that affect your claim?

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As I understand it, you people have been agreeing that a 3D model would not curve without the time dimension causing the curvature.

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Incorrect. Time really has nothing to do with it.

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Rrhain

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Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.