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Author Topic:   No Abiogenesis, no Evolution, then what?
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 76 of 173 (250128)
10-08-2005 5:37 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Yaro
10-08-2005 1:20 PM


Re: Some alternatives
Yaro
You previously stated
I can see this as an option, but that eternal thing is contingent on existence. There is no all-powerfull, trancendent thing.
To be transcendant is to have no location in spacetime and a substance that cannot be differentiated from nothing at all. Hence to be be a thing in the usual sense of the word is not possible for that which is transcendent?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Yaro, posted 10-08-2005 1:20 PM Yaro has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by Yaro, posted 10-10-2005 8:44 AM sidelined has replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 77 of 173 (250160)
10-08-2005 8:52 PM
Reply to: Message 65 by Faith
10-08-2005 1:35 AM


Re: Some alternatives
Faith,
I respectfully request a reply to Message 44 of this thread.
BTW: How do I put in a link to another message?
Edited to use the link method that jar showed me.
This message has been edited by bkelly, 10-08-2005 09:03 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 65 by Faith, posted 10-08-2005 1:35 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 10-08-2005 8:55 PM bkelly has replied
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 10-08-2005 9:28 PM bkelly has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 173 (250161)
10-08-2005 8:55 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by bkelly
10-08-2005 8:52 PM


Re: Some alternatives
Check Message 44
Use Peek (lowerright) to see how I did it.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by bkelly, posted 10-08-2005 8:52 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by bkelly, posted 10-08-2005 9:01 PM jar has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 79 of 173 (250162)
10-08-2005 8:58 PM
Reply to: Message 46 by Chiroptera
10-07-2005 7:55 PM


Re: Not preposterous at all.
Everything had a begining.
Chiroptera writes:
That is an unproven assertian.
I find it interesting that you do not apply this statement to those about god having no beginning and life existing in eternity. All statements about god and his deeds are assertions without proof.

Truth fears no question.
bkelly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 46 by Chiroptera, posted 10-07-2005 7:55 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by jar, posted 10-08-2005 9:03 PM bkelly has not replied
 Message 83 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2005 9:42 PM bkelly has replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 173 (250164)
10-08-2005 9:01 PM
Reply to: Message 78 by jar
10-08-2005 8:55 PM


Re: Some alternatives
referencing msg Message 78
I was expecting more complicated.
Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 10-08-2005 8:55 PM jar has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 395 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 81 of 173 (250165)
10-08-2005 9:03 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by bkelly
10-08-2005 8:58 PM


Re: Not preposterous at all.
That's OT both in this thread and forum. We're in a Faith forum and thus beliefs about GOD are acceptable and appropriate.
Now if you can show evidence to support the position that life had a beginning ...

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by bkelly, posted 10-08-2005 8:58 PM bkelly has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 82 of 173 (250171)
10-08-2005 9:28 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by bkelly
10-08-2005 8:52 PM


Re: Some alternatives
Thank you for respectfully requesting an answer, but the post itself is disrespectful and I ignored it because of that. If you don't want to take the trouble to find out what Christians actually believe, and simply prefer to impose your own gross caricature on us, there is simply nothing to say to you. Sorry.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by bkelly, posted 10-08-2005 8:52 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by bkelly, posted 10-08-2005 9:45 PM Faith has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 173 (250174)
10-08-2005 9:42 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by bkelly
10-08-2005 8:58 PM


Re: Not preposterous at all.
Hello, bkelly.
I'm afraid that your response neither supports the claim that everything had a beginning, nor does it acknowledge that it is possible that some things might not have had a beginning. So the claim, "Everything had a beginning" is still sort of just hanging there.

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by bkelly, posted 10-08-2005 8:58 PM bkelly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by bkelly, posted 10-08-2005 9:53 PM Chiroptera has replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 84 of 173 (250175)
10-08-2005 9:45 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by Faith
10-08-2005 9:28 PM


Re: Some alternatives
I believe (carefully making this a statement of opinion rather than fact) that you ignored the message, not because it was disrespectful, but because you do not have a valid answer. The gross caricature is not from me, it is from the bible.
Jar's message 81 is quite debatable, but for now, given that request, if there is no response to this post I will back out of this thread.
My signature is my parting note.

