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Author Topic:   Abortion questions...?
LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 46 of 403 (328815)
07-04-2006 4:38 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Modulous
06-29-2006 3:35 PM


Mody man
Hey mody, i'm going to get-around-to-it and delve into this post of yours. You brought up some interesting answers.
Modulous writes:
Depends on your local laws
National law in the USA makes it legal in medical or choice situations, though I remmber something about the good old state of south dakota banning most kinds of abortions (though penalties for illegal abortions in that state are as of yet unknown, at least to me)
In a sense, it does depend on national law or local ones, but you have to be careful how that works. Under former USSR National law, it was illegal to speak against the state (they might have labeled it "terrorism" or "treason", ) and therefore sending someone who has done so to a Gulag (nasty soviet work camp) wouldn't be seen as murder, but "execution". In Vlad Tepes' ("Vlad the Impaler" also "Vlad Dracula)rule of Wallachia (in romania) it wasn't "murder" to impale so many turks that the area that it occured became known as "the forest of the impaled" (Though Vlad's crimes have been under scrutiny)
And I hate to use these guys again (forgive me) but in Nazi Germany, Killing Jews, Gypsies, Russian soldiers, Free Masons, Gays, Possibly Lesbians, some Catholic clergy and other Christians, Slavs, Communists, and probably a whole lot more in concentration camps was not "murder" in Nazi law, but "extermination".
Modulous writes:
The guy was born, and thus human
Yeah, but I keep hearing people say how you become a human being after being birthed out of the woman. If a guy is making love, a part of him is partially back in, albiet in another female. So if the birth canal has the ability (magic?) to make a fetus human, then a guy making love to a woman should be considered a little less human.
Modulous writes:
If it is an animal, then it is human.
Grizzly bears and Lions are animals, not humans. My dog believes he's human, but his body and frame is like a lions.
Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.
Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.
Edited by LudoRephaim, : No reason given.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Modulous, posted 06-29-2006 3:35 PM Modulous has replied

Replies to this message:
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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 47 of 403 (328850)
07-04-2006 8:47 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by rgb
06-29-2006 1:22 PM


to add to what Chiroptera said,
Does anyone here know why very late term abortion is medically necessary?
To prevent death or sever injury to the mother.
To end a pointless pregnancy - the fetus is so genetically damaged that it will not survive much longer on its own anyway.
To end a less than optimum pregnancy, where disabilities will affect the life of the parents as well as the child, so that the resources can be directed to having a healthy baby.
To end a pregnancy where the life situation of the mother has changed and she will no longer be able to provide and support a child.
There are probably as many reasons as there are abortions - it is the right of the mother to decide in the end.
Why do so many pro-lifers have abortions?
Enjoy.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

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This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by rgb, posted 06-29-2006 1:22 PM rgb has replied

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 48 of 403 (328851)
07-04-2006 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
06-29-2006 12:51 PM


I am asking this because some say that a fetus isn't human until after it is born. If the fetus/baby is born halfway, is it human or not??
Where the distinction occurs between fetus and baby, is when the {was fetus} is cut off from the life support system of the mother -- it takes a breath on its own and its heart beats to pump blood on its own, closing off an opening that allowed the mothers blood to flow through the fetus.
At this point the baby is capable of being raised by any person, while before then they were dependent solely and completely on the mother.
If a Fetus is not human, ...
It has human DNA, it is not a human being because it is not an independent individual (yet).
Hypothetically, if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a fetus, all the way to an embryo, is a human being, would you still support a woman's right to choose?
Hypothetically this cannot be proven.
The fetus is not an independent individual. A late term fetus can approach this condition - when a preemie can be born and survive (with no harm to from or function) would be a lower limit.
being
To exist in actuality; have life or reality: I think, therefore I am.
There is a point in development before which thought is not possible eh?
One could also argue that until a child has reached the age of 10 it is not fully human as it is generally not able to fend for itself, live on its own, survive without adult assistance.
If it was made legal to end the life of a 1-10 year old kid if the parent/parents make that choice, would you be for or against it?
It is legal for parents to withhold potentially life saving medical procedures and this can result in death of the child, even if the "child" is an adult. This is usually done for religious reasons, but it could also be done in the case of sever disabilities or after accidents, especially when there is no brain functioning.
Further reading on my position is at the {Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion} thread
EvC Forum: Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion
Enjoy.

