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Author Topic:   Early DNA replication systems
jjburklo
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 14 (188152)
02-24-2005 1:37 PM


I was wondering what the current theories are as to early DNA replication systems. It seems that life could never have been passed on if there was never a precursor to the Polymerases we see today. In fact, would there not have had to be a replication system at the time of the first cell being formed? I've done some research, however, the only thing I can find on polymerases are descriptions of function, and nothing touching on the evolutionary precursors to it.

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by Loudmouth, posted 02-24-2005 5:22 PM jjburklo has replied

  
AdminNosy
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Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 2 of 14 (188171)
02-24-2005 2:59 PM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 3 of 14 (188210)
02-24-2005 5:22 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by jjburklo
02-24-2005 1:37 PM


quote:
I was wondering what the current theories are as to early DNA replication systems. It seems that life could never have been passed on if there was never a precursor to the Polymerases we see today. In fact, would there not have had to be a replication system at the time of the first cell being formed? I've done some research, however, the only thing I can find on polymerases are descriptions of function, and nothing touching on the evolutionary precursors to it.
The answer is that DNA may not have been the first genetic material. RNA can carry both genetic information and carry out chemical reactions. The RNA World Hypothesis states that the first replicators may have been short stretches of RNA that carried out chemical reactions that resulted in self replication. This may have required RNA to build polypeptides, copy itself, or make new and different RNA molecules.
For an overview I would check out this site. And an excerpt from that site:
Today, research in the RNA world is a medium-sized industry. Scientists in this field are able to demonstrate that random sequences of RNA sometimes exhibit useful properties. For example, in 1995, a group of researchers reported "Structurally Complex and Highly Active RNA Ligases Derived from Random RNA Sequences" (4). (Ligases are enzymes that splice together other molecules such as DNA or RNA.) The results are interestingthey suggest that randomness can produce functionality. The authors interpret the results to mean that "the number of distinct complex functional RNA structures is very large indeed."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by jjburklo, posted 02-24-2005 1:37 PM jjburklo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 4 by jjburklo, posted 02-25-2005 6:32 PM Loudmouth has replied

  
jjburklo
Inactive Member


Message 4 of 14 (188573)
02-25-2005 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by Loudmouth
02-24-2005 5:22 PM


Thanks Loud for that link. In any case there would have had to be a precursor to the current Polymerases that DNA uses today. Are there any theories as to those precursors?
I also noticed on that page, however, that the RNA world theory is not being widely accepted.
quote:
At the Salk Institute for Biological Studies, in 1994, Leslie Orgel observes, "Because synthesizing nucleotides and achieving replication of RNA under plausible prebiotic conditions have proved so challenging, chemists are increasingly considering the possibility that RNA was not the first self replicating molecule..."
The site did go on to give some other interesting theories as to the origin of information, none which seemed to hold its weight. It seems that this is serving to be an extremely huge enigma for evolutionists. I also found several other quotes extremely interesting
quote:
To go from a bacterium to people is less of a step than to go from a mixture of amino acids to a bacterium Lynn Margulis
quote:
There is no evidence in life today of anything that produces huge quantities of new, random strings of nucleotides or amino acids, some of which are advantageous. But if precellular life did that, it would need lots of time to create any useful genes or proteins. How long would it need? After making some helpful assumptions we can get the ratio of actual, useful proteins to all possible random proteins up to something like one in 10^500 (ten to the 500th power). So it would take, barring incredible luck, something like 10^500 trials to probably find one
This sums up, to a large extent, my view on the existence of a God. The chance of random, natural, processes is extremely unlikely. While this does not completely rule out evolution, I think this is convincing evidence that there had to be a Creator to have started it all.
This message has been edited by jjburklo, 02-25-2005 18:42 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 3 by Loudmouth, posted 02-24-2005 5:22 PM Loudmouth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by pink sasquatch, posted 02-25-2005 10:44 PM jjburklo has replied
 Message 8 by Loudmouth, posted 02-28-2005 10:56 AM jjburklo has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6041 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 5 of 14 (188617)
02-25-2005 10:44 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by jjburklo
02-25-2005 6:32 PM