Truth fears no question.
bkelly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by Faith, posted 10-08-2005 9:28 PM Faith has not replied

  
bkelly
Inactive Member


Message 85 of 173 (250177)
10-08-2005 9:53 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Chiroptera
10-08-2005 9:42 PM


Re: Not preposterous at all.
As I saw the post I am responding to after I made my last post, this is a more friendly response, I hope you will allow an exception to that last post.
nor does it acknowledge that it is possible that some things might not have had a beginning.
I do have a real problem with that. The concept that everything had to have a beginning is self contained paradox. Where did everything come from in the very beginning. That is a problem that I really cannot see a way to even begin to approach, much less begin to wrap my brain around.

Truth fears no question.
bkelly

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2005 9:42 PM Chiroptera has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2005 9:57 PM bkelly has not replied

  
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 86 of 173 (250178)
10-08-2005 9:57 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by bkelly
10-08-2005 9:53 PM


Re: Not preposterous at all.
Interesting. Myself, I have trouble comprehending the concept that the universe (with time and space and all that is in it) had a "beginning" a finite time ago. I find an eternal universe much more comprehensible. And if the universe has existed forever (an idea, I admit, that seems to be contradicted by modern cosmology), it is easy (for me, at any rate) to conceive that life may have existed forever. Interesting how different people think differently, no?

"Intellectually, scientifically, even artistically, fundamentalism -- biblical literalism -- is a road to nowhere, because it insists on fidelity to revealed truths that are not true." -- Katha Pollitt

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by bkelly, posted 10-08-2005 9:53 PM bkelly has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 90 by cavediver, posted 10-11-2005 10:21 AM Chiroptera has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 87 of 173 (250390)
10-10-2005 8:44 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by sidelined
10-08-2005 5:37 PM


Re: Some alternatives
To be transcendant is to have no location in spacetime and a substance that cannot be differentiated from nothing at all. Hence to be be a thing in the usual sense of the word is not possible for that which is transcendent?
Yes, that's a very good way of explaining it Thank you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by sidelined, posted 10-08-2005 5:37 PM sidelined has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by sidelined, posted 10-10-2005 4:53 PM Yaro has not replied

  
Yaro
Member (Idle past 6496 days)
Posts: 1797
Joined: 07-12-2003


Message 88 of 173 (250391)
10-10-2005 8:49 AM


Infinite Regression
I offten here this pointed out as a solid fact by the faithfull. "You can't have infinite regression!"
What's the deal? Sure you can! There is nothing illogical about it. Infact, not accepting the idea forces you to adopt an idiotic self refuting idea of an uncaused cause. What the hell is an uncaused cause?!

  
sidelined
Member (Idle past 5909 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 89 of 173 (250493)
10-10-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by Yaro
10-10-2005 8:44 AM


Re: Some alternatives
Yaro
You are welcome m'lady

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by Yaro, posted 10-10-2005 8:44 AM Yaro has not replied

  
cavediver
Member (Idle past 3644 days)
Posts: 4129
From: UK
Joined: 06-16-2005


Message 90 of 173 (250747)
10-11-2005 10:21 AM
Reply to: Message 86 by Chiroptera
10-08-2005 9:57 PM


Re: Not preposterous at all.
And if the universe has existed forever (an idea, I admit, that seems to be contradicted by modern cosmology)
Not really. There are no observations that suggest a beginning to time 14 billion years ago. Only the maths of BBT show a "beginning" but BBT is purely classical. Some of our quantum modifications allow the universe to have an inifinte past, others retain the "beginning" a finite time in the past. We have no idea

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by Chiroptera, posted 10-08-2005 9:57 PM Chiroptera has not replied

  
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