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Author Topic:   Abortion questions...?
Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 121 of 403 (601894)
01-24-2011 9:17 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by jar
01-24-2011 9:06 PM


Re: God commanded a very very very late term abortion did he not?
Na, I'm aware of the context. I've known 137 by heart since I was but little. While it rejoiceth in thoughts of future vengeance, it is indeed a prayer rather than a commandment.
Hosea is rather explicit though: "for she hath rebelled against her God".
My point is that these rock and sword "abortions" are things the Allmighty reserves to himself to bring upon people. Can't have us "playing God", yeah?
BTW, why are you fucking with my little bit of context skew when you have people comparing the Akedat to advanced contraception?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by jar, posted 01-24-2011 9:06 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 122 of 403 (601897)
01-24-2011 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Iblis
01-24-2011 9:17 PM


Re: God commanded a very very very late term abortion did he not?
Because it is context skew, quote mining, and I jump on the other Christians when they do that as well.
They too are wrong comparing the Akedah to advanced contraception, but it is a funny image.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 123 of 403 (601898)
01-24-2011 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 97 by subbie
01-23-2011 5:10 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
subbie writes:
I cannot understand anyone who thinks it's homicide, but believes it should not be outlawed.
there are legal homicides, this is one of them.
I prefer not to hide behind the veil of denial, as we split hairs on "what is life?" or "what is a person?". I know some here are fond of that underhanded tactic, but I prefer to shoot from the hip. For me life begins at conception, and abortion is homicide, but so is capitol punishment, self-defense, war, etc.
I choose free-choice in this one.
buzsaw writes:
The problem I have with that is that it's not her body that's in question. It's that other person's body which she and it's father caused to become a live human being and perhaps a living soul as some of us agree is the case. According to Luke 1, John the Baptist was filled with the Holy Spirit from the womb and leaped in the womb of Elizabeth when Mary greeted her.
unless you can remove the foetus, and raise it in a device of some sort, then the womans body is very much in question. she wants it out of her, she may not want it dead but she want no part of it. I do not see why some feel it is fine to force women to be pregnant.
buzsaw writes:
It's about killing a person more than what's moral. Should the babe be less safe in the womb than one minute out of the womb?
i do not think that it is.
buzsaw writes:
There was a time when our nation did legislate it as unlawfully killing that other person unable to speak for and defend itself against pain and death.
when, and where?
I think this was and still should be a state's rights issue, the Federal government has no real business in this one.
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : I'll reply to Buzsaw and Subbie in the same one i guess
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : i cant spel, or prevew
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : ugh

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 124 of 403 (601900)
01-24-2011 10:13 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by subbie
01-24-2011 8:31 PM


Re: First: What is a person?
raised by a series of abusive foster parents.
I just want to point out that the majority of foster parents are not abusive. As a foster parent I do take offense at stereotypes that paint foster parents as abusive.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts

This message is a reply to:
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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 125 of 403 (601901)
01-24-2011 10:19 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by Artemis Entreri
01-24-2011 9:31 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
Aw geez, and you were doing so nice there for a while.
I prefer not to hide behind the veil of denial, as we split hairs on "what is life?" or "what is a person?". I know some here are fond of that underhanded tactic, but I prefer to shoot from the hip.
There's nothing underhanded about understanding that this:
is not a human being. The argument that it's a human being at birth and there's no clear point of demarcation anywhere along the line of development so it must be a human being at conception is called a slippery slope argument. Is an egg a chicken? Is an apple seed an apple tree? Of course not. A blastocyst is not a human being.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 126 of 403 (601903)
01-24-2011 10:24 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by Theodoric
01-24-2011 10:13 PM


Re: First: What is a person?
Theodoric writes:
raised by a series of abusive foster parents.
I just want to point out that the majority of foster parents are not abusive. As a foster parent I do take offense at stereotypes that paint foster parents as abusive.
First let me humbly apologize. I fully understand that the vast majority of foster parents are self-sacrificing, loving people who do a great service to the children they raise and to society. I didn't mean to suggest otherwise and regret it if what I said gave that impression.
By the same token, I also didn't mean to imply that all non-white children placed for adoption are diseased crack babies. My point was simply that the naive assumption that all unwanted pregnancies can be solved by putting the children up for adoption ignores harsh realities that many pregnant women face every day.
Oh, and you have no idea how much it pains me to say this, but good luck to the Pack in the Superbowl.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
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Buzsaw
Inactive Member


