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Author Topic:   Prophecy re-visited
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 46 of 71 (148845)
10-10-2004 8:43 AM


any takers ?
OK, Mike's obviously not interested in giving his definition of a valid prophecy. Any other Christians / 'unbelievers' want to contribute ?
Purpledawn, I'll wait one more day for any replies and then I'll be happy to discuss the temple prophecy, if you still wish to.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-10-2004 10:44 AM Legend has replied
 Message 49 by AdminNosy, posted 10-10-2004 10:58 AM Legend has replied
 Message 50 by Brian, posted 10-10-2004 12:08 PM Legend has replied

  
Primordial Egg
Inactive Member


Message 47 of 71 (148862)
10-10-2004 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Legend
10-10-2004 8:43 AM


Re: any takers ?
I'd just like to point out that my prophecy came true yesterday.
My name is Primordial Egg, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
PE

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Legend, posted 10-10-2004 8:43 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 48 by NosyNed, posted 10-10-2004 10:54 AM Primordial Egg has not replied
 Message 51 by Legend, posted 10-10-2004 12:17 PM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 48 of 71 (148864)
10-10-2004 10:54 AM
Reply to: Message 47 by Primordial Egg
10-10-2004 10:44 AM


Rock solid you think?
My name is Primordial Egg, king of kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!
Careful, the last guy who said that ended up on the floor all broken up. No one put him back together either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-10-2004 10:44 AM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 49 of 71 (148866)
10-10-2004 10:58 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by Legend
10-10-2004 8:43 AM


Didn't see you sneak in
Welcome Legend. I didn't see you sneak in (maybe I missed the grand entrance and welcome from others. I'll go wildly off topic here and greet you.
At this point I should be doing the "please review forum guidelines etc" thing but it is apparent from your posts just above that you're going to do well. With the tone you have projected to Mike could I as that you make a particular point of paying attention to the Bootcamp to help those who would like to earn a ticket out of it? Thanks for the help.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Legend, posted 10-10-2004 8:43 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 52 by Legend, posted 10-10-2004 12:43 PM AdminNosy has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 50 of 71 (148878)
10-10-2004 12:08 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Legend
10-10-2004 8:43 AM


Re: any takers ?
Hi Legend,
Valid prophecy = Whenever someone's god puts words in their mouth.
Since no one can prove or disprove that there are gods, then every prophecy is valid.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Legend, posted 10-10-2004 8:43 AM Legend has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 53 by Legend, posted 10-10-2004 1:23 PM Brian has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 51 of 71 (148880)
10-10-2004 12:17 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by Primordial Egg
10-10-2004 10:44 AM


Re: any takers ?
Hey PE,
you just had to rub it in didn't you ?
we played so bad, it was painful to watch!
P.S you even got the score right, I'm impressed!

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 47 by Primordial Egg, posted 10-10-2004 10:44 AM Primordial Egg has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 52 of 71 (148884)
10-10-2004 12:43 PM
Reply to: Message 49 by AdminNosy
10-10-2004 10:58 AM


Re: Didn't see you sneak in
Hi Nosy,
thanks for the welcome and the kind words!
I had a brief look at the Bootcamp forum, but I'm afraid I didn't fully understand its purpose. Is it a 'debating skills practice' forum? If so, how can I help ?
P.S one question: It seems that my username is associated with a number of postings by another 'Legend' dating back to 2002. I only registered on May 2004. Is that normal? can I get rid of these postings?
thanks, L

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 49 by AdminNosy, posted 10-10-2004 10:58 AM AdminNosy has not replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 53 of 71 (148906)
10-10-2004 1:23 PM
Reply to: Message 50 by Brian
10-10-2004 12:08 PM


Re: any takers ?
Hi Brian,
I see your point. But what happens when a prophecy does not come to pass? What does that suggest about the credibility of the god who 'inspired' the prophecy ?

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 50 by Brian, posted 10-10-2004 12:08 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 54 by Brian, posted 10-10-2004 2:00 PM Legend has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 54 of 71 (148920)
10-10-2004 2:00 PM
Reply to: Message 53 by Legend
10-10-2004 1:23 PM


Re: any takers ?
I see your point. But what happens when a prophecy does not come to pass?
In the Old Testament, the prophet was supposed to be stoned to death, but this did not always happen.
The OT says that God will send false prophets to test Israel, so Yahweh has all the angles covered. If a prophecy fails then it was a false prophet that Yahweh may or may not have sent, either way, Yahweh cannot lose.
Brian

This message is a reply to:
 Message 53 by Legend, posted 10-10-2004 1:23 PM Legend has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 10-10-2004 2:02 PM Brian has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 55 of 71 (148922)
10-10-2004 2:02 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by Brian
10-10-2004 2:00 PM


Re: any takers ?
Actually, in the OT, even if the prophecy came true but the prophet was uncredentialed, you were supposed to kill him.
Shoot the messenger syndrome.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 54 by Brian, posted 10-10-2004 2:00 PM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 56 by Brian, posted 10-10-2004 3:30 PM jar has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 56 of 71 (148929)
10-10-2004 3:30 PM
Reply to: Message 55 by jar
10-10-2004 2:02 PM


