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Author Topic:   Where should there be "The right to refuse service"?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 256 of 928 (729164)
06-06-2014 8:05 AM
Reply to: Message 255 by Heathen
06-06-2014 3:55 AM


Re: The Real Issue Here
No I do not think homosexuals qualify to be a special class. They are sinners like the rest of us. However, since they can be targeted as victims that is a reason to define them as protected from discrimination.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 255 by Heathen, posted 06-06-2014 3:55 AM Heathen has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 267 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2014 10:30 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 257 of 928 (729165)
06-06-2014 8:06 AM
Reply to: Message 253 by dwise1
06-06-2014 3:22 AM


Re: Denial of service and not the person?
No I never said "perfect" knowledge of what God wants.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 253 by dwise1, posted 06-06-2014 3:22 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 266 by dwise1, posted 06-06-2014 10:08 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 309 by JonF, posted 06-07-2014 8:37 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 258 of 928 (729166)
06-06-2014 8:14 AM
Reply to: Message 254 by PaulK
06-06-2014 3:22 AM


Re: Denial of service and not the person?
I'm not interested in discriminating against homosexuals as I've said a million times already. I was giving a logical answer to your question, but of course you have to make it into some kind of accusation. Here's another logical answer to the question: have a law declaring that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what many states have tried to do. But it's been called unconstitutional. Which of course is insane and contrary to the will of the people, which obviously doesn't matter any more. A tiny minority now has rights over the majority of the people.
However, the answer to your question is that, given the current climate of legal opinion, there is no way to provide a legal basis for Christians to refuse to honor gay weddings. And that brings us back to the situation I keep describing. Christians will refuse to serve gay weddings because it is a violation of God's law, and the fascist state that denies us our religious rights will have to punish us.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 254 by PaulK, posted 06-06-2014 3:22 AM PaulK has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 264 by PaulK, posted 06-06-2014 9:41 AM Faith has not replied
 Message 265 by RAZD, posted 06-06-2014 9:45 AM Faith has replied
 Message 298 by Modulous, posted 06-06-2014 5:25 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 259 of 928 (729169)
06-06-2014 8:29 AM
Reply to: Message 232 by Faith
06-05-2014 8:41 PM


Re: Denial of service and not the person?
No you haven't.
Lying for Jesus?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 232 by Faith, posted 06-05-2014 8:41 PM Faith has not replied

  
Straggler
Member
Posts: 10333
From: London England
Joined: 09-30-2006


(1)
Message 260 of 928 (729170)
06-06-2014 8:30 AM
Reply to: Message 228 by Faith
06-05-2014 8:20 PM


Re: Denial of service and not the person?
Like anyone who wants their particular brand of theocracy to be in place you are frustrated that it's not and that others won't accept your belief that you have the correct version of God's will.
This isn't a Christian problem. It's a problem for all religious fundamentalists who believe the law should be based on their specific theistic beliefs whatever stripe those beliefs might be (fundamentalist Christian, Muslim or anything else)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 228 by Faith, posted 06-05-2014 8:20 PM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


(2)
Message 261 of 928 (729171)
06-06-2014 8:32 AM
Reply to: Message 235 by Faith
06-06-2014 12:07 AM


Re: Denial of service and not the person?
Do you have any idea what the term fascist even means? Since you seem to like the term so much, why don't you give us what you think is a working definition so we can be sure we are all in agreement and are using the term in the same manner.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 235 by Faith, posted 06-06-2014 12:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 262 of 928 (729172)
06-06-2014 8:38 AM
Reply to: Message 245 by Faith
06-06-2014 2:39 AM


Re: Denial of service and not the person?
simply standard Protestant Christianity which I share with the vast majority of Protestant groups.
But the majority of protestants disagree with you. You make all these exalted claims, but your beliefs are the outliers.
What is fascistic?

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 245 by Faith, posted 06-06-2014 2:39 AM Faith has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


Message 263 of 928 (729173)
06-06-2014 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 164 by ringo
06-05-2014 12:09 PM


Re: An Established History
Again, nothing was said about "abuse". Nothing was said about "decorum". As the proprietor you are allowed to have an immature reaction to an innocent action but the law shouldn't back up your hissy-fit.
First, I know you have heard of Rebecca Watson and the elevator. Second, if your police are not doing their job of defusing a situation before assessing blame your community has a problem.
We can argue the trivialities and nuances of any situation till the cows come home.
Regardless, the point remains. Society has a right to expect service from a business in the open marketplace. The business cannot discriminate by class of people. But, the proprietor also has rights to refuse service to any individual that violates any norms the proprietor sets for the conduct of his business. And this right is enforceable so long as the norms set are individually based, apply to all persons and are not used to discriminate against any specific class.
Those norms can be pretty broadly structured and it doesn't matter if anyone finds them immature or silly or the result of a personal hissy-fit. So long as the result is not class discrimination, whether it should or shouldn't, the court will indeed back your hissy-fit because there is no law against it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 164 by ringo, posted 06-05-2014 12:09 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 271 by ringo, posted 06-06-2014 12:03 PM AZPaul3 has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


(1)
Message 264 of 928 (729175)
06-06-2014 9:41 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
06-06-2014 8:14 AM


Re: Denial of service and not the person?
quote:
I'm not interested in discriminating against homosexuals as I've said a million times already.
But you specifically suggested ending legal protection against discrimination.
quote:
I was giving a logical answer to your question,
It was a very revealing answer, but not especially logical. You might as well have said that there was no reason that the courts should apply. But that would be more openly conceding the point.
quote:
Here's another logical answer to the question: have a law declaring that marriage is between a man and a woman.
Which mean enshrining the discrimination you say you don't want in law. However, it is another answer which concedes the point.
You've proven that religious freedom is not a relevant issue. Just as you've shown that the Bible does not support your position. You need to quit rationalising and start understanding yourself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-06-2014 8:14 AM Faith has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(4)
Message 265 of 928 (729176)
06-06-2014 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 258 by Faith
06-06-2014 8:14 AM