(1)
Message 127 of 403 (601920)
01-25-2011 12:27 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by RAZD
01-24-2011 7:44 PM


Re: Briterican's Strawman Points
RAZD writes:
Good point. We also have the case for abandoning babies, as the mother of Moses did, so that she did not have to deal with the consequences of her behavior.
It's a strawman point. This thread is not about abandonment (which was not the intent of the mother who counted on the bathing princess's compassion) or killing a teenager (Abraham knowing the prophecy of Jehovah concerning Isaac's preservation), the two strawmen Briterican cited. It's about the legality of pre-birth abortion.

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW.
The Immeasurable Present Eternally Extends the Infinite Past And Infinitely Consumes The Eternal Future.

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 128 of 403 (601954)
01-25-2011 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by Buzsaw
01-25-2011 12:27 AM


Re: Briterican's Strawman Points
yep, underhanded tactics, of talking about something else other than the original thought, it all this site is good for.
EvC should be called "beating around the bush".
Edited by Artemis Entreri, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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onifre
Member (Idle past 2951 days)
Posts: 4854
From: Dark Side of the Moon
Joined: 02-20-2008


Message 129 of 403 (601974)
01-25-2011 11:51 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by Artemis Entreri
01-24-2011 9:31 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
there are legal homicides, this is one of them.
True. But if you equate abortion with homicide, then you'll also have to include birth control methods as homicidal methods, to stay consistent. It's all working at the cellular level.
I do not see why some feel it is fine to force women to be pregnant.
And only within the US borders. They want laws set up to only control the choices of Americans. If you're from another country, no one cares what happens to your kid, fetus, or sperm cells. Esp. if you're skin is dark.
The world hunger problem: Facts, figures and statistics
quote:
In the Asian, African and Latin American countries, well over 500 million people are living in what the World Bank has called "absolute poverty"
Every year 15 million children die of hunger
For the price of one missile, a school full of hungry children could eat lunch every day for 5 years
Throughout the 1990's more than 100 million children will die from illness and starvation. Those 100 million deaths could be prevented for the price of ten Stealth bombers, or what the world spends on its military in two days!
The World Health Organization estimates that one-third of the world is well-fed, one-third is under-fed one-third is starving- Since you've entered this site at least 200 people have died of starvation. Over 4 million will die this year.
One in twelve people worldwide is malnourished, including 160 million children under the age of 5. United Nations Food and Agriculture
The Indian subcontinent has nearly half the world's hungry people. Africa and the rest of Asia together have approximately 40%, and the remaining hungry people are found in Latin America and other parts of the world. Hunger in Global Economy
Nearly one in four people, 1.3 billion - a majority of humanity - live on less than $1 per day, while the world's 358 billionaires have assets exceeding the combined annual incomes of countries with 45 percent of the world's people. UNICEF
3 billion people in the world today struggle to survive on US$2/day.
In 1994 the Urban Institute in Washington DC estimated that one out of 6 elderly people in the U.S. has an inadequate diet.
In the U.S. hunger and race are related. In 1991 46% of African-American children were chronically hungry, and 40% of Latino children were chronically hungry compared to 16% of white children.
The infant mortality rate is closely linked to inadequate nutrition among pregnant women. The U.S. ranks 23rd among industrial nations in infant mortality. African-American infants die at nearly twice the rate of white infants.
One out of every eight children under the age of twelve in the U.S. goes to bed hungry every night.
Half of all children under five years of age in South Asia and one third of those in sub-Saharan Africa are malnourished.
In 1997 alone, the lives of at least 300,000 young children were saved by vitamin A supplementation programmes in developing countries.
Malnutrition is implicated in more than half of all child deaths worldwide - a proportion unmatched by any infectious disease since the Black Death
About 183 million children weigh less than they should for their age
To satisfy the world's sanitation and food requirements would cost only US$13 billion- what the people of the United States and the European Union spend on perfume each year.
The assets of the world's three richest men are more than the combined GNP of all the least developed countries on the planet.
Every 3.6 seconds someone dies of hunger
It is estimated that some 800 million people in the world suffer from hunger and malnutrition, about 100 times as many as those who actually die from it each year.
Looking at these global numbers really trumps the 900,000 legally administered abortions that occur per year. These are living human beings that can barely survive, why continue to flood the earth with more unwanted humans under these conditions?
- Oni
Edited by onifre, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
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hooah212002
Member (Idle past 802 days)
Posts: 3193
Joined: 08-12-2009


