|
Author
|
Topic: The Awesome Republican Primary Thread
|
Dr Adequate
Member (Idle past 307 days) Posts: 16113 Joined: 07-20-2006
|
|
Message 1111 of 1485 (709777)
10-30-2013 12:28 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1107 by 1.61803
10-29-2013 6:33 PM
|
|
I also heard that we will have to pay for illegal immigrants to come over here and have babies. That won't really be much of a problem since Obama will eat them.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1107 by 1.61803, posted 10-29-2013 6:33 PM | | 1.61803 has not replied |
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 1112 of 1485 (709792)
10-30-2013 10:17 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1108 by Rahvin
10-29-2013 6:47 PM
|
|
Here in Sacramento, we have a grocery chain that doesn't hire union workers. Basically, their prices are a little lower, in part because they don't hire any baggers, the customers bag their own groceries. Yeah, we have Shop-n-Save and Schnucks. Schnucks is union and more expensive and you bag your own shit at S-n-S. Schnucks has better meat and produce, though. And its cleaner and nicer. I use S-n-S when I just need beer and chips, or whatever, and I use Schnucks when I want fresh food. Schnucks does pay their employees a little better than S-n-S, but you have to deal with the union stuff.
I don't know if it's still going on, but for a very long time there would be frequent picketers from the grocer's union on the sidewalk outside of the grocer's property at at least one of the locations. I saw it several times over several months (eventually I moved out of that area). I remember Tony having a bit of a dilemma when he was considering how he would respond if he was told to picket his good friend's new business. But it was short lived when he realized that there's no way he could disobey his union and that he would have to picket. Fuck that. That shit ain't for me.
The picket was small. Most union members had jobs - a picket like this isn't like a strike, where the workers at a business all leave their normal jobs to picket instead. Yeah, I hardly remember the last time I saw a picket. My dad is a retired Teamster. I remember him having to go picket maybe two or three times during my childhood. I think they took shifts.
I think your relative may be more concerned than he/she should be about a potential union picket. I hope so. After we were discussing his options with our union friends, and realizing there might just end up being a picket, we turned and looked to each other, shrugged our shoulders, and said: "Fuck 'em. Let'em picket." Then I go: "Ya know, you could just go anti-union if they show up" He didn't think that was a very good idea.
And don't forget - just as the freedom of speech allows the unions to picket him as a non-union-supporter, he also has the right to put someone outside his business, or place a sign on his own property, openly displaying the price differences between quotes from the union vs non-union shops. Potential customers may be less likely to care about the union's protestations when they can immediately see that their prices were so drastically higher. This is actually a good idea, thanks. I wonder if he kept the bids and they could be displayed. "Sorry we couldn't afford to pay 150% of the cost and caused the unions to picket us" We'll probably end up building it privately, and they probably won't even notice. I hope.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1108 by Rahvin, posted 10-29-2013 6:47 PM | | Rahvin has not replied |
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 1113 of 1485 (709793)
10-30-2013 10:21 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1107 by 1.61803
10-29-2013 6:33 PM
|
|
Nobody asked *you* for your opinion 
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1107 by 1.61803, posted 10-29-2013 6:33 PM | | 1.61803 has not replied |
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 1114 of 1485 (709794)
10-30-2013 10:32 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1110 by yenmor
10-29-2013 9:19 PM
|
|
I'm really trying to understand this from your perspective. But you're making it hard for me, considering every time you try to present "evidence" to support your dislike of Obama and Obamacare, you only managed to show your misunderstanding and, sometimes, downright ignorance of the new law. So what? Sometimes people base their opinions on misunderstandings and ignorance. Hopefully, they can learn and understand and modify their opinions.
The employer mandate won't go into effect until 2015. Your example is a perfect example of the boogie man fairy tale I was talking about before. Employers of low skilled workers love to do this. They always try to find a boogie man to blame for what they want to do. Low skilled workers usually are not as well educated and so they will believe anything their employers tell them. Not all employers are smart and vengeful. Has it occurred to you that maybe the employers are unaware of the change to when the employer mandate goes into effect? That they could still be talking to their employees about what kind of plans they're thinking about even though they're now unecessary?
In your particular case, the employer thought cutting down the hours of their employees will give the company the most benefits. But to keep the workers from making too much fuss about it, they blame it on Obamacare. But you're just making up stuff to make the employers out to be the boodie man. Empoyers blame Obama, you blame employers, and neither of you are dealing with facts.
There's no reason to lie to me about my own feelings, there's no way that could work.
And yet pretty much everything you said in this message (message 1078) is factually not accurate. Being wrong is not being hateful. You still lied to me about my own feelings. That's stupid.
Well, just the fact that you believed the nonsense about employers having to cut hours to conform with Obamacare is telling enough that you never really tried. Again, the employer mandate won't go into effect until 2015. I never said they have to cut hours. I met a friend after work and they told me the owner was talking about cutting hours to avoid having to provide insurance. That happened whether or not the employer was wrong in the first place. That affects my opinion. You asked me my opinion and I gave it to you and why. If the details aren't factual, then I'm wrong about stuff. Its no big deal. But that doesn't mean I don't have an opinion and that it wasn't affected by said things.