Re: any takers ?
Hi Jar,
Actually, in the OT, even if the prophecy came true but the prophet was uncredentialed, you were supposed to kill him.
Yes, this is down to Yahweh's testing of His people, apparently.
Deut. 13:1-5
1 If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you a miraculous sign or wonder, 2 and if the sign or wonder of which he has spoken takes place, and he says, "Let us follow other gods" (gods you have not known) "and let us worship them," 3 you must not listen to the words of that prophet or dreamer. The LORD your God is testing you to find out whether you love him with all your heart and with all your soul. 4 It is the LORD your God you must follow, and him you must revere. Keep his commands and obey him; serve him and hold fast to him. 5 That prophet or dreamer must be put to death, because he preached rebellion against the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt and redeemed you from the land of slavery; he has tried to turn you from the way the LORD your God commanded you to follow. You must purge the evil from among you.
What about this for a 'Heads God wins Tails you lose'
Deut. 18:15-22
15 The LORD your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among your own brothers. You must listen to him. 16 For this is what you asked of the LORD your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, "Let us not hear the voice of the LORD our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die."
17 The LORD said to me: "What they say is good. 18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers; I will put my words in his mouth, and he will tell them everything I command him. 19 If anyone does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name, I myself will call him to account. 20 But a prophet who presumes to speak in my name anything I have not commanded him to say, or a prophet who speaks in the name of other gods, must be put to death."
21 You may say to yourselves, "How can we know when a message has not been spoken by the LORD ?" 22 If what a prophet proclaims in the name of the LORD does not take place or come true, that is a message the LORD has not spoken. That prophet has spoken presumptuously. Do not be afraid of him
Remembering that God passes on false prophecies to some prophets, these poor guys believed that God was telling them the truth, yet the prophecy didn't come to pass and they were killed!
Shoot the messenger syndrome.
Cue Italian Job 'It's the self-preservation society'
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 55 by jar, posted 10-10-2004 2:02 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 57 by jar, posted 10-10-2004 3:38 PM Brian has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 57 of 71 (148931)
10-10-2004 3:38 PM
Reply to: Message 56 by Brian
10-10-2004 3:30 PM


OT but too good to pass up.
Cue Italian Job
Speaking of the original, the greatest chase sequence ever filmed, period. I still marvel at the culvert scene.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 56 by Brian, posted 10-10-2004 3:30 PM Brian has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 58 of 71 (149034)
10-11-2004 4:35 AM


Another problem with prophecy
One major problem I have with prophecy in the Old Testament is that many prophets say something like ' If you do X, then Y will not happen'
But, if the people do 'X', how do they know that action had any effect on the possible occurrence of 'Y'?
'Y' may not have happened regardless of whether 'X' was carried out.
Personally, I do not think there is a fulfilled prophecy, in the context of a prediction, in the entire Bible.
Brian.

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Legend, posted 10-11-2004 8:17 AM Brian has replied

  
Legend
Member (Idle past 5006 days)
Posts: 1226
From: Wales, UK
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 59 of 71 (149086)
10-11-2004 8:17 AM
Reply to: Message 58 by Brian
10-11-2004 4:35 AM


Re: Another problem with prophecy
Hi Brian,
wouldn't this be covered by the Probability criterion, where we would examine the probability of the event's occurrence?
quote:
2. Probability. Prophecy must predict events that are unlikely to come true in the timeframe and circumstances prophecised.
If, for example, the prophecy was :
'if you do X, then tomorrow morning the sun will not rise'
the event in question is the non-rising of the sun. As the probability of this occurring is miniscule, I would have no problem with accepting this prophecy.
If the prophecy was:
'if you do X, tomorrow morning your car won't start'
the event in question is the failure of my car to start. As my car has been known to do this occasionally, I would say that the probability applied to this event is not small enough, for me to accept this prophecy.
Brianj writes:
Personally, I do not think there is a fulfilled prophecy, in the context of a prediction, in the entire Bible.
Personally, I agree. However, there are people who claim the opposite. I would like some of these people to discuss why they think so.

"In life, you have to face that some days you'll be the pigeon and some days you'll be the statue."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 58 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 4:35 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Brian, posted 10-11-2004 11:10 AM Legend has not replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4959 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 60 of 71 (149102)
10-11-2004 11:10 AM
Reply to: Message 59 by Legend
10-11-2004 8:17 AM


Re: Another problem with prophecy
HI
I would like some of these people to discuss why they think so.
I think it is certain to be circular, but it would be interesting to see some sort of criteria from a believer for testing a prophecy.
Of course the Old Testament is quite clear about what a true prophecy is.
The prophecy has to be spoken in Yahweh's name and it has to come to pass.
But, prophecy is a great gimmick, the intellectual contortions and cognitive dissonance displayed by individuals as they try to justify a prophecy is great entertainment.
Good luck with your question, catch you later.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 59 by Legend, posted 10-11-2004 8:17 AM Legend has not replied

  
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