Message 130 of 403 (601978)
01-25-2011 12:06 PM


If a pregnant woman is in a car accident and the fetus is killed (but not the mother), should the person at fault get charged with murder?
If a pregnant woman falls down the stairs and the fetus in killed, should SHE be charged with murder?
If a pregnant woman does not comply with doctors orders for a healthy pregnancy, should she be charged with neglect the same as a parent would if they neglected an actual child?

"What can be asserted without proof, can be dismissed without proof."-Hitch.

Replies to this message:
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bluescat48
Member (Idle past 4190 days)
Posts: 2347
From: United States
Joined: 10-06-2007


Message 131 of 403 (602002)
01-25-2011 2:14 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by hooah212002
01-25-2011 12:06 PM


The answer to all three questions is no.

There is no better love between 2 people than mutual respect for each other WT Young, 2002
Who gave anyone the authority to call me an authority on anything. WT Young, 1969
Since Evolution is only ~90% correct it should be thrown out and replaced by Creation which has even a lower % of correctness. W T Young, 2008

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subbie
Member (Idle past 1255 days)
Posts: 3509
Joined: 02-26-2006


Message 132 of 403 (602006)
01-25-2011 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by hooah212002
01-25-2011 12:06 PM


I agree with bluescat, the answer to all three questions is no. But in the first hypothetical it frequently is, and should be, a crime of some sort to kill a fetus without consent of the woman.

Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. -- Thomas Jefferson
We see monsters where science shows us windmills. -- Phat
It has always struck me as odd that fundies devote so much time and effort into trying to find a naturalistic explanation for their mythical flood, while looking for magical explanations for things that actually happened. -- Dr. Adequate
...creationists have a great way to detect fraud and it doesn't take 8 or 40 years or even a scientific degree to spot the fraud--'if it disagrees with the bible then it is wrong'.... -- archaeologist

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by hooah212002, posted 01-25-2011 12:06 PM hooah212002 has seen this message but not replied

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Iblis
Member (Idle past 3896 days)
Posts: 663
Joined: 11-17-2005


Message 133 of 403 (602008)
01-25-2011 2:59 PM
Reply to: Message 132 by subbie
01-25-2011 2:39 PM


The third one is a legal issue already in many cases, as well. Most commonly it's seen in charges against crack mamas, but I believe there are some laws on the books about alcohol poisoning too.
But none of those 3 is "murder" by any conception, there's no intent to kill even if the fetus were a person. Alcohol-related vehicular homicide sometimes gets treated like murder, but this is bad law. Attempts to criminalize the incidental termination of a pregnancy in the course of an assault on the mother as "murder" would also be bad law, and are specifically being pursued as a "wedge".
Good law respects the traditional definition of murder as intentional homicide of a living breathing person and does not try to fudge this concept in the course of criminalizing other acts.
And that woman who falls down the stairs, wtf? Is that just there for contrast?

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Artemis Entreri 
Suspended Member (Idle past 4229 days)
Posts: 1194
From: Northern Virginia
Joined: 07-08-2008


Message 134 of 403 (602017)
01-25-2011 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 129 by onifre
01-25-2011 11:51 AM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
Onifre writes:
True. But if you equate abortion with homicide, then you'll also have to include birth control methods as homicidal methods, to stay consistent. It's all working at the cellular level.
I am not sure. preventing life from occuring (conception), is not consistent with destroying a life that already exists. Maybe I misread you, but I do not see the corelation.

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New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 135 of 403 (602022)
01-25-2011 4:14 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Artemis Entreri
01-25-2011 3:51 PM


Re: Bump For Abortion Issues
I am not sure. preventing life from occuring (conception), is not consistent with destroying a life that already exists. Maybe I misread you, but I do not see the corelation.
Some birth control prevents implantation, which would take place after conception.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Artemis Entreri, posted 01-25-2011 3:51 PM Artemis Entreri has replied

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