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Author Topic:   Free will: an illusion
iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 76 of 309 (321815)
06-15-2006 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 74 by Heathen
06-15-2006 10:36 AM


We consider making a decision without information to be free will
This is not my position Crevo. By all means carry on with the assumption, but please remove the reference to it being my position if you intend to do so. Its probably better to remove reference to my position altogether seeing as I am not partaking in the thread.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 10:36 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 11:18 AM iano has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 77 of 309 (321824)
06-15-2006 11:11 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by ikabod
06-15-2006 10:40 AM


Ikabod writes:
if god is all powerful can he not change the rules that we live with in a "bubble" of free will , that at the same time he knows all but we have free will... he made the universe so he can set the rules ,given he is outside time every thing may be a massive now with out past or future from god view point.. all events are similtanious.
so.. 'with god all things are possible'? if thats the best you can do, there really is no point. IF every time an obstacle appears you magic it away by gods super powers.. there really is no point in discussion.
If God is outside time, past present future is simulanteous, like reader holding a book (to use Ianos favourite analogy) time as he looks at it is everchanging, as a consequence of our decisions. but yet, god knows (as he is all knowing) what every change will be, when and where it will happen... the same argument stands.. it is all foreknown, I have the choice of A or B, God knows I will choose A, it is inevitable.
the choice is an illusion. because the only outcome will be A, there is no option for B. god knows this. otherwise God is wrong.
Ikabod writes:
only if you wish to analyis your choice and you assume that there is a right or wrong one ... if you had all the info , would you pick a bad choice just to exersize your free will ?...
According to Xian teaching there most definitely is a right and a wrong one. I concede that we do not need all the information to make a choice. However.. Is is fair or just for God to ask us to choose or not choose based upon little more than hearsay? he "wants that all should be saved".. great.. I'm sure that most people would want to be saved, I am also sure that some people would not choose that path even if god appeared nightly on his own chat show. But as it stands, God chose to communicate with us through a 2000 year old text which is merely a rough translation, an interpretation of what was written. It tells me things like If I wear cloth made from different yarns it is an abomination, if I eat shellfish it is an abomination, etc. what exactly is there to imply that this book is little more than a collection of folk tales and the equivalent of public information broadcasts...
Ikabod writes:
as point 2 , if you have free will you can make a uninformed choice ... you nwant to be able to pick your choice based on so scale ... but what scale do you want .. and even nthen .. with free will you can still pick any choice
Look.. according to the fundamentalists here (who this thread is aimed at) we cannot even determine geology correctly, genetics is something we misunderstand because we are fallen, In fact our own understanding of morality (tolerance of homosexuality, sexual equality) goes against the bible and is a result of our inability to see what is right. IF this is in fact correct, what makes you so sure you can choose, in an informed, intelligent way, whether or not to follow god... what makes you so sure you can even recognise God?
Edited by Creavolution, : fixed quotes

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by ikabod, posted 06-15-2006 10:40 AM ikabod has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 124 by ikabod, posted 06-16-2006 9:07 AM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 78 of 309 (321828)
06-15-2006 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by iano
06-15-2006 10:51 AM


apologies.. done
of course you could alway join in and explain your position on these three points?
come on... you know you want to...

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 10:51 AM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 12:57 PM Heathen has replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 79 of 309 (321831)
06-15-2006 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Heathen
06-14-2006 4:56 PM


My 2 cents worth
Creavolution writes:
1) Free will is an Illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make.
so destiny is set in stone? Perhaps...but if so, why even make any decisions at all?
2) Without the relevant information to make an informed choice our 'Free will' is not free at all.
Good point. We make do with the information that we have, as well as our intuitions.
3) Without the ability to even discern what information is correct (due to our 'fallen state'), free will is irrelevant, pointless, wasted. and point 2 doesn't even come into play.
Assuming that we are fallen, the Bible supports the view that no one seeks God. I believe that God finds us...we never find Him.

“There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, "Thy will be done," and those to whom God says, "All right, then, have it your way” --C.S.Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Heathen, posted 06-14-2006 4:56 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 12:59 PM Phat has replied
 Message 100 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 3:42 PM Phat has not replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 80 of 309 (321877)
06-15-2006 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by Heathen
06-15-2006 11:18 AM


apologies.. done
No apologies necessary. Thanks
.. and explain your position on these three points? Come on... you know you want to...
Its less a question of wanting to and more a question of not being able to. You said:
1) Free will is an illusion, since God knows what will happen, what choices we will make.
Patently if free will is an illusion then the idea that there are choices to be made is an illusion too. God would know what will happen alright and what we are going to do - not choose to do. If not 'choose to do' then you had to write what you had to write and I am writing what I have to write.
It seems to me that would be no 'me', no 'position', nothing to 'explain' - just instinctual (read programmed) machines doing what programmed machines do. Programmed machines cannot explain anything. They are unable
Not that it seems to be holding anyone back here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 11:18 AM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:04 PM iano has replied
 Message 101 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 3:50 PM iano has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 81 of 309 (321879)
06-15-2006 12:59 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Phat
06-15-2006 11:28 AM