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This message is a reply to:
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Modulous
Member
Posts: 7801
From: Manchester, UK
Joined: 05-01-2005


Message 49 of 403 (328868)
07-05-2006 1:52 AM
Reply to: Message 46 by LudoRephaim
07-04-2006 4:38 PM


Re: Mody man
In a sense, it does depend on national law or local ones, but you have to be careful how that works...In Vlad Tepes' ("Vlad the Impaler" also "Vlad Dracula)rule of Wallachia (in romania) it wasn't "murder" to impale so many turks that the area that it occured became known as "the forest of the impaled" (Though Vlad's crimes have been under scrutiny)
The question you asked didn't address right or wrong, only legal status, so I answered it appropriately. Euthanasia is mostly murder, but some people consider it the correct ethical thing to do in some cases. Likewise, people consider the civillian deaths in Iraq to be murder, whereas others consider it part and parcel of a legal war.
Yeah, but I keep hearing people say how you become a human being after being birthed out of the woman. If a guy is making love, a part of him is partially back in, albiet in another female. So if the birth canal has the ability (magic?) to make a fetus human, then a guy making love to a woman should be considered a little less human.
But the man has been born. Sex is not being unborn (even partially), you cannot be unborn any more than you can unrun for the bus by walking the next day. Being born doesn't mean 'passing through the birth canal', since this does not happen in some births (though Macbeth might argue the contrary).
Humourosly, the French call the orgasm 'the little death'. But no, there is no reason to consider a man making love as a little less human.
Grizzly bears and Lions are animals, not humans. My dog believes he's human, but his body and frame is like a lions.
The 'it' referred to a human fetus. If a human fetus is part of the animal kingdom it is certainly a human.

This message is a reply to:
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CK
Member (Idle past 4128 days)
Posts: 3221
Joined: 07-04-2004


Message 50 of 403 (328920)
07-05-2006 10:43 AM


I saw this over lunch and it might of interest to posters
- I have. I'm not ashamed | Zoe Williams | The Guardian

  
rgb
Inactive Member


Message 51 of 403 (332112)
07-15-2006 11:59 PM
Reply to: Message 47 by RAZD
07-04-2006 8:47 PM


RAZD writes
quote:
To prevent death or sever injury to the mother.
If the fetus is already almost out of the mother (everything but the head), wouldn't it be at least a little possible to try to remove the rest of the fetus without directly killing it?
quote:
To end a pointless pregnancy - the fetus is so genetically damaged that it will not survive much longer on its own anyway.
Again, the question isn't about ending a pregnancy or not. We have already established (or at least I thought we have) that abortion only requires the removal of the parasite.
About the genetically damaged fetus, even in the Terry Schiavo (sp?) case, they didn't just stab her to death. They allowed her to die naturally.
quote:
To end a less than optimum pregnancy, where disabilities will affect the life of the parents as well as the child, so that the resources can be directed to having a healthy baby.
While I can see where you are coming from in this regard, the implication is somewhat disturbing (to me at least). We as a society have established that the survival of a deformed individual should not depend on the availability (or unavailability) of the resources.
quote:
To end a pregnancy where the life situation of the mother has changed and she will no longer be able to provide and support a child.
Again, the woman has every right to end the pregnancy whenever she wishes. The fetus is after all a parasitic guest whose safe occupation solely depends on the woman's grace. But the question isn't about simply ending the pregnancy. The question is about the necessity of inflicting a mortal wound on your house guest when all you have to do is have him evicted.
quote:
There are probably as many reasons as there are abortions - it is the right of the mother to decide in the end.
And I have never disputed her right to do so.
quote:
Why do so many pro-lifers have abortions?
Because they are hypocrits.
RAZD, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. I really do. It's just that you haven't taken the time to look at my posts carefully enough before you responded. What you have done is labeled me as the typical pro-lifer who has no regard for basic human rights. Despite the number of times I tried to explain my position, someone always shows up and assume that I want to deny people the right to allow others to use their organs. It's simply not fair, although you can argue that life isn't always fair
Edited by rgb, : To change some minor grammar error

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 52 of 403 (332187)
07-16-2006 11:31 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
06-29-2006 12:51 PM


