Did Jesus die in vain?

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I assume that when you refer to sin you are not speaking about the acts that are generally considered sinful (e.g. murder, rape, etc), since those obviously exist, but rather some metaphysical 'sinfulness'?

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Yes indeed, thank you for providing an opportunity for clarification. I see many acts that would be considered sinful depending on your Weltanschauung but no evidence that this concept of sinfulness has any metaphysical basis.

Sorry I get mixed up with the various christian god concepts - yours is the one where God and Jesus are seperate entities? or have I got that wrong?

What do you mean by separate entity? Do you mean separate entity like I'm a separate entity to you (as far as we can tell). In that case then no, that's not my concept. A single entity God who finds expression through 3 harmonised and co-joined personhoods would be something of how I see it.In principle, forgiveness involves the offended party paying the price for the offence themselves. God is the one offended and is the one who forgives. And must be the one to pay the price. How that transaction works within the enterprise "God" is an internal accounting / legal / love /wrath etc matter for God.God offended / God forgives / God pays

but if it's an "internal accounting" matter - what's the interest to the rest of us?Because from the outside looking in, it looks like an enron shell game.

I'm not sure that Gods book keeping need be of interest "to the rest of us". Spoken like a man on the outside looking in.

I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I want to understand more about those who do follow Jesus and believe in god.Is there any evidence that the man Jesus existed?What do you term as sin?

Hi Iano weired as it sounds but from your perspective (I'm remembering our GD) you make perfect sense.Nice to see you again, by the way.Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

Hi Heinrik.Iano and I hade a Great Debate here:http://EvC Forum: Great Debate: Romans 1-9 - Larni and Iano -->EvC Forum: Great Debate: Romans 1-9 - Larni and IanoIt's pretty long takes some reading but Iano does a good job of explaining that Jesus definitly did not die in vian.I take off my atheist hat during the whole debate so I'm not constantly harping that Jesus was not divine.

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Is there any evidence that the man Jesus existed?

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There is plenty of evidence that a guy of that description really existed - the guy in the bible is a construct based upon a historical figure and other bids and bods.

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What do you term as sin?

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I don't - I look at action and consequences and what actions society or myself consider to be good or bad - but it's all relative - sin as a fixed concept provided by the christian god doesn't exist.I'm an atheist - so it would be pretty odd for me to believe in the concept of sin as defined by christians!Now as for the question of did Jesus die in vain - let me amend my original answer - if he died for the metaphysical reason of sin - then yes he died in vain. If he died in the narrative because it provided a handy end to a series of stories of useful life lessons - well maybe not.Edited by CK, : clarification.

way ahead of yourself here. Where the fuck has all this come from?and this...... Good god, man? How much is z? God's wrath or martyr?I don't get your point.

Thanks. Did you believe him? Did anyone change their minds?

can you give me this concept? So are you saying you don't know? Are these not just a couple of hypothesis based on what you think and your life experiences?Are these the only two possible answers or are there many alternatives?

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Did Jesus truly die for our sins? It seems we are to be eternally grateful and yet the world is full of sin. Does this make sense?

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I thought that the whole point of Christianity was that Jesus died so that our sins would be forgiven, not so that there would be no more sinning.That is the central theme of the entire religion, I thought.

Of course not. There are several assumptions that I just cannot make that I would need to make to beleive. Of course not. But it was damn interesting. Iano really did get his message across about what he believes about the sacrifice Jesus is proposed to have made.If one makes the same assumptions that he has his logic does make sense.

What is Sin?Sin is what seperates us from God

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"Surely the arm of the LORD is not too short to save, nor His ear too dull to hear," says Isaiah 59: 1-2. "But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden His face from you, so that He will not hear."

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Now as for what particular act are sin - some are defined in the bible, some are created whole-cloth by christians when they want to oppress someone.

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So are you saying you don't know? Are these not just a couple of hypothesis based on what you think and your life experiences?

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No I'm saying that all of the evidence points to the fact that the bible is false, that sin does not exist, that the christian god concept does not exist - on that level - if a real person died in an attempt to take on our sins - he failed because it's impossible.However if we don't take the bible in a literal fashion and try to see it as a series of life lessons, then Jesus dying as part of the narrative might have been useful because the story can be used as part of our explorations of the life lessons contained with.Even as a fictional figure, the biblical Jesus had some nice ideas for behaviour and conduct assigned to him - so the literal truth may be less important than the message behind the narrative.