Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,806 Year: 3,063/9,624 Month: 908/1,588 Week: 91/223 Day: 2/17 Hour: 0/0


EvC Forum Side Orders Coffee House The Trump Presidency

Summations Only

Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   The Trump Presidency
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1561 of 4573 (825516)
12-15-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1560 by Percy
12-15-2017 1:54 PM


Re: The Biggest Pinocchios of 2017
nally mentioning this just so you know, some issue with your pointing device causes you to very frequently miss the first character of a quote.
It's not the pointer. It's strictly my use of the pointer. Is the error of some import?
There's no actual connection in the tax bill between college related tax benefits and taxes on private jets.
Even if there were, the amount of money involved is so tiny as to affect only a single student at a premier university.
In short, calling the original statement a lie is pretty much indefensible. There is no reason for taking the benefit away other than to try to lessen the impact of the entire tax bill on the deficit.
I suspect that someone is trying to make the list l appear a bit less partisan by making sure there are a number of "lefty" lies on the list. I am not impressed.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1560 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 1:54 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1562 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 3:31 PM NoNukes has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1562 of 4573 (825521)
12-15-2017 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 1561 by NoNukes
12-15-2017 2:36 PM


Re: The Biggest Pinocchios of 2017
NoNukes writes:
nally mentioning this just so you know, some issue with your pointing device causes you to very frequently miss the first character of a quote.
It's not the pointer. It's strictly my use of the pointer. Is the error of some import?
o, not at all.
ou just seem like a precise kind of guy, so I thought the fact that it kept happening meant it might be something you weren't aware of - after all, who proofreads the paste of a cut-n-paste, so I figured it must have escaped your notice.
orget I said anything.
In short, calling the original statement a lie is pretty much indefensible. There is no reason for taking the benefit away other than to try to lessen the impact of the entire tax bill on the deficit.
I agree with that last sentence, but about the first, there was no connection in the Senate tax bill version between college related tax benefits and taxes on jet planes, but DNC chairman Tom Perez said there was. They didn't call it a lie, they called it a Pinocchio. See About The Fact Checker at the Washington Post for the details of their Pinocchio rating system. I assume that to make the list a statement had to achieve a rating of 4 Pinocchios, which they define simply as "Whoppers." More generally they seem to define a Pinocchio as a false or misleading comment.
I suspect that someone is trying to make the list l appear a bit less partisan by making sure there are a number of "lefty" lies on the list. I am not impressed.
I agree that the Perez comment shouldn't have made the list of top Pinocchios, but I do find the efforts of the media to track lies commendable and laudable.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1561 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2017 2:36 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1563 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2017 6:39 PM Percy has replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 1563 of 4573 (825542)
12-15-2017 6:39 PM
Reply to: Message 1562 by Percy
12-15-2017 3:31 PM


Re: The Biggest Pinocchios of 2017
I agree with that last sentence, but about the first, there was no connection in the Senate tax bill version between college related tax benefits and taxes on jet planes, but DNC chairman Tom Perez said there was.
No, that's not what he said. His statement was not intended to be taken to imply a direct one to one correspondence. His statement would apply to any tax break or to any class of rich folks who are getting tax breaks.
Not a lie at all.
ABE:
The provision for taxing grad students did not make it into the reconciled legislation according to what I read minutes ago on CNN. The provision was not in the Senate bill and apparently did not make it into the bill that will be voted on to go to the president's desk.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1562 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 3:31 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1567 by Percy, posted 12-16-2017 11:36 AM NoNukes has replied

  
Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


(4)
Message 1564 of 4573 (825556)
12-16-2017 1:27 AM
Reply to: Message 1558 by Percy
12-15-2017 9:37 AM


Re: The Biggest Pinocchios of 2017
I generally like the WaPo, but they do have some issues.
They give the following justification for Sanders' quote:
Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) conjured up this striking statistic by accepting a high estimate for the number of people who would lose insurance if Republicans killed the Affordable Care Act without any replacement. (That never happened.) Then he used mortality figures for what happened when people gained insurance in Massachusetts, not if they lost insurance nationwide. The result was the kind of scare statistic that lacks credibility and gives politics a bad name.
But the thing is, we already had this calculation back when the ACA was being debated.
Harvard Medical School produced a study in 2009 that indicated that 45,000 deaths each year due to lack of insurance. If we were to repeal the ACA and not replace it, we would go back to that situation we had before and there's no reason that people without health insurance would suddenly not die.
Regarding Harris' comments, the Post again seems to be confusing speculation with lying. If the ACA is repealed and insurance companies can start denying coverage based on pre-existing conditions, then there's no reason to think that they wouldn't start doing so. Especially since the Republican plans for healthcare is to allow insurance companies to do so (they were already engaging in recission to try and kick people off insurance once they got sick and tried to make a claim), there's no reason to think they wouldn't.