sorry been out of town (still am, gave in).
Nearly lost Brennakimi as a freind in it (we made up later
i don't remember this at all.
1. Is Partial birth abortion murder? I am asking this because some say that a fetus isn't human until after it is born. If the fetus/baby is born halfway, is it human or not??
i first want to clear a few things up.
quote:
The procedure is usually performed during the fifth month of gestation or later. The woman's cervix is dilated, and the fetus is partially removed from the womb, feet first. The surgeon inserts a sharp object into the back of the fetus' head, removes it, and inserts a vacuum tube through which the brains are extracted. The head of the fetus contracts at this point and allows the fetus to be more easily removed from the womb.
ok. the procedure is called a dilation and extraction. they are very rare.
quote:
This is a topic that is rarely discussed during public debates:
bullet 1st Trimester: D&Xs are not performed during the first three months of pregnancy, because there are better ways to perform abortions. There is no need to follow a D&X procedure, because the fetus' head quite small at this stage of gestation and can be quite easily removed from the woman's uterus.
bullet 2nd Trimester: D&Xs are very rarely performed in the late second trimester at a time in the pregnancy before the fetus is viable. These, like most abortions, are performed for a variety of reasons, including:
bullet She is not ready to have a baby for whatever reason and has delayed her decision to have an abortion into the second trimester. As mentioned above, 90% of abortions are done in the first trimester.
bullet There are mental or physical health problems related to the pregnancy.
bullet The fetus has been found to be dead, badly malformed, or suffering from a very serious genetic defect. This is often only detectable late in the second trimester.
bullet 3rd Trimester: They are also very rarely performed in late pregnancy. The most common justifications at that time are:
bullet The fetus is dead.
bullet The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would place the woman's life in severe danger.
bullet The fetus is alive, but continued pregnancy would grievously damage the woman's health and/or disable her.
bullet The fetus is so malformed that it can never gain consciousness and will die shortly after birth. Many which fall into this category have developed a very severe form of hydrocephalus.
In addition, some physicians violate their state medical association's regulations and perform elective D&X procedures - primarily on women who are suicidally depressed.
There appears to be no reliable data available on how many D&X procedures are performed for each of the above reasons.
The physician is faced with two main alternatives at this late point in pregnancy:
bullet a hysterotomy, which is similar to a Cesarean section, or
bullet a D&X procedure
despite what you might think, most "partial birth" abortions are based on life and health reasons. let me tell you precisely how much i want to wait eight months through a pregnancy to have the precious joy of stabbing something in my body and sucking the life out of it like the pro-life camp would have you believe. these are rare and occur under serious circumstances. and they can be done long before the fetus is viable (can survive on its own).
most abortions take place within the first one or two months... generally as soon as a woman discovers she is pregnant which is usually the first missed period.
do i think it is murder? i don't know.
do i think hat a woman and her doctor should be permitted to decide that a 'baby' is not going to achieve consciousness or that the woman is litterally out of her mind over this pregnancy and will quite possibly kill herself and it should be ended?
a resounding YES.
the point of my opinion isn't really "is it wrong". the point of my opinion is that we have personalized healthcare in this nation. we also have laws protecting idividual rights. who am i to decide for every woman and every pregnancy what is and is not acceptable?
in my personal and biblical opinion, a fetus becomes a baby when it breathes on its own. generally, historically, the point was 'quickening' which is usually around five months i think. most elective abortions are done far before then.
2. If a baby is halfway born (partial birth), is it called a "fetaby" or a "betus"??
is a 4 month old fetus that is the size of an avocado a baby when it is removed from the body?
there is no magical point halfway through the birth canal at which one becomes a baby. that's ridiculous.
3. Hypothetically, if it is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt that a fetus, all the way to an embryo, is a human being, would you still support a woman's right to choose?
prior to fertilization, a poential fetus is human. after fertilization, a zygote is human. before the layers form, it is human. after the layers form, it is human. when it still has a tail, it is human, after the legs split, it is human. and so forth.
it has human dna, it is human. is it a baby? is it alive? is it a separate entity from it's mother?
if it were proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that is is a baby and it has feelings and hopes and fears and whatnot, yes, i would still support a woman's right to choose.
4.If your loveable dog is pregnant with puppies, but you dont want them and cant support them with your finances, would you abort the puppies, or give away or sell them to a family that has a desire for 'em?
if that someone else is willing to pay to take care of my dog if the pregnancy damages her health, sure. but i'm smart and i have had my dog fixed. however, if my dog is pregnant with something other than puppies, i want to wait and find out what they are.
5. If a Fetus is not human, would it be regarded as an animal, and if so, subject to animal rights?
it is human. it is not a human. it is an animal because all humans are animals. this is a silly question.
6. If a baby is a baby after it comes out of the womans birth canal, then if a guy is making love to a woman, would he be a little less than human?
men are generally a little less than human.
perhaps when a man is making love to a woman, he is actually fully human.
7. If it was made legal to end the life of a 1-10 year old kid if the parent/parents make that choice, would you be for or against it?
depends on the extenuating circumstances. will they be charged with neglect if they just leave the kid somewhere for someone else to care for (like an emergency room). what if the kid has developed an untreatable condition? what if the kid is incoridgably evil? what if it's the 666 kid?
the problem is the difference here between killing and abusing. if i can kill my 1-10 year old kid, why can't i beat it? i think it's too dangerous. and a 1-10 year old kid (sorry, 0-10) can breathe on its own and be fed by someone else. if someone wants to start investigating the potential for fetus transplants from someone who doesn't want it to someone who does and is willing to pay for the procedure, then fine.
also. the idea behind abortion isn't the right to kill someone. it's the right to not be pregnant. it's the right for a woman to have more say in her use as a reproductive vessel than her husband. you do understand that concept right? it's an extension of the idea that a woman is not the property of the men in her family to do with as they please. the point is, my husband can't just knock me up whenever he feels like it. i have absolute control over my own medical care INCLUDING my uterus.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by LudoRephaim, posted 06-29-2006 12:51 PM LudoRephaim has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by LudoRephaim, posted 07-22-2006 6:58 PM macaroniandcheese has replied
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 53 of 403 (332189)
07-16-2006 11:42 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by rgb
06-29-2006 3:11 PM


