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Author Topic:   Why did the Christian messiah fail to fulfill the messianic prophecies?
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 316 of 716 (789498)
08-15-2016 5:59 PM
Reply to: Message 302 by GDR
08-04-2016 6:21 PM


Re: Temple
It was a case of redefining the prophesies but simply announcing one cohesive understanding of them.
I could do that, too, and have myself as the fulfillment of that new cohesive understanding. Anyone could do it.
As soon as the prophecies can say whatever you want them to say, then they really aren't prophecies anymore.
The prophesies weren't dictated word for word by God but had come through centuries of prophets and others trying to determine the nature of there one true God and how they were to respond. Some got it more right than others. Jesus was the fulfillment of the scriptures but not in the way that many had hoped.
How do you determine objectively who got the interpretation right?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 302 by GDR, posted 08-04-2016 6:21 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 317 of 716 (789506)
08-15-2016 10:12 PM
Reply to: Message 316 by Taq
08-15-2016 5:59 PM


Re: Temple
Taq writes:
I could do that, too, and have myself as the fulfillment of that new cohesive understanding. Anyone could do it.
As soon as the prophecies can say whatever you want them to say, then they really aren't prophecies anymore
How do you determine objectively who got the interpretation right?
You really can only tell after the fact. God resurrected Jesus confirming that Jesus' understanding was the correct one. If one doesn't accept that the resurrection of Jesus was an historical event then there is no reason to believe that Jesus got it right.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 316 by Taq, posted 08-15-2016 5:59 PM Taq has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 322 by Pressie, posted 10-17-2016 6:33 AM GDR has replied

  
Hawkins
Member (Idle past 1374 days)
Posts: 150
From: Hong Kong
Joined: 08-25-2005


Message 318 of 716 (791335)
09-14-2016 2:35 PM


Oh, a question of 2013. Why there are so many revived threads around in EvC.
The problem is that we don't know what is the Messianic prophecies in the minds of Jews back in Jesus' time.
Today Messianic prophecies is from today's Judaism, but not the Jewish concepts back in Jesus time. Today's Judaism was built after AD 200.

Replies to this message:
 Message 319 by ringo, posted 09-14-2016 3:24 PM Hawkins has not replied
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 Message 344 by LamarkNewAge, posted 01-27-2017 12:05 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 319 of 716 (791354)
09-14-2016 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 318 by Hawkins
09-14-2016 2:35 PM


Hawkins writes:
Why there are so many revived threads around in EvC.
It's a miracle!

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 Message 318 by Hawkins, posted 09-14-2016 2:35 PM Hawkins has not replied

  
jaywill
Member (Idle past 1941 days)
Posts: 4519
From: VA USA
Joined: 12-05-2005


(1)
Message 320 of 716 (792864)
10-14-2016 4:24 PM
Reply to: Message 305 by ringo
08-05-2016 11:48 AM


Re: Temple
quote:
Jesus said that renewal of this world is our responsibility.
Where ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 305 by ringo, posted 08-05-2016 11:48 AM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 321 by ringo, posted 10-15-2016 12:02 PM jaywill has not replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 321 of 716 (792927)
10-15-2016 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by jaywill
10-14-2016 4:24 PM


Re: Temple
jaywill writes:
ringo writes:
Jesus said that renewal of this world is our responsibility.
Where ?
Matthew 25, for a start. He told us to feed the hungry, etc. That's about this world, isn't it?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 320 by jaywill, posted 10-14-2016 4:24 PM jaywill has not replied