Rrhain

Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

Minds are like parachutes. Just because you've lost yours doesn't mean you can use mine.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1558 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 9:37 AM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1568 by Percy, posted 12-16-2017 12:02 PM Rrhain has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1404 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(2)
Message 1565 of 4573 (825568)
12-16-2017 6:45 AM
Reply to: Message 1560 by Percy
12-15-2017 1:54 PM


Re: The Biggest Pinocchios of 2017
This one surprised me, too, because it seemed so minor compared to the others. Here's that part of the The biggest Pinocchios of 2017 article:
quote:
Tax benefits for colleges and students were killed to give a tax break to private jet owners
Democratic National Committee Chairman Tom Perez was one of several Democrats (including Harris) who jumped on reports that there was a provision in the Senate tax bill that provided regulatory clarity on a tax that has never successfully been imposed on private jet management companies. Perez falsely called it a tax break that came at the expense of college students. The tax provision is so minor that the cost to the Treasury is under $50,000 a year less than the tuition and fees for one student at Harvard University.
I interpreted this as saying two things:
  • There's no actual connection in the tax bill between college related tax benefits and taxes on private jets.
Curiously I take as hyperbole to emphasize a point.
It would have been more accurate to say
Tax benefits for colleges and students were killed, but they give a tax benefit to private jet owners
Showing that it is all about different priorities.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1560 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 1:54 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(3)
Message 1566 of 4573 (825597)
12-16-2017 11:07 AM


George Carlin was wrong
Well, it's finally official; George Carlin did not know what the Seven Forbidden Words were!
This has to be a new triumph of COMEDY!
quote:
The forbidden words are vulnerable, entitlement, diversity, transgender, fetus, evidence-based and science-based.
George; I bet you're sorry you did not stick around to see this routine!
Edited by jar, : appalin spallin

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1567 of 4573 (825601)
12-16-2017 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 1563 by NoNukes
12-15-2017 6:39 PM


Re: The Biggest Pinocchios of 2017
NoNukes writes:
No, that's not what he said. His statement was not intended to be taken to imply a direct one to one correspondence.
Here's what Tom Perez, DNC Chairman, said:
quote:
Tax benefits for colleges and students were killed to give a tax break to private jet owners
To me this declares that there was "a direct one to one correspondence" between "Tax benefits for colleges and students" on the one hand and "a tax break to private jet owners" on the other, so we'll just have to disagree about the meaning of plain English.
But I delved into this a little more, and if you give Does the Senate tax bill really offer a tax break for private jets, as key Democrats claim? a read you'll find that what the WP quoted in their "Biggest Pinocchios" article is not what Perez actually tweeted, which was:
quote:
Let’s end tax benefits for colleges and students and give a tax break to private jet owners.
That is nowhere near as direct a connection as the other quote. In fact, it looks like nothing more than a sarcastic comment about how the bill hurt higher education and while benefiting private jet owners. It looks innocuous and deserving of maybe a single Pinocchio for getting it wrong that private jet owners received a tax break.
I hereby award the Washington Post four Pinocchios, and I now agree with you that that one didn't belong in the list. I'd argue the point with the WP, but I'm not a subscriber, so there are no comment channels open to me. The only reason I can read it at all is because I block Javascript on their pages. I should subscribe, but I already subscribe to the NYT, and I can't afford another subscription.
The provision for taxing grad students did not make it into the reconciled legislation according to what I read minutes ago on CNN.
Oh, that's wonderful news. I know people who would have been affected. They've been going crazy.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1563 by NoNukes, posted 12-15-2017 6:39 PM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1571 by NoNukes, posted 12-17-2017 8:07 PM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22388
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1568 of 4573 (825603)
12-16-2017 12:02 PM
Reply to: Message 1564 by Rrhain
12-16-2017 1:27 AM


Re: The Biggest Pinocchios of 2017
Rrhain writes:
But the thing is, we already had this calculation back when the ACA was being debated.
Harvard Medical School produced a study in 2009 that indicated that 45,000 deaths each year due to lack of insurance. If we were to repeal the ACA and not replace it, we would go back to that situation we had before and there's no reason that people without health insurance would suddenly not die.
If you look at Bernie Sanders’s claim that ‘36,000 people will die yearly’ if Obamacare is repealed you'll see that more recent numbers are available now, and you'll see discussed why they gave Bernie four Pinocchios.
Regarding Harris' comments,...
The blurb says that Harris incorrectly characterized the GOP plan as denying coverage to people with preexisting conditions, and that she confused employer-provided insurance with individual insurance, and in that way arrived at a figure nearly an order of magnitude larger than the total number of people in the individual market regulated by the ACA. The bad math alone seems to make it a four Pinocchio remark.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1564 by Rrhain, posted 12-16-2017 1:27 AM Rrhain has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1569 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:36 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1569 of 4573 (825744)
12-17-2017 2:36 PM
Reply to: Message 1568 by Percy
12-16-2017 12:02 PM


Trump versus Mueller
3 Ways Trump Or His Allies Might Try To Disrupt The Mueller Russia Probe
The three ways are:
  • 1. Find a way to replace the attorney general
  • 2. Fire Justice Department officials who refuse to dismiss the special counsel, until you find one who will
  • 3. Pressure the Justice Department to investigate the investigators
    The article expounds the idea behind each possibility.

    Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. —RC Sproul
    "A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." —Mark Twain "
    ~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
    Paul was probably SO soaked in prayer nobody else has ever equaled him.~Faith

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 1568 by Percy, posted 12-16-2017 12:02 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1570 by RAZD, posted 12-17-2017 4:03 PM Phat has not replied

      
    RAZD
    Member (Idle past 1404 days)
    Posts: 20714
    From: the other end of the sidewalk
    Joined: 03-14-2004


    (4)
    Message 1570 of 4573 (825772)
    12-17-2017 4:03 PM
    Reply to: Message 1569 by Phat
    12-17-2017 2:36 PM


    Trump versus the CDC
    Due to the new imperial edict from Trump Ego Tower comes this report

    we are limited in our ability to understand
    by our ability to understand
    RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
    ... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
    to share.


    Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1569 by Phat, posted 12-17-2017 2:36 PM Phat has not replied

      
    NoNukes
    Inactive Member


    (1)
    Message 1571 of 4573 (825781)
    12-17-2017 8:07 PM
    Reply to: Message 1567 by Percy
    12-16-2017 11:36 AM


    Re: The Biggest Pinocchios of 2017
    It looks innocuous and deserving of maybe a single Pinocchio for getting it wrong that private jet owners received a tax break.
    Sigh. Jet owners was surely meant as a euphemism for "really rich folks". No direct connection between tax benefits was ever intended.
    Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

    Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
    I was thinking as long as I have my hands up they’re not going to shoot me. This is what I’m thinking they’re not going to shoot me. Wow, was I wrong. -- Charles Kinsey
    We got a thousand points of light for the homeless man. We've got a kinder, gentler, machine gun hand. Neil Young, Rockin' in the Free World.
    Worrying about the "browning of America" is not racism. -- Faith
    I hate you all, you hate me -- Faith

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1567 by Percy, posted 12-16-2017 11:36 AM Percy has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1572 by Percy, posted 12-18-2017 9:59 AM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22388
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 5.2


    Message 1572 of 4573 (825819)
    12-18-2017 9:59 AM
    Reply to: Message 1571 by NoNukes
    12-17-2017 8:07 PM


    Re: The Biggest Pinocchios of 2017
    NoNukes writes:
    Sigh. Jet owners was surely meant as a euphemism for "really rich folks". No direct connection between tax benefits was ever intended.
    No, this would be incorrect. This is discussed in detail in Does the Senate tax bill really offer a tax break for private jets, as key Democrats claim?, whose link also appeared in the message you just replied to.
    --Percy

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1571 by NoNukes, posted 12-17-2017 8:07 PM NoNukes has seen this message but not replied

      
    Percy
    Member
    Posts: 22388
    From: New Hampshire
    Joined: 12-23-2000
    Member Rating: 5.2


    (3)
    Message 1573 of 4573 (826030)
    12-20-2017 7:41 PM


    Trump Admits What the Republican Tax Bill Was All About
    The Republican tax bill has passed, President Trump will sign it, then it will be the law of the land. Speaking at today's signing President Trump made two admissions:
    • About corporate tax rate reductions: "That's probably the biggest factor in our plan."
      There you have it from the horse's mouth: It wasn't about a middle-class tax cut, but cutting business taxes.
    • About the ACA's individual mandate repeal: "When the individual mandate is being repealed, that means Obamacare is being repealed. Because they get their money from the individual mandate. Obamacare has been repealed in this bill."
      Trump is probably correct. Obamacare should now collapse since the funding for preexisting conditions is now gone.
    See Trump just admitted the GOP’s tax cuts were deceptively sold
    --Percy
    Edited by Percy, : Correct that Trump hasn't signed the bill yet. Evidently there was no signing at yesterday's ceremony. Trump may wait until January to sign the bill.

      
    Heathen
    Member (Idle past 1283 days)
    Posts: 1067
    From: Brizzle
    Joined: 09-20-2005


    (3)
    Message 1574 of 4573 (826044)
    12-21-2017 1:51 AM


    Trump will personally save up to $15m under tax bill, analysis finds
    "Jared Kushner will save up to $12m, while five other members of Trump’s inner circle will also see benefits worth millions of dollars"
    It seems a last minute bill was added to provide massive benefits to real estate firms, notably a loophole that trump personally benefits from with his golf courses.
    can any Trump supporter please explain how this is defensible? anyone?
    Trump will personally save up to $15m under tax bill, analysis finds | Donald Trump | The Guardian
    Edited by Heathen, : No reason given.

    Replies to this message:
     Message 1575 by jar, posted 12-21-2017 7:25 AM Heathen has not replied

      
    jar
    Member (Idle past 393 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 1575 of 4573 (826046)
    12-21-2017 7:25 AM
    Reply to: Message 1574 by Heathen
    12-21-2017 1:51 AM


    Re: Trump will personally save up to $15m under tax bill, analysis finds
    But wait; there's more.
    The Corporate Tax portions were made permanent. They cannot be undone by a future Congress without great difficulty.

    My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 1574 by Heathen, posted 12-21-2017 1:51 AM Heathen has not replied

      
    Newer Topic | Older Topic
    Jump to:


    Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

    ™ Version 4.2
    Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024