My offer still stands. You try your best to defend Obamacare. I will try my best to argue against it. Deal? I still decline.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1110 by yenmor, posted 10-29-2013 9:19 PM | | yenmor has replied |
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
All CS is doing is trying to spread anti-union propaganda and he has provided no reasonable detail at all. Please don't spread lies about me.
He mentions a price from the people that are supplying the building and prices from "the union". From Message 1078:
quote:
He shopped around for other prices, including some unions. The cost the unions bid was $66,000 - $77,000.
The "s" at the end of the word union, making it unions, means that it is plural and referring to multiple ones.
No prices mentioned from a non-union shop at all. quote:
The company that sold him the building said they would charge him $44,000 to construct it.
Now, we all know your reading comprehension is terrible and that you'll make up whatever you have to in order to vilify your opponent, but you should restrict your lies to things that can't be easily looked up.
|
Rahvin
Member Posts: 4040 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.1
|
The "s" at the end of the word union, making it unions, means that it is plural and referring to multiple ones. You're seeing opposition on this because "unions" do not actually give quotes and perform jobs. Businesses give quotes. Their employees may be members of a union. Many businesses in the same area and industry would all have employees who are members of the same union(s). Your relative did not receive any quotes for work from "unions." He/she received quotes for work from area businesses, which apparently were businesses whose employees are members of one or more labor unions. The businesses whose employees were union members gave quotes that were significantly higher than the price the manufacturer offered to construct the building; the manufacturer is presumably (but not necessarily, we don't know if you checked or not) non-union. It's a semantic difference. Your statement was inaccurate, but the meaning (I thought) was still clear.
The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
|
|
Message 1117 of 1485 (709813)
10-30-2013 11:47 AM
|
Reply to: Message 1116 by Rahvin
10-30-2013 11:45 AM
|
|
It's a semantic difference. Your statement was inaccurate, but the meaning (I thought) was still clear. And a whole lot shorter to type out too! I figure everyone knows what I mean and Theo is just being a dick about it (as usual).
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1116 by Rahvin, posted 10-30-2013 11:45 AM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1118 by Rahvin, posted 10-30-2013 11:57 AM | | New Cat's Eye has not replied |
|
Rahvin
Member Posts: 4040 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.1
(1)
| |
| |
| |
And a whole lot shorter to type out too! I figure everyone knows what I mean and Theo is just being a dick about it (as usual). Don't forget your audience. We're on a debate forum whose theme is evolution vs creationism; a very very very large number of creationist arguments come down to inappropriate usage of terms. We're primed to nitpick semantics, and we've (in general) often associated semantic inaccuracy with either ignorance of the topic or intentional dishonest twisting of terms to new meanings. And while there are exceptions (jar), as a crowd I wouldn't say we're generally focused on brevity. Though perhaps I'm just projecting on that one I wouldn't say Theo is "being a dick." I'd say "Theo is relying on practiced and effective debate technique in a situation where it's not really necessary."
The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9147 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
|
All CS is doing is trying to spread anti-union propaganda and he has provided no reasonable detail at all. Please don't spread lies about me.
They are not lies. It is a reasonable determination from what you have posted.
He mentions a price from the people that are supplying the building and prices from "the union". From Message 1078:
quote:
He shopped around for other prices, including some unions. The cost the unions bid was $66,000 - $77,000.
The "s" at the end of the word union, making it unions, means that it is plural and referring to multiple ones. Yous still don't get it. Unions do not price jobs. Contractors that use union and nonunion labor price jobs and do the work. You are still making it sound as if the UAW, Teamsters and IBEW submitted competing bids for the job. I can till you categorically that no Union bid on the job. You really should limit comments about things you do not understand.
No prices mentioned from a non-union shop at all. quote:
The company that sold him the building said they would charge him $44,000 to construct it.
Now, we all know your reading comprehension is terrible and that you'll make up whatever you have to in order to vilify your opponent, but you should restrict your lies to things that can't be easily looked up. No. You are the one being either disingenuous or incapable of basic comprehension or maybe quote mining. Because I mentioned that bid in the post you are replying too. Lets look at the full quote.
He mentions a price from the people that are supplying the building and prices from "the union". No prices mentioned from a non-union shop at all.
You see I mention the supplier that quoted $44,000. It is quite obvious that I am talking about non-union shops other than the supplier. Please don't make up alternatives of what I say.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9147 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
|
|
|
Message 1120 of 1485 (709854)
10-30-2013 1:38 PM
|
Reply to: Message 1116 by Rahvin
10-30-2013 11:45 AM
|
|
It's a semantic difference. Your statement was inaccurate, but the meaning (I thought) was still clear. I disagree totally. CS seems to truly think that unions gave the bid. This is patently and obviously wrong. Look at the post you are responding to
He mentions a price from the people that are supplying the building and prices from "the union". From Message 1078:
quote:
He shopped around for other prices, including some unions. The cost the unions bid was $66,000 - $77,000.