  
Pressie
Member
Posts: 2103
From: Pretoria, SA
Joined: 06-18-2010


Message 322 of 716 (792954)
10-17-2016 6:33 AM
Reply to: Message 317 by GDR
08-15-2016 10:12 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
God resurrected Jesus confirming that Jesus' understanding was the correct one.
It seems like Jesus disagreed.
Mark 13:32. But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
So, Jesus wasn't God. Maybe Jesus was a schitzo?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 317 by GDR, posted 08-15-2016 10:12 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 323 by GDR, posted 10-18-2016 9:21 AM Pressie has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 323 of 716 (792984)
10-18-2016 9:21 AM
Reply to: Message 322 by Pressie
10-17-2016 6:33 AM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
God resurrected Jesus confirming that Jesus' understanding was the correct one.
Pressie writes:
It seems like Jesus disagreed.
Mark 13:32. But about that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.
So, Jesus wasn't God. Maybe Jesus was a schitzo?
I don't see Jesus as being God as in having supernatural knowledge. I believe that He went into Jerusalem knowing what those in power do to people who did what He was about to do. He went into Jerusalem fully expecting to be crucified but through His understanding of the Jewish Scriptures and prayer He believed that somehow God the Father, even though He was suffering a humiliating criminal's death, would see Him through it. God did that by resurrecting Him.
Jesus often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one like a "Son of Man' is enthroned and given dominion over the nations by the "Ancient of Days". It is after the resurrection that Jesus' followers saw Jesus as part of the Trinity through that same understanding.
Also of course in understanding Jesus' divinity we can go to the 1st chapter of the Gospel of John where John talks about the "Word" that had existed since before time became flesh. Jesus perfectly embodied the wisdom and nature of God.
The resurrection vindicates and affirms the message and life of Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 322 by Pressie, posted 10-17-2016 6:33 AM Pressie has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 324 by Taq, posted 10-18-2016 4:49 PM GDR has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 324 of 716 (793023)
10-18-2016 4:49 PM
Reply to: Message 323 by GDR
10-18-2016 9:21 AM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
Jesus often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one like a "Son of Man' is enthroned and given dominion over the nations by the "Ancient of Days".
Except Jesus wasn't enthroned and had dominion over no lands. In fact, the Jews were conquered by the Romans soon after the claimed resurrection. So much for prophesy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 323 by GDR, posted 10-18-2016 9:21 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 326 by GDR, posted 10-20-2016 6:42 PM Taq has replied

  
LamarkNewAge
Member (Idle past 738 days)
Posts: 2236
Joined: 12-22-2015


Message 325 of 716 (793062)
10-19-2016 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 320 by jaywill
10-14-2016 4:24 PM


