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Author Topic:   Off Topic Posts aka Rabbit Trail Thread - Mostly YEC Geology
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 376 of 409 (686316)
12-31-2012 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 375 by dwise1
12-31-2012 6:23 AM


Re: Finding Oil
But what places all those different species in entirely different strata?
How is this relevant to finding oil or anything else? This is the question YOU have to answer. So far all anyone has done is LOCATE certain fossils in certain rocks as the clue to what you are looking for. Again, we all live in this same world, we can all see where the fossils are located, in which rocks etc. so presumably a YEC could follow exactly the same clues to finding oil that you can. How they got there doesn't seem relevant to me yet. You have your explanation about age but I don't see that it contributes anything to the practical issue at hand.
Your model says that they all existed at the same time. What would place all those different species existing at the same time into entirely different strata. Your only explanation: magic.
Why does this question have to be answered in order to find oil or gas or gold or whatever? You must think this is getting answered here but it is not. It's just a tacked-on notion about the location of things, when it's the location itself that is the clue to what you are trying to find.
Old-earth explanation: those different species existed at different times. The species that existed at the times that the strata were laid down are the ones that we find there.
That is indeed the OE explanation. That it has anything to do with finding oil or anything else has not been shown although you seem to think it has.
Again, your only explanation: magic.
I'm not giving an explanation in this discussion. And again, YECs know where the fossils are located just as you do and again that seems to be the relevant fact here, not the age of anything.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 375 by dwise1, posted 12-31-2012 6:23 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 377 by dwise1, posted 12-31-2012 6:51 AM Faith has replied
 Message 379 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2012 7:03 AM Faith has replied
 Message 385 by bernd, posted 12-31-2012 11:14 AM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(1)
Message 377 of 409 (686319)
12-31-2012 6:51 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Faith
12-31-2012 6:32 AM


Re: Finding Oil
How is this relevant to finding oil or anything else? This is the question YOU have to answer.
I already have: They existed at different times.
You claim that they all existed at the same time. So just how does your claim explain what we observe? All you have is magic! So please kindly own up to it!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 6:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 6:57 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 378 of 409 (686320)
12-31-2012 6:57 AM
Reply to: Message 377 by dwise1
12-31-2012 6:51 AM


Re: Finding Oil
How does the idea that they existed at different times have anything to do with locating oil or etc.?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 377 by dwise1, posted 12-31-2012 6:51 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 381 by dwise1, posted 12-31-2012 7:09 AM Faith has replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(3)
Message 379 of 409 (686321)
12-31-2012 7:03 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Faith
12-31-2012 6:32 AM


Re: Finding Oil
I'm not giving an explanation in this discussion. And again, YECs know where the fossils are located just as you do and again that seems to be the relevant fact here, not the age of anything.
I have an empty glass beaker and some beads of the same size and shape. I have 5 handfuls of different coloured beads and a single gold bead.
In the beaker I put a layer of green beads, then a layer of red. Then my gold bead, then purple beads, then orange and finally blue.
Because the beads were placed in the beaker a layer at a time - at different times (the geologist's model) - I always know that the gold bead is between the red and the purple layer.
If I now shake the beaker up then let it all settle back (the flood model), where is the gold bead? What is the flood geologist now looking for to find it?
Edited by Tangle, : No reason given.

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 6:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 380 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 7:08 AM Tangle has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 380 of 409 (686322)
12-31-2012 7:08 AM
Reply to: Message 379 by Tangle
12-31-2012 7:03 AM


Re: Finding Oil
That is not the flood model, that's your own made-up nonsense. Floodists know the strata and the fossils got sorted as they did so we have exactly the same information you have about where to locate the gold bead.
And if your example WERE the geological model they would explain the location of the gold bead in terms of its original location just as I keep saying must be the method they use, but they keep insisting it's about the age of the strata. Your model doesn't represent that claim they make.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 379 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2012 7:03 AM Tangle has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 384 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2012 7:58 AM Faith has replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


Message 381 of 409 (686323)
12-31-2012 7:09 AM
Reply to: Message 378 by Faith
12-31-2012 6:57 AM