RNA-world theory and the probability of God
It seems that this is serving to be an extremely huge enigma for evolutionists.
An enigma for abiogenesists to figure out. Evolution only acts on existing life, and the theory of evolution says nothing at all about the origin of life.
in 1994, Leslie Orgel observes, "Because synthesizing nucleotides and achieving replication of RNA under plausible prebiotic conditions have proved so challenging,
This was over ten years ago, an enormous amount of RNA-enzyme and RNA-replicator work has been done in that time. As part of that work, it has been discovered that short RNAs are capable of synthesizing nucleotides , and that short RNAs are capable of efficiently and accurately catalyzing RNA replication - thus the two problems Orgel states as "so challenging" have since been solved. In fact the first paper (I think) describing self-replicating RNAs came out just two years after Orgel's comment.
Scientists produced these enzymatic RNAs NOT by designing them, but by selecting for enzymatic activity from a few million randomly and chemically assembled RNAs. Absolutely no DNA or protein is required for any of this to occur.
There is no evidence in life today of anything that produces huge quantities of new, random strings of nucleotides or amino acids, some of which are advantageous.
The conditions of primitive Earth were quite unlike "life today", so looking for evidence of abiogenesis based on current conditions is a fallacy.
Also, "huge quantities" is a bit misleading. Only a single (or few) self-replicating RNAs would need to arise to allow evolution to begin (mutation and selection could act upon the replicator). Efficient replicators as described above are less than thirty bases long, if I remember correctly, so there is no "impossible" probability associated with it arising. Also, the smallest RNAs with enzymatic activity are only seven bases long.
After making some helpful assumptions we can get the ratio of actual, useful proteins to all possible random proteins up to something like one in 10^500 (ten to the 500th power).
Those "helpful assumptions" are only helpful if one is trying to boost the improbability of abiogenesis "up to" something seemingly impossible; see - Lies, Damned Lies, Statistics, and Probability of Abiogenesis Calculations. Does your source provide the calculations so that we might check them, and their underlying "helpful assumptions"?
Also, it is unlikely that life began with protein, yet those arguing against a naturalistic origin of life use protein "occurring" for calculations since it gives much lower probabilities of randomly happening (that are flawed in any case).
More informed models of early RNA evolution show the evolution of essential ribozymes to be quite plausible.
Ribozymes are an intricate part of cellular biology, they are still essential for human life. The same small RNAs required for vertebrate life are found conserved in the kingdom Archea, suggesting a quite "primordial" evolutionary origin.
Hopefully I've showed that the gaps you've described in the RNA-world hypothesis have been filled. (To some extent "RNA"-world is a bit misleading - it was likely a "nucleotide"-world made up of RNA, RNA-analogs, and/or DNA; and at some later point protein.)
However, I realize that the point of the thread is to get at the origins of DNA polymerase. RNA likely begat DNA, which is a simple chemical difference resulting in a great improvement in stability. Initial DNA may not have coded for protein, but may itself been active in catalysis, as part of chimeric DNA-RNA-zymes, or it may have been an inert byproduct of RNA transcriptase until ribosomal RNA appeared. Once ribosomes were in the picture, DNA-coded protein became a possibility, and thus the evolution of a DNA polymerase.
A major point to realize is that chemical abiogenesis was a historical event that happened under unknown conditions. Abiogenesis research will never be able to "prove" exactly how it happened; but it can demonstrate ways it could have occurred.
The chance of random, natural, processes is extremely unlikely. While this does not completely rule out evolution, I think this is convincing evidence that there had to be a Creator to have started it all.
The "unlikelihood" of the process cannot be known, since the conditions of abiogenesis are unknown - for all you or I know, chemical conditions may have been absolutely perfect, essentially guaranteeing the arisal of life.
It seems to me that you see two possibilities for the origins of life - a Creator or a Chemical Reaction. Personally, I see the catalysis of nucleotide polymers on a clay substrate under varying temperature conditions to be much more probable than an eternally-existing, omnipotent, deceitful intelligence. A lack of evidence for the chemical origins is not evidence for a Creator as you imply. Thus; we have some evidence for chemical origins, while we have no evidence for the other option you present.
References:
Ekland EH, Bartel DP. 1996 RNA-catalysed RNA polymerization using nucleoside triphosphates. Nature. Jul 25;382(6589):373-6.
Chapple KE, Bartel DP, Unrau PJ. 2003 Combinatorial minimization and secondary structure determination of a nucleotide synthase ribozyme. RNA. Oct;9(10):1208-20.
Johnston WK, Unrau PJ, Lawrence MS, Glasner ME, Bartel DP. 2001 RNA-catalyzed RNA polymerization: accurate and general RNA-templated primer extension. Science. May 18;292(5520):1319-25.
McGinness KE, Wright MC, Joyce GF. 2002 Continuous in vitro evolution of a ribozyme that catalyzes three successive nucleotidyl addition reactions. Chem Biol. May;9(5):585-96.
Szabo P, Scheuring I, Czaran T, Szathmary E. Nature. 2002 In silico simulations reveal that replicators with limited dispersal evolve towards higher efficiency and fidelity. Nov 21;420(6913):340-3.
Leon PE. 1998 Inhibition of ribozymes by deoxyribonucleotides and the origin of DNA.J Mol Evol. Aug;47(2):122-6.
Frimerman A, Welch PJ, Jin X, Eigler N, Yei S, Forrester J, Honda H, Makkar R, Barber J, Litvack F. 1999 Chimeric DNA-RNA hammerhead ribozyme to proliferating cell nuclear antigen reduces stent-induced stenosis in a porcine coronary model. Circulation. Feb 9;99(5):697-703.
Terns MP, Terns RM. 2002 Small nucleolar RNAs: versatile trans-acting molecules of ancient evolutionary origin. Gene Expr. 10(1-2):17-39.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jjburklo, posted 02-25-2005 6:32 PM jjburklo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 6 by jjburklo, posted 02-26-2005 7:10 PM pink sasquatch has replied
 Message 9 by LDSdude, posted 02-28-2005 6:26 PM pink sasquatch has replied
 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-28-2005 7:21 PM pink sasquatch has replied

