Does Islam need a Reformation?

You know this? or you are just making a wild guess?

Yes. And, as you know, the problem is more than the Koran. it is also the hadith, such as this passage:"The Hour [Resurrection] will not take place until the Muslims fight the Jews, and kill them. And the Jews will hide behind the rock and tree, and the rock and tree will say: oh Muslim, oh servant of Allah, this is a Jew behind me, come and kill him!"

No it hasn't.Only in your dreams. I've seen old Qur'ans from past centuries on exhibition and the chapter numbers are always the same.

So in regards to this "theory":

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Sure looks bad for renowned scholar except that you are quoting from a modern edition of the Koran, and he was writing in the 1880s. The man does not deserve your offhanded dismissal. There is some other explanation but I don't suppose it would be easy to produce a 19th century Koran.

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Faith - unless you can support this statement in some way I take it you will retract it?

That is a nonsensical statement and has nothing to do with the issue. Child brides were common right up until the 20^th. century and so was polygamy. Jesus is seen by Christians as a divine individual however the Messiah was most definitely to be a war lord. Slavery also played a big part in Christianity and was supported theologically until the 19^th. by Christians as well as Muslems.Do not try to bring such nonsense into the discussion again.

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For sure there has been and continues to be significant differences between various branches of Christianity. But there is nothing in the NT that could be objectively read as equivalent to the War Verses.

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Since when has any believer read their religious holy book "objectively".It's not possible.

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As I've pointed out too, if Jesus, like mohammed, has led countless battles, had many wives, married a child with whom he had a baby when she was 9 years old, and owned slaves (some made into concubines), then Christianity would be a very different faith and theological differneces would be moe pronounced and have greater implications.,.

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Perhaps.Of course, Jesus' popes have done all of this and worse.

With respect to CAIR being an Islamist front:Inside Every Progressive Is A Totalitarian Screaming To Get Out - David Horowitz

That is exactly the point that nobody here has yet recognized. We're talking about the sacred texts of the respective religions, not how people behave, which may be anything given our fallen nature. Christianity may not have been lived in a Christian fashion by many, but also the New Testament does not support their unChristian behavior.The Koran, however, does support both peaceable conversion and violent conversion, as well as simply slaying the "infidel," so that jihadists are being true to the religion. Yes, that's a good point too.You might be interested in reading the chapter about Islam at the link I provided somewhere back there, Steve. Although I quoted only the parts for the sake of this discussion that demonstrate the violence in the spreading of Islam, it also gives a sympathetic portrait of Mohammed in my opinion. He was a man of his culture. Marrying a very young girl was not a violation in his culture, nor was owning slaves or polygamy. I think we mustn't judge him too harshly.What is of concern to us about Islam is the fundamental DOCTRINAL elements within it -- not the usual wars and conflicts between people that are unfortunately "normal" to the human race, but OFFICIAL DOCTRINE -- which threaten the peace and stability of the world with which it comes in contact. I understand that the average Muslim gets defensive about this subject, but all that does is bury the problem and make it all the more dangerous.Continuing to attack Christianity in this context is nothing but a smokescreen.

I agree with both your points, but don't see them as contradicting mine.

I don't mean to judge Mohammed badly. He was, as you say, a man of his times. But as you also say, he was the seminal figure of his faith, and is, therefore, the role model. Jesus was also, to non Christians, a man of his times. And, regardless of whether he was G-d or not, he elected to live contrary to his times with respect to those matters.

The issue is not subjugation. The issue is conversion by the sword being supported by the verses you originally quoted. My rebuttal is that given the context those verses do not encourage 'convert or die' but rather are descriptions of acceptable defensive agression.Please respond to this specific point or withdrawl your claim. If you continue to avoid the issue I will be asking for moderator intervention.Thank you.

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Looking back I could not find a source that you listed nor the quotation from that source that shows jihad means physical struggle by default. If it was missed I appologize. If you could repeat the quote and the source that would be helpful.Also, please address my Hawaiian analogy. Do you not agree that proper definition of words should be taken from those who use the words? Does "cool" in popular culture mean "something good" or MUST it mean "the quality of being of less temerature than a moderate temperature"? If you were writing about slang in popular culture which definition would you use? Would you be intellectually honest by using the other definition?Please respond to specific points raised in rebuttal.Thank You.

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Actually, I think the opposite. I believe Faith, unlike CandadianSteve, is sincere in her beliefs and sincerely believes that she has something important to say. Whatever her faults, I think Faith is more deserving of respect.

I can retract my guess about what happened as I don't know the explanation, but the fact is that exactly what Schaff was referring to IS in the Koran although it is not NOW in the last chapter, mostly chapter 9: This message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 10:39 AMThis message has been edited by Faith, 07-28-2005 10:47 AM

I agree, Jesus gave us an amazing antidote to the evils of this world.I have to leave for a while. I am actually praying for you in dealing with this subject, Steve, like it or not, to be clear and cogent and unruffled -- you are all three anyway but one can always use help, right? I've never seen a topic here so aggressively and belligerently monitored as this one.Carry on.