Re: Finding Oil
How does the idea that they existed at different times have anything to do with locating oil or etc.?
It places those strata where we would expect them to be.
Your approach would mix those index fossils together so that we would be unable to distinguish one stratum from another. Outside of the intervening action of magic.
Again, learn something about geology and take the time to take with geologists.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 378 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 6:57 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 7:12 AM dwise1 has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 382 of 409 (686324)
12-31-2012 7:12 AM
Reply to: Message 381 by dwise1
12-31-2012 7:09 AM


Re: Finding Oil
You are imagining "my model" in your own terms, it is not my model. My model knows things are located where they ARE located in the real world. So we would know just as you do where to expect things to be.
But I think this discussion HAS given me the answer. The age of things has absolutely NOTHING to do with finding oil or gold etc., it IS all a matter of WHERE THE STRATA AND THE FOSSILS ARE LOCATED, and YECs have access to that same information just from observing the world as we find it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 381 by dwise1, posted 12-31-2012 7:09 AM dwise1 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 383 by dwise1, posted 12-31-2012 7:22 AM Faith has replied
 Message 397 by roxrkool, posted 12-31-2012 3:04 PM Faith has not replied

  
dwise1
Member
Posts: 5930
Joined: 05-02-2006
Member Rating: 5.8


(2)
Message 383 of 409 (686325)
12-31-2012 7:22 AM
Reply to: Message 382 by Faith
12-31-2012 7:12 AM


Re: Finding Oil
Your "model" is pure bullshit.
The only way that you can know where the strata are located is because of the work of geologists, not of creationists.
The way that geologists identify a particular stratum is from the index fossils that they find therein. Just exactly how did those particular index fossils get in that particular stratum, a stratum that extends over a vast geological region? You want to claim that all those different species of index fossils existed at the exact same time, which means that you need to come up with some kind of magic explanation of how they all somehow magically managed to segregate out into entirely different strata. Of course, geologists (you know, the guys who actually know what they are talking about, as opposed to you, the bullshitter ... sorry, the bullshittess) know that those different species existed at different times, at the times that their particular strata were laid down.
IOW, the age of the index fossils, AKA "things", has everything to do with finding oil.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 382 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 7:12 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 386 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 12:28 PM dwise1 has not replied

  
Tangle
Member
Posts: 9489
From: UK
Joined: 10-07-2011
Member Rating: 4.9


(2)
Message 384 of 409 (686326)
12-31-2012 7:58 AM
Reply to: Message 380 by Faith
12-31-2012 7:08 AM


Re: Finding Oil
Faith writes:
Floodists know the strata and the fossils got sorted as they did so we have exactly the same information you have about where to locate the gold bead.
What is the mechanism that separated similar sized particles after a flood? A simple experiment in your kitchen with a hadfull of soil in a bottle of water will show you that the solids settle into strata by size. You can not seperate the strata in any other way unless it happens at different times. There's no avoiding this, it's a simple mechanical certainty.
And if your example WERE the geological model they would explain the location of the gold bead in terms of its original location just as I keep saying must be the method they use, but they keep insisting it's about the age of the strata. Your model doesn't represent that claim they make.
TIME (ie AGE) is your unexplained ingredient. You need to explain how fossils of similar sizes got put into layers if they were all layed down at the same TIME. Geologists say that the fossils are of different ages and were layed down one on top of the other at different TIMES. How can you explain that the different layers were layed down at the same TIME if we know that that is not how particles seperate out of water?

Life, don't talk to me about life - Marvin the Paranoid Android

This message is a reply to:
 Message 380 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 7:08 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 387 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 12:32 PM Tangle has not replied

  
bernd
Member (Idle past 3980 days)
Posts: 95
From: Munich,Germany
Joined: 07-10-2005


Message 385 of 409 (686335)
12-31-2012 11:14 AM
Reply to: Message 376 by Faith
12-31-2012 6:32 AM


Re: Finding Oil
Hello Faith, long time no see! You ask why the concept of deep time is relevant for finding oil. One aspect of your question could be discussed in my thread: Is deep age irrelevant?
I have bumped it for your convenience. Hope to meet you there.
See Message 1