  
jjburklo
Inactive Member


Message 6 of 14 (188788)
02-26-2005 7:10 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by pink sasquatch
02-25-2005 10:44 PM


Re: RNA-world theory and the probability of God
Good post Sasquatch. I'll be looking into the sources you presented. Right now, its a bit difficult however. All my classes are compounding and I'm swamped. And this was not my source. This was a source given by Loud.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by pink sasquatch, posted 02-25-2005 10:44 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 7 by pink sasquatch, posted 02-27-2005 1:29 PM jjburklo has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6041 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 7 of 14 (188923)
02-27-2005 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 6 by jjburklo
02-26-2005 7:10 PM


Re: RNA-world theory and the probability of God
Thanks, and no problem.
Just to reiterate, though - in none of those sources will you find rock solid evidence of how abiogenesis occurred, or how the "RNA world" (if it ever existed) specifically gave rise to the DNA/protein world.
The overall point of abiogenesis research, in my opinion, is to show how things could have proceeded during the arisal of life. If reasonable naturalistic explanations are available, then there is no reason to make an unreasonable jump to a supernatural explanation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 6 by jjburklo, posted 02-26-2005 7:10 PM jjburklo has not replied

  
Loudmouth
Inactive Member


Message 8 of 14 (189185)
02-28-2005 10:56 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by jjburklo
02-25-2005 6:32 PM


quote:
The site did go on to give some other interesting theories as to the origin of information, none which seemed to hold its weight.
All of the information is contained in the oxygens, hydrogens, nitrogens, and phosphorous that makes up RNA. For example, oxygen and hydrogen carry information in their valence electrons. This information allows the reproducible creation of H2O when oxygen and hydrogen are combusted. It is this same type of information that allows reliable and reproducible chemical reactions that resulted in life.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by jjburklo, posted 02-25-2005 6:32 PM jjburklo has not replied

  
LDSdude
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 14 (189298)
02-28-2005 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by pink sasquatch
02-25-2005 10:44 PM