The "s" at the end of the word union, making it unions, means that it is plural and referring to multiple ones. He obviously still thinks that his cousin got bids from unions, not contractors. What unions gave the bid? UAW? Steelworkers? Teamsters? Why is there no mention of a bid from a nonunion contractor other than the original supplier? He is selectively making comments and presenting information in a style of propaganda. He obviousness hates unions and is going to give ridiculous credence to anything anti-union. In this way he is similar to the creationists we have here. I am not pro or anti union. There is a time and a place. My wife is in the process of fighting unionization in her workplace and I support it completely. But using misrepresentations and innuendo is not acceptable. You may think it is a semantic difference but that difference is a huge crux of his union bashing. Edited by Theodoric, : No reason given.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1116 by Rahvin, posted 10-30-2013 11:45 AM | | Rahvin has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 1126 by Rahvin, posted 10-30-2013 6:13 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
Yous still don't get it. Unions do not price jobs. Contractors that use union and nonunion labor price jobs and do the work. I knew that already when I wrote that the unions bid the job. And I'm still gonna say that the unions bid the job. And people are still gonna know what I'm talking about.
He obviousness hates unions and is going to give ridiculous credence to anything anti-union. Another lie. I'll ask you again: please stop spreading lies about me.
|
Rahvin
Member Posts: 4040 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.1
|
(2)
| |
| |
| |
quote:
I'd much rather see single-payer, something like Medicare for all. It'd be super simple - just lower the Medicare eligibility age to 0, and organize the new funding and staffing requirements with a few years buildup time to supplement the existing infrastructure. Make sure that Medicare is allowed to bargain for pricing with care providers and pharmaceutical companies. Allow private insurance in excess of what Medicare covers. Done deal - you could probably write a law for something like that in less than 20 pages, even in legalese - as I recall, Canada's version only took 14 pages. No tax penalties, no health exchanges.
That sounds way better than the ACA. Expensive. But better as far as outcomes actually go. I think this agreement of yours has been mainly overlooked, and I think it's important. It's easy to poke holes in the ACA. It's not particularly great legislation. The fact that (I and most others in this thread think) it's orders of magnitude better than what we had before is less a strong statement of support for the ACA, and more a strong condemnation of the shameful mess that historically has been American healthcare policy. But if we were to really try to come up with a more ideal solution, I think it's interesting that you, CS, an individual who is significantly more conservative than I am (judging by our past political thread participation anyway), would agree with super-liberal me that Medicare for all sounds "better as far as outcomes actually go." I think that's huge. For me, the best case scenario for the ACA is the realization that half-measures like the ACA aren't as effective as and are far more complicated than single-payer solutions like expanding Medicare for everyone.
The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum
|
Rahvin
Member Posts: 4040 Joined: 07-01-2005 Member Rating: 8.1
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
I knew that already when I wrote that the unions bid the job. And I'm still gonna say that the unions bid the job. And people are still gonna know what I'm talking about. You might get better results and avoid pointless tangents on semantics like this if you amended "unions" to "union shops." Just a suggestion. Very little additional typing - much less than you're using defending yourself, in fact.
The human understanding when it has once adopted an opinion (either as being the received opinion or as being agreeable to itself) draws all things else to support and agree with it. - Francis Bacon "There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old's life: The Lord of the Rings and Atlas Shrugged. One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs." - John Rogers A world that can be explained even with bad reasons is a familiar world. But, on the other hand, in a universe suddenly divested of illusions and lights, man feels an alien, a stranger. His exile is without remedy since he is deprived of the memory of a lost home or the hope of a promised land. This divorce between man and his life, the actor and his setting, is properly the feeling of absurdity. — Albert Camus "...the pious hope that by combining numerous little turds of variously tainted data, one can obtain a valuable result; but in fact, the outcome is merely a larger than average pile of shit." - Barash, David 1995... "Many that live deserve death. And some die that deserve life. Can you give it to them? Then be not too eager to deal out death in the name of justice, fearing for your own safety. Even the wise cannot see all ends." - Gandalf, J. R. R. Tolkien: The Lord Of the Rings
Nihil supernum
|
Theodoric
Member Posts: 9147 From: Northwest, WI, USA Joined: 08-15-2005 Member Rating: 3.3
|
And I'm still gonna say that the unions bid the job. And you will continue to be wrong, but if that is what you need to do to reinforce your dogmatic misrepresentations, so be it.
Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts "God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
|
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member
|
(1)
| |
| |
| |
And I'm still gonna say that the unions bid the job.
And you will continue to be wrong
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 1124 by Theodoric, posted 10-30-2013 5:19 PM | | Theodoric has not replied |
|
™ Version 4.2