This message is a reply to:
 Message 376 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 6:32 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 12:41 PM bernd has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 386 of 409 (686338)
12-31-2012 12:28 PM
Reply to: Message 383 by dwise1
12-31-2012 7:22 AM


Re: Finding Oil
Creationists are geologists too. There is not a distinction between "creationists" and "geologists." There is a distinction between "young earthers" and "old earthers" whether geologists or not.
It's you, really, who can't account for a layer of sediment extending over such vast distances. That really does take the Flood to explain it. Sediments being laid down today occur at nowhere near that range. As Garner on that UK Creationism video explains.
I don't see that the AGE of the "index fossils" makes one bit of difference. Their existence and predictable occurrence make them useful, nevertheless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 383 by dwise1, posted 12-31-2012 7:22 AM dwise1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 393 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2012 2:23 PM Faith has not replied
 Message 396 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2012 2:31 PM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 387 of 409 (686339)
12-31-2012 12:32 PM
Reply to: Message 384 by Tangle
12-31-2012 7:58 AM


Re: Finding Oil
There has been plenty of discussion about HOW the Flood could have sorted things. Tou are raising questions creationists have answered many times over. In THIS discussion it's irrelevant.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 384 by Tangle, posted 12-31-2012 7:58 AM Tangle has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 388 of 409 (686341)
12-31-2012 12:41 PM
Reply to: Message 385 by bernd
12-31-2012 11:14 AM


Re: Finding Oil
I don't want to get into the deep technical aspects of any of this. Somebody said you need old earth timing to find oil. I just wanted to know how, in ordinary English. I'm convinced more and more from what people are saying that the age part of it is not really relevant, it's certain physical facts that are important, physical facts that can be very complex but are more or less predictable if you know what you are looking for, which should be possible no matter what your theory of age, and while the literature is all bound up in old earth thinking I'm still unconvinced it's necessary.
I gather from Rox's posts that geologists have to wade through a ton of imaginative SCENARIOS to EXPLAIN how rocks got where they are, which makes it clear that geology is just about inextricably bound up in all that scenario-building that is nothing but imagination about the past. Sorting out what is purely physical fact from all that is beyond me.
I can see that it would be an awful let down to have to think all that was REALLY caused by a one time worldwide Flood.
And there's so much hostility about my even suggesting such things I don't see any point in going on.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 385 by bernd, posted 12-31-2012 11:14 AM bernd has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 389 by Coyote, posted 12-31-2012 12:48 PM Faith has replied
 Message 395 by Dr Adequate, posted 12-31-2012 2:29 PM Faith has not replied

  
Coyote
Member (Idle past 2106 days)
Posts: 6117
Joined: 01-12-2008


(1)
Message 389 of 409 (686342)
12-31-2012 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 388 by Faith
12-31-2012 12:41 PM


Re: Finding Oil
And there's so much hostility about my even suggesting such things I don't see any point in going on.
I believe the "hostility" you are seeing is a reaction to your obdurate refusal to accept any evidence, no matter how good, that conflicts with your belief in ancient tribal myths.
You just cover your ears and march on, stubbornly oblivious to the evidence that is all around you.
That is bound to get a negative reaction from those presenting the evidence.

Religious belief does not constitute scientific evidence, nor does it convey scientific knowledge.
Belief gets in the way of learning--Robert A. Heinlein
It's not what we don't know that hurts, it's what we know that ain't so--Will Rogers

This message is a reply to:
 Message 388 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 12:41 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 390 by Faith, posted 12-31-2012 12:54 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 390 of 409 (686344)
12-31-2012 12:54 PM
Reply to: Message 389 by Coyote
12-31-2012 12:48 PM


Re: Finding Oil
Yeah I know the party line, Coyote. It looks different from my side where the evidence you think you have just doesn't do what you think it does. Over and over people seem to think they are proving that age matters, but over and over all they've proved is that certain physical facts are what matter and not age.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 389 by Coyote, posted 12-31-2012 12:48 PM Coyote has seen this message but not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 392 by xongsmith, posted 12-31-2012 1:56 PM Faith has not replied

  
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