God....decietful?
I'm just sort of tracking this forum. I might join in after a little more research on my part, but I just saw this and said, "huh?"
(quote)eternally-existing, omnipotent, deceitful intelligence.(/quote)
So I'm just wondering where that little "deceitful" comment came from.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by pink sasquatch, posted 02-25-2005 10:44 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 12 by pink sasquatch, posted 02-28-2005 8:11 PM LDSdude has not replied

  
New Cat's Eye
Inactive Member


Message 10 of 14 (189302)
02-28-2005 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by pink sasquatch
02-25-2005 10:44 PM


not about RNA
Evolution only acts on existing life, and the theory of evolution says nothing at all about the origin of life.
I know, I know, but, then why are creationism and evolution even debated together, if one deals with how life originated (creationism) and the other one says nothing at all about the origin of life (evolution) then how has this debate become so great. The creationists could all accept evolution and the evolutionists could all accept creation. This doesn't weem to work out though.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 5 by pink sasquatch, posted 02-25-2005 10:44 PM pink sasquatch has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 11 by pink sasquatch, posted 02-28-2005 8:05 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6041 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 11 of 14 (189313)
02-28-2005 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by New Cat's Eye
02-28-2005 7:21 PM


Re: not about RNA
if one deals with how life originated (creationism) and the other one says nothing at all about the origin of life (evolution) then how has this debate become so great.
I'd say because often the most rabid anti-evolutionists don't understand the theory of evolution, and so they assume it does speak to origins.
I've also seen people describe Big Bang theory as part of the theory of evolution; or state that the theory of evolution claims to disprove the existence of God - both of which are absurdities.
The creationists could all accept evolution and the evolutionists could all accept creation. This doesn't weem to work out though.
But literal or YEC creationists aren't just concerned with origins, they are also concerned with the age of the Earth, and that God created life as kinds, not as something that would evolve into kinds.
Creationists mix up all of these other issues with evolution. Don't blame the evolutionists for that...
(And I'm realizing we're totally off-topic now...)

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 Message 10 by New Cat's Eye, posted 02-28-2005 7:21 PM New Cat's Eye has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 13 by JonF, posted 02-28-2005 8:57 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
pink sasquatch
Member (Idle past 6041 days)
Posts: 1567
Joined: 06-10-2004


Message 12 of 14 (189315)
02-28-2005 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by LDSdude
02-28-2005 6:26 PM


Re: God....decietful?
There is zero evidence for the eternal omnipotent intelligence, so it is deceitful in that it has erased all evidence of its hand in the design process, and in fact has created all evidence to point away from a conclusion of design. Not to mention it is currently "hiding" itself from us... this is a subject for another thread.
Also, I wasn't talking about "God", though I believe there are other threads here pointing out examples of His use of deceit in the Bible - it is off-topic here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 9 by LDSdude, posted 02-28-2005 6:26 PM LDSdude has not replied

  
JonF
Member (Idle past 186 days)
Posts: 6174
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 13 of 14 (189331)
02-28-2005 8:57 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by pink sasquatch
02-28-2005 8:05 PM


Re: not about RNA
if one deals with how life originated (creationism) and the other one says nothing at all about the origin of life (evolution) then how has this debate become so great.
I'd say because often the most rabid anti-evolutionists don't understand the theory of evolution, and so they assume it does speak to origins.
But in the creationist's worldview the question of "how did life come to be as it is today?" and the question of "how did life come into existence?" and the question of "how did the Universe get to be as it is now?" and a whole host of other questions are one and the same, with ipso facto the same answer. I don't find it surprising that they have extreme difficulty understanding that scientists see those as incredibly different questions, and see such great differences that they think it's impossible to conflate their study. The incredible breadth of science requires specialization.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by pink sasquatch, posted 02-28-2005 8:05 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1423 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 14 of 14 (245348)
09-20-2005 8:29 PM


Possible Forum for OOL questions
bump for Enuf_Alredy from
EvC Forum: Just a few questions...
read up to hear to see if your questions are {partly} answered.
then ask again.
This message has been edited by RAZD, 09*20*2005 08:31 PM

we are limited in our ability to understand
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