Re: My 2 cents worth
phat writes:
so destiny is set in stone? Perhaps...but if so, why even make any decisions at all?
precisely... this is the problem with an all knowing god supposedly giving us free will... either
a)there is no all knowing god, or
b)We do not really have free will.
phat writes:
Assuming that we are fallen, the Bible supports the view that no one seeks God. I believe that God finds us...we never find Him.
The idea I have heard mooted by certain Xians who wish to remain un referred to, is that, God reaches out to us, we make the 'decision' whether or not to take him up on his offer. But god knows what decision we will make, so in Effect he creates us (or some of us)knowing that we will not choose him. or choose to accept his advances. i.e. doomed to eternal hell..
Nice.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Phat, posted 06-15-2006 11:28 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 1:08 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 121 by Phat, posted 06-16-2006 3:10 AM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 82 of 309 (321883)
06-15-2006 1:04 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by iano
06-15-2006 12:57 PM


iano writes:
It seems to me that would be no 'me', no 'position', nothing to 'explain' - just instinctual (read programmed) machines doing what programmed machines do. Programmed machines cannot explain anything. They are unable
If (what i believe) your idea of god to be exists... then yes.. exactly. We are nothing more that programmed machines playing out what he knows will happen. He created us with fallen judgement. so even if our choices actually represent free will.. they are hopeless as we cannot judge whether or not we make the right decision.
You are saved? How do you know this.. by your own definition of the fallen state of mankind, your judgement will not allow you to discern this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 12:57 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 1:14 PM Heathen has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 83 of 309 (321884)
06-15-2006 1:08 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by Heathen
06-15-2006 12:59 PM


Re: My 2 cents worth
we make the 'decision' whether or not to take him up on his offer.
I'm afraid your off-target again Crevo. This is not my positon either.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 12:59 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:21 PM iano has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 84 of 309 (321888)
06-15-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Heathen
06-15-2006 1:04 PM


Your leaping ahead Crevo. If a machine then you cannot have an "opinion" or a "thought" or "explain" or any of the other things "you" are taking for granted here. You just said what the programme spat out. It has no worth as such. Gobbeldymook
Only if free will isn't an illusion can you even begin to talk about the boundaries in which that free will might operate.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:04 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:24 PM iano has replied
 Message 102 by PurpleYouko, posted 06-15-2006 3:56 PM iano has not replied

rgb
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 309 (321889)
06-15-2006 1:14 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by rgb
06-15-2006 1:17 AM


Re: Question directed at christians not like jar
Myself writes
quote:
First of all, look up the word "impale" and "impalement" on google.
Say that I am the dark prince Dracula. I give you two glasses of wine, one red and one blue. I tell you that you have a choice of either drinking out of one or the other, but not both. However, if you choose to drink the blue glass, I will impale you alive. But if you drink out of the red glass, I will give you money.
In such situation, have I given you "free will"?
Again, does free will include eternal damnation for those that chose not to believe? One "real" christian has already answered. I'm sure there are more than one here. Any other taker?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by rgb, posted 06-15-2006 1:17 AM rgb has not replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 86 of 309 (321893)
06-15-2006 1:21 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by iano
06-15-2006 1:08 PM


Re: My 2 cents worth
From your recent discussion with PY:
iano writes:
The only way out is to desert and join the other side
iano writes:
If you are lost however it is that you have rejected his gospel.
iano writes:
Consider yourself sliding down a slope to Perdition - for that is what you are on. God reaches out to arrest your fall but your struggle free. He grasps a hold of your hand but you bite it and force him to release his grip. In releasing he is respecting your choice at that point. Occasion after occasion he tries to grasp you. You have free will: you can struggle free of his attempt to save you or you can do nothing...God saves man / man damns himself
iano writes:
...that would interfere with your free will to reject.
So we do "choose" to reject...if we don't choose to reject our choice is to accept...
Edited by Creavolution, : 'or' to 'our' in last line

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 1:08 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 1:37 PM Heathen has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 87 of 309 (321895)
06-15-2006 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by iano
06-15-2006 1:14 PM


iano writes:
Your leaping ahead Crevo. If a machine then you cannot have an "opinion" or a "thought" or "explain" or any of the other things "you" are taking for granted here. You just said what the programme spat out. It has no worth as such. Gobbeldymook
Which is exactly why your worldview makes no sense to me..
In the absence of an all knowing-creator god however.. we do have true free will.
iano writes:
Only if free will isn't an illusion can you even begin to talk about the boundaries in which that free will might operate.
And your world(God)view suggests.. even requires that free will is an illusion. so either free will is an illusion or you world(God)view is incorrect.
I believe the latter.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 1:14 PM iano has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by sidelined, posted 06-15-2006 1:33 PM Heathen has replied
 Message 92 by iano, posted 06-15-2006 2:01 PM Heathen has replied

sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 88 of 309 (321898)
06-15-2006 1:33 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Heathen
06-15-2006 1:24 PM


Creaevolution
In the absence of an all knowing-creator god however.. we do have true free will.
Have you heard of Benjamin Libet?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:24 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:59 PM sidelined has replied

iano
Member (Idle past 1940 days)
Posts: 6165
From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland.
Joined: 07-27-2005


Message 89 of 309 (321901)
06-15-2006 1:37 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Heathen
06-15-2006 1:21 PM


Re: My 2 cents worth
So we do "choose" to reject...if we don't choose to reject our choice is to accept...
I don't hold so. Of course again, you may conclude that that must be the case - but without referring to it as being my positon. For it is not.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 1:21 PM Heathen has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by Heathen, posted 06-15-2006 2:01 PM iano has replied

Heathen
Member (Idle past 1283 days)
Posts: 1067
From: Brizzle
Joined: 09-20-2005


Message 90 of 309 (321915)
06-15-2006 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by sidelined
06-15-2006 1:33 PM


nope

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by sidelined, posted 06-15-2006 1:33 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
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