On Jesus and the making of the world.
Jaywill asked "Where [is the renewal of this world is our responsibility according to Jesus]?
Luke 17:20-21 is highly relevant.
quote:
20 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, The kingdom of God does not come with observation; 21 nor will they say, ‘See here!’ or ‘See there!’ For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you.
NRSV
Steve Mason in his Early Christian Reader had these annotations (actually far more, but here are the most relevant).
quote:
Steve Mason
p.449
....
Luke 17:20-21 See Gospel of Thomas 3, 113
Then a note for "among you" in verse 21 of chapter 17 in Luke.
quote:
17:21 .... The preposition translated among here normally means "inside" or "within" a particular space or time :the potential for the kingdom lies within the Pharisees. This is a critical passage for the argument that the historical Jesus announced the present realization of the kingdom (as distinct from an exclusively or largely future kingdom). It is also a remarkable statement about Luke's Pharisees. They could have brought forth the kingdom in some way (but they did not).
Jesus told his apostles (just before the transfiguration or metamorphosis) that they would see the kingdom come with power in their lives around Mark 9:1 (or the last verse in chapter 8) as well as in Luke and Matthew. Matthew 24 and Mark 13 and Luke 21 seemed to put that at the destruction of the Temple.
This synoptic material was also contained in the (extremely important)Gospel of Thomas (but different in part). About half of the 114 sayings (logoi) in Thomas are also in the Synoptic Gospels, and (nearly all)scholars now say that Thomas has the earlier form of the sayings (textual experts say it is very much the case). Scholars hypothesized that there was a Q document containing just "sayings" (logoi) of Jesus (of a certain type), and then the discovery of the Gospel of Thomas backed that theory up. Saying 12 of Thomas showed scholars that Jesus appointed James as the leader of the Apostles (the fact of his leadership was always clear because of Acts chapters 12, 15, 21), which was not covered in the Bible we have today. Thomas does seem to contain material from an earlier version of Q than the one Matthew and Luke used. Thomas doesn't seem to have Q material that could post-date the Temple destruction.
Thomas clearly has "logoi" material that is earlier than the material that Luke and Matthew used, so it is important.
Here is saying 113 of Thomas (and it is part of the post 50 AD branches of a conversation that Jesus could very well have had) in 3 different translations
quote:
BLATZ translation
His disciples said to him: On what day will the kingdom come? It will not come while people watch for it; they will not say: Look, here it is, or: Look, there it is; but the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and men do not see it.
LAYTON translation
His disciples said to him, "When is the kingdom going to come?" , "It is not by being waited for that it is going to come. They are not going to say, 'Here it is' or 'There it is.' Rather, the kingdom of the father is spread out over the earth, and people do not see it."
DORESSE TRANSLATION
His disciples said to him: "On what day will the kingdom come?" "It will not come when it is expected. No one will say: 'See, it is here!' or: 'Look, it is there!' but the Kingdom of the Father is spread over the earth and men do not see it."
Gospel of Thomas Saying 113 - GospelThomas.com
Mason also refers us to saying 3.
Here is the Layton translation of a Greek text found in Egypt.
quote:
Jesus said, "If those who lead you (plur.) say to you, 'See, the kingdom is in heaven,' then the birds of heaven will precede you. If they say to you, 'It is in the sea,' then the fish will precede you. But the kingdom is inside of you. And it is outside of you. "When you become acquainted with yourselves, then you will be recognized. And you will understand that it is you who are children of the living father. But if you do not become acquainted with yourselves, then you are in poverty, and it is you who are the poverty."
Gospel of Thomas Saying 3 - GospelThomas.com
Mason offered these relevant references when he was at chapter 3, but the chapter 3 itself isn't nearly as important as the text insaying/chapter 113.
quote:
Steve Mason
p.519
3:1-3 Mark 13:21-23 :Matt 24:23-28; Luke 17:20-25; for insight in the farthest reaches of the cosmos derives from Jewish wisdom tradition. (LXX Job 28:12-14, 20-22 ; Bar 3:29-32, 35-37, LXX Deut. 30:11-14; and Sir. 1:1-3). Here it is probably intended as a mild parody of this tradition. 3:3 Luke 17:21
(LXX is the Septuagint text, but that isn't so important as to our topic)
What is important is that this Gospel, which uses earlier sources than Matthew and Luke (and mark and John too but they don't have Q material), seems to see the kingdom as something that can happen presently. Those who followed James did see the Temple destruction as something of a new age. They didn't see some mythical "church age" inserted between the time of Jesus and John the Baptist and some future "Kingdom of God" (1988 AD? 2000 AD? 2007 AD? ) as the actual beginning. Not that they didn't see a large scale metamorphosis happening suddenly at some point. The metanoia (sp?) or "change of mind" was called for by John the Baptist according to the Gospels. It was translated as "repentance". The dead John the Baptist witnessed the change of body (according to Jesus) for Jesus which was metamorphosis (translated "transfiguration"). But the early sources seem to attest to a present realization of the Kingdom, and the Gospels in the Bible we have today don't contradict the earlier sources (I don't think).
It seems that the death of Jesus around 30 A.D. and then the Temple destruction were supposed to be major turning points. The metamorphosis and resurrection were happening for all (albeit slowly as it turned out). That was the view of the followers of James the Just anyway. I'm not so sure that Paul had a much different view.
Modern day fundamentalists seem to have issues with the view of the early Jewish Christians though. Perhaps it is because the Roman Empire slaughtered people like crazy after 380 A.D. , and Jewish Christians (who followed James ) were prime targets. Many local church councils targets their worship/lifestyle practices. The Jewish Christians, stood in a line (tradition) that wasn't highly esteemed then and, as a result, isn't now.
The Gospel of Thomas (which has many variants and the most complete one might not be standard, but it could be unique in many parts so it is a little risky to assume we have the actual "original" one - and it was based on various sources, early and late) gives us a window into the verses that one Jewish-Christian tradition saw as important.
And it (saying 113 of Thomas) doesn't contradict Luke (chapter 17 and then the entire gospel itself), does it?
They are saying the same thing, right?
(NOTE Please ignore the veritable ignoramus choir (of 4-6 posters) that will rear its head and disrupt by calling my posts "off-topic")