Definition of Equality?
... Here's another logical answer to the question: have a law declaring that marriage is between a man and a woman. That's what many states have tried to do. But it's been called unconstitutional. ...
Can you define equality in a way that does not apply to homosexuals?
I get the following:
e•qual•i•ty
noun, plural equalities.
1. the state or quality of being equal; correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability. ...
I'm not interested in discriminating against homosexuals as I've said a million times already. ...
But you are drawing a line between homosexuals and heterosexuals, and that is de facto discrimination.
Any time you do "them" vs "us" you are discriminating.
Equality is about treating everybody the same ("correspondence in quantity, degree, value, rank, or ability. ...").
However, the answer to your question is that, given the current climate of legal opinion, there is no way to provide a legal basis for Christians to refuse to honor gay weddings. And that brings us back to the situation I keep describing. Christians will refuse to serve gay weddings because it is a violation of God's law, and the fascist state that denies us our religious rights will have to punish us.
It is a state where the social norms are decided by the people not by one religion, where secular values are honored in government free of dominance by one religion.
If that means denying you the "right" to be a bigoted biased discriminating fundamentalist using religion as a crutch, then boo hoo.
Enjoy.

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by our ability to understand
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This message is a reply to:
 Message 258 by Faith, posted 06-06-2014 8:14 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 283 by Faith, posted 06-06-2014 3:46 PM RAZD has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 266 of 928 (729178)
06-06-2014 10:08 AM
Reply to: Message 257 by Faith
06-06-2014 8:06 AM


Re: Denial of service and not the person?
You claimed to have such a perfect knowledge of "God's mind" about everything. So you damned well need to be able to prove that!
Of course, we are all too well aware of the outright lies that Christians will say. Such that we know all too well to question each and every claim that any Christian will say.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 257 by Faith, posted 06-06-2014 8:06 AM Faith has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


(3)
Message 267 of 928 (729179)
06-06-2014 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 256 by Faith
06-06-2014 8:05 AM


Re: The Real Issue Here
They are sinners like the rest of us. However, since they can be targeted as victims that is a reason to define them as protected from discrimination.
That's exactly what people mean when they refer to a 'special class' or a 'protected class' for discrimination purposes.
Currently, gay people are not recognized as such a class under the 14th Amendment. Under federal law, their status is much like that of women who are not recognized as a fully protected class either under the 14th amendment either.
In any event, I think most people are making too much of a big deal about what you think. You aren't in much of a position to discriminate against anyone. Further, given the goofy stuff you say about history (e.g. don't recall people resisting desegregation, don't recall the Puritan's policy of persecuting Quakers, think King James was blameless), it is hard to see why anybody cares about your opinion anyway.
I say, just let Faith hate whoever she wants. Nobody will even notice.
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 256 by Faith, posted 06-06-2014 8:05 AM Faith has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 268 by dronestar, posted 06-06-2014 10:56 AM NoNukes has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 268 of 928 (729180)
06-06-2014 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 267 by NoNukes
06-06-2014 10:30 AM


Re: The Real Issue Here
NN writes:
In any event, I think most people are making too much of a big deal about what you think.
Too true. The patience and respect some members give to messages of hateful, hypocritical, retardation is far beyond anything I would or could ever muster.
NN writes:
I say, just let Faith hate whoever she wants. Nobody will even notice.
Well, you may be correct about one hateful retard not sinking society. But what about 50,000,000-300,000,000? Currently, the majority of americans support torture, random drone assassinations that murder children, and endless military solutions that target non-white, non-christian populations. Horrifically, I think Faith's hateful discrimination toward "other" people accurately epitomizes the american citizen.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 267 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2014 10:30 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 269 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2014 11:28 AM dronestar has replied
 Message 299 by AdminModulous, posted 06-06-2014 5:28 PM dronestar has not replied

  
NoNukes
Inactive Member


Message 269 of 928 (729182)
06-06-2014 11:28 AM
Reply to: Message 268 by dronestar
06-06-2014 10:56 AM


Re: The Real Issue Here
300,000,000 dronestar??
Is that every man, woman, and child except you?
Edited by NoNukes, : No reason given.

Under a government which imprisons any unjustly, the true place for a just man is also in prison. Thoreau: Civil Disobedience (1846)
I have never met a man so ignorant that I couldn't learn something from him. Galileo Galilei
If there is no struggle, there is no progress. Those who profess to favor freedom, and deprecate agitation, are men who want crops without plowing up the ground, they want rain without thunder and lightning. Frederick Douglass

This message is a reply to:
 Message 268 by dronestar, posted 06-06-2014 10:56 AM dronestar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 270 by dronestar, posted 06-06-2014 11:47 AM NoNukes has replied

  
dronestar
Member
Posts: 1407
From: usa
Joined: 11-19-2008


Message 270 of 928 (729185)
06-06-2014 11:47 AM
Reply to: Message 269 by NoNukes
06-06-2014 11:28 AM


Re: The Real Issue Here
Hi NN,
NN writes:
Is that every man, woman, and child except you?
Some days, I'm not even sure I am on my side.
If I use election results as a guide, I would say I am in a very small minority of americans who think similarly: 5%?
(Which might explain why billions of people on this forum often think I write in hyperbole.)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 269 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2014 11:28 AM NoNukes has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 272 by NoNukes, posted 06-06-2014 12:10 PM dronestar has replied

  
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