Re: good response
Have you seen god? If so, how extensive was your study if HIS anatomy?
does this mean it's okay to abort boys with pencil dick genes? because god clearly has a very large penis. and jesus was hung like this (hold arms out like cross).
sorry. couldn't help myself.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 54 of 403 (332190)
07-16-2006 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 19 by ringo
06-29-2006 3:23 PM


i eat meat, because i refuse to make a distinction between animals and plants. they are both alive and i have no choice but to eat both. besides. there are loads of carnivorous species and they don't seem to have any problems with this shit. particularly sharks and baby seals. i wanna eat me some baby seal. i wonder if it'll still feel cute in my tummy?

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 55 of 403 (332191)
07-16-2006 11:50 AM
Reply to: Message 33 by LudoRephaim
06-29-2006 7:16 PM


Re: Vanillia Ice Cream
bluebell ice cream and my cousin. the only good things to come out of texas.

This message is a reply to:
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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 56 of 403 (332192)
07-16-2006 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 39 by bob_gray
06-29-2006 9:21 PM


Re: Necessity of partial birth abortions
i found those statistics as well and and quite aware of the problem. i have a friend with it, but i think she developed it after she was born. ask arach. he knows her better than i.

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ramoss
Member (Idle past 612 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 57 of 403 (332233)
07-16-2006 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 54 by macaroniandcheese
07-16-2006 11:44 AM


Only if it pops out like the Alien in that horror movie.

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 58 of 403 (332387)
07-16-2006 10:31 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by rgb
07-15-2006 11:59 PM


If the fetus is already almost out of the mother (everything but the head), wouldn't it be at least a little possible to try to remove the rest of the fetus without directly killing it?
I would think if there was any hope of saving the fetus and that such was desired, that a permature C-section would be tried.
If that was not an option on the table, then there is no difference to the fetus or the end result, whether it is delivered by C-section and allowed to die or terminated by the procedure described -- but there is a very significant difference to the mother, particularly if complications involving the mother's health have already set in that make an operation questionable.
It is not the place of people not in the immediate family to presume to make such decisions both in advance and in absentia.
About the genetically damaged fetus, even in the Terry Schiavo (sp?) case, they didn't just stab her to death. They allowed her to die naturally.
(1) she wasn't genetically damaged, she was brain dead.
(2) they allowed the flesh to die, the "person" had already died years before.
In cases like this, the family has the right to make such decisions in just the same way as they have the right to make decisions about abortions -- it's about termination of life support and the definition of human life eh?
For more on my opinion see
{Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion}
http://EvC Forum: Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion -->EvC Forum: Legal Death, Legal Life, Personhood and Abortion
Enjoy.
{abe}
RAZD, I really appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. I really do. It's just that you haven't taken the time to look at my posts carefully enough before you responded. What you have done is labeled me as the typical pro-lifer who has no regard for basic human rights.
Sorry if it comes across that way. I just feel it is necessary to re-iterate the legal position, and mine, about who gets to decide.
I understand that there are many nuanced positions on this debate, and one of the reasons I put together the essay I referenced above with the hope of adding some reason to the different positions.
In it I discuss the concept of a premature C-section as a viable alternative to late term abortion.
{/abe}
Edited by RAZD, : added ending
Edited by RAZD, : No reason given.

Join the effort to unravel {AIDSHIV} with Team EvC! (click)

we are limited in our ability to understand
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RebelAAmericanOZen[Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 59 of 403 (333867)
07-20-2006 11:01 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by LudoRephaim
06-29-2006 12:51 PM


bump for ludo
just in case you didn't notice my reply.
and i still have no idea what you were talking about.
my apologies to everyone else.
Edited by brennakimi, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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LudoRephaim
Member (Idle past 5084 days)
Posts: 651
From: Jareth's labyrinth
Joined: 03-12-2006


Message 60 of 403 (334370)
07-22-2006 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 52 by macaroniandcheese
07-16-2006 11:31 AM


Hey Brennakimi
Sorry for the late reply: Had a bad storm and a bad debate a while back.
brennakimi writes:
I dont remember this at all.
Dont you remember the Midol remark?
Cant debate much. See you later.

"The Nephilim where in the Earth in those days..." Genesis 6:4

This message is a reply to:
 Message 52 by macaroniandcheese, posted 07-16-2006 11:31 AM macaroniandcheese has replied

Replies to this message:
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