This message is a reply to:
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GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 326 of 716 (793097)
10-20-2016 6:42 PM
Reply to: Message 324 by Taq
10-18-2016 4:49 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
Jesus often referred to Himself as the "Son of Man" obviously referring to Daniel 7 where one like a "Son of Man' is enthroned and given dominion over the nations by the "Ancient of Days".
Taq writes:
Except Jesus wasn't enthroned and had dominion over no lands. In fact, the Jews were conquered by the Romans soon after the claimed resurrection. So much for prophesy.
But that misses the point entirely. His whole message was that the Romans weren't the real enemy. It was evil itself that was the enemy, and evil isn't defeated militarily but with sacrificial love.
In Daniel 7 He is enthroned and given dominion over the Kingdom of those who embody His Spirit of sacrificial love in all of the world.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 324 by Taq, posted 10-18-2016 4:49 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 327 by Taq, posted 10-24-2016 3:21 PM GDR has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 327 of 716 (793250)
10-24-2016 3:21 PM
Reply to: Message 326 by GDR
10-20-2016 6:42 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
But that misses the point entirely. His whole message was that the Romans weren't the real enemy. It was evil itself that was the enemy, and evil isn't defeated militarily but with sacrificial love.
Nowhere does it say that in the Old Testament prophecies. In all of the prophecies it talks about physically conquering the enemies of Israel.
What you have in the NT is a perversion of the prophecies so that anyone can fulfill them. I could fulfill them. All I need to do is pronounce that I have defeated some invisible evil in some invisible way, and POOOF!!!, I'm the Messiah.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 326 by GDR, posted 10-20-2016 6:42 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 328 by GDR, posted 10-24-2016 7:46 PM Taq has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 328 of 716 (793272)
10-24-2016 7:46 PM
Reply to: Message 327 by Taq
10-24-2016 3:21 PM


Re: Temple
Taq writes:
Nowhere does it say that in the Old Testament prophecies. In all of the prophecies it talks about physically conquering the enemies of Israel.
So what. That is my point. Jesus essentially said that they had misinterpreted the prophesies.
Taq writes:
What you have in the NT is a perversion of the prophecies so that anyone can fulfill them. I could fulfill them. All I need to do is pronounce that I have defeated some invisible evil in some invisible way, and POOOF!!!, I'm the Messiah.
Ok, but the credibility of what Jesus said and did is in the resurrection. I have said numerous times that I am a Christian as I believe that God resurrected Jesus. The whole NT is written by guys trying to get their head around that fact, and then figure from their scriptures, and from what Jesus said and did how that does, and how it should, and how it should affect out lives
Even His followers didn't get it until after the resurrection. In all likelihood Judas thought that Jesus, with His love your enemy approach, was a traitor to the cause.
After the crucifixion his followers just saw Jesus as another failed messiah, that is until the Resurrection. There is no reason whatsoever to think that the movement would have continued if God hadn't resurrected Jesus.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 327 by Taq, posted 10-24-2016 3:21 PM Taq has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 329 by Tangle, posted 10-25-2016 2:33 AM GDR has replied
 Message 330 by Taq, posted 10-25-2016 10:51 AM GDR has replied
 Message 331 by ringo, posted 10-25-2016 11:58 AM GDR has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


Message 329 of 716 (793283)
10-25-2016 2:33 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by GDR
10-24-2016 7:46 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
After the crucifixion his followers just saw Jesus as another failed messiah, that is until the Resurrection.
Yes, not only because he was killed, just like any other bloke, but also because he failed to return as he promised he would. Thereby failing his own prophecy.
There is no reason whatsoever to think that the movement would have continued if God hadn't resurrected Jesus.
Which is exactly why the myth of the resurrection had to be created. Note that it's easy to create the myth of a resurrection and susequent permanent disappearance, but impossible to create the reality of a real return - the 'second coming'. Just like fake healers can 'heal' those with invisible ailments but not those requiring new limbs.

Je suis Charlie. Je suis Ahmed. Je suis Juif. Je suis Parisien.
Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android
"Science adjusts it's views based on what's observed.
Faith is the denial of observation so that Belief can be preserved."
- Tim Minchin, in his beat poem, Storm.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by GDR, posted 10-24-2016 7:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 332 by GDR, posted 10-25-2016 7:26 PM Tangle has replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 330 of 716 (793303)
10-25-2016 10:51 AM
Reply to: Message 328 by GDR
10-24-2016 7:46 PM


Re: Temple
GDR writes:
So what. That is my point. Jesus essentially said that they had misinterpreted the prophesies.
That's what a false Messiah would say when he failed to fulfill the prophecies.
Ok, but the credibility of what Jesus said and did is in the resurrection.
I also resurrected:
Taq 1:1 On the third day, Taq arose from the dead.
I am now as much a Messiah as Jesus.
Edited by Taq, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 328 by GDR, posted 10-24-2016 7:46 PM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 333 by GDR, posted 10-25-2016 7:36 PM Taq has replied
 Message 337 by LamarkNewAge, posted 10-26-2016 4:30 PM Taq has not replied

  
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