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Author Topic:   Atheist Changes Mind
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 1 of 34 (167091)
12-10-2004 11:55 PM


http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,141061,00.html
Here was a newsworthy event. Any comments?
NEW YORK A British philosophy professor who has been a leading champion of atheism for more than a half-century has changed his mind. He now believes in God more or less based on scientific evidence, and says so on a video released Thursday.
At age 81, after decades of insisting belief is a mistake, Antony Flew has concluded that some sort of intelligence or first cause must have created the universe. A super-intelligence is the only good explanation for the origin of life and the complexity of nature, Flew said in a telephone interview from England.
This ranks up there with "Man bites Dog."
Lost another one to DITECH!
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-10-2004 11:56 PM

Replies to this message:
 Message 3 by crashfrog, posted 12-11-2004 1:19 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 4 by NosyNed, posted 12-11-2004 1:29 AM Phat has replied
 Message 15 by Parasomnium, posted 12-13-2004 2:40 AM Phat has not replied

  
AdminJar
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 34 (167110)
12-11-2004 1:14 AM


Thread moved here from the Proposed New Topics forum.

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1467 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 3 of 34 (167113)
12-11-2004 1:19 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-10-2004 11:55 PM


Huh. No surprise to see that he's over 80. Do you think maybe he's hedging his bets?

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 4 of 34 (167117)
12-11-2004 1:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-10-2004 11:55 PM


Hard to tell
What he thinks is interesting but why he thinks that is more interesting.
There isn't enough in the article to get a real understanding of it. He seems to be coming from a position of incredulity. That is understandable to some degree but hardly "scientific evidence". He is after all a philosopher and not deeply knowledgable in the various fields I would presume.
Too little to go on really. There is some idea of what he thinks but not really anything on why.

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Replies to this message:
 Message 5 by Phat, posted 12-11-2004 10:43 AM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 6 by RAZD, posted 12-11-2004 11:04 AM NosyNed has not replied
 Message 7 by jjburklo, posted 12-11-2004 12:42 PM NosyNed has replied
 Message 18 by Dr Jack, posted 12-13-2004 5:51 AM NosyNed has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 5 of 34 (167152)
12-11-2004 10:43 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
12-11-2004 1:29 AM


Re: Hard to tell
Lemme ask you this, then: Do you personally doubt that a philosophical change from atheism to theism is EVER logical?
This message has been edited by Phatboy, 12-11-2004 02:21 PM

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RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


Message 6 of 34 (167157)
12-11-2004 11:04 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
12-11-2004 1:29 AM


Re: Hard to tell
heh
that was my reaction too.

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jjburklo
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 34 (167171)
12-11-2004 12:42 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by NosyNed
12-11-2004 1:29 AM


Re: Hard to tell
quote:
What he thinks is interesting but why he thinks that is more interesting.
There isn't enough in the article to get a real understanding of it. He seems to be coming from a position of incredulity. That is understandable to some degree but hardly "scientific evidence". He is after all a philosopher and not deeply knowledgable in the various fields I would presume.
Too little to go on really. There is some idea of what he thinks but not really anything on why.
I agree that he does not give enough detail as to why, but it is very interesting that he's saying that it was scientific evidence that lead him that way. While yes he's a philosopher that does not at all negate his knowledge of the subject. After all you're in software development. But I still consider you relatively knowledgeable of biological science. So that argument is both unnecessary and useless.
And this isn't some random atheist turned theist. This was one of the leading proponents of philosophical atheism. There had to have been some credible and highly convincable evidence. Yes he's up in age, but I don't believe he would randomly nor easily change his mind on the subject. I would love to know what exact evidence he points to, as would we all.
There is another article, in fact an interview of Flew by Dr. Habermass of Liberty University. That is where I first found about this, and is extremely thorough. It's an excellent article and you get a really good taste for what he actually believes, although the exact why is still looming in many instances. Atheist turned theist

This message is a reply to:
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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 8 of 34 (167185)
12-11-2004 1:51 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by jjburklo
12-11-2004 12:42 PM


Not so hard to tell
But hardly enough detail yet.
quote:
However, I think the argument to Intelligent Design is enormously stronger than it was when I first met it.
(from the interview -- thanks for that by the way)
There are two possibilities here: one is that he knows of something that hasn't been brought up here or other places I have read, the second is that he doesn't.
If the latter then his opinion is based on what, in my opinion, is junk. If the former I would wonder why we haven't seen that additional evidence and reasoning.
It might be a good idea to point out to most of the believers here that the "god" he is professing a belief in isn't the God that many here believe in.
This message has been edited by NosyNed, 12-11-2004 01:51 PM

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sidelined
Member (Idle past 5908 days)
Posts: 3435
From: Edmonton Alberta Canada
Joined: 08-30-2003


Message 9 of 34 (167191)
12-11-2004 1:59 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by NosyNed
12-11-2004 1:51 PM


Re: Not so hard to tell
Nosyned
I agree. It would seem that he runs along the god concept of Spinoza and Einstein. It certainly is a far cry from the God of comfort of the Christian faith.
I do think that evidence will not be forthcoming because I feel that were there any such propositions would have made the headlines and not the man stating them.

A centipede was happy quite, until a toad in fun
Said, "Pray, which leg comes after which?'
This raised his doubts to such a pitch
He fell distracted in the ditch
Not knowing how to run.

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 10 of 34 (167220)
12-11-2004 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 8 by NosyNed
12-11-2004 1:51 PM


Re: Not so hard to tell
If the latter then his opinion is based on what, in my opinion, is junk.
My guess is junk.
Did you see what he said about Islam?
But some things I am completely confident about. I would never regard Islam with anything but horror and fear because it is fundamentally committed to conquering the world for Islam. It was because the whole of Palestine was part of the land of Islam that Muslim Arab armies moved in to try to destroy Israel at birth, and why the struggle for the return of the still surviving refugees and their numerous descendents continue to this day.
and
Well, one thing I’ll say in this comparison is that, for goodness sake, Jesus is an enormously attractive charismatic figure, which the Prophet of Islam most emphatically is not.
Both are incredibly ignorant and bigoted comments. If he accepted the above from sources as "evidence" of what Islam is like, I am less than encouraged what he accepted on a subject with less hard facts like theism.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 11 of 34 (167221)
12-11-2004 4:05 PM
Reply to: Message 10 by Silent H
12-11-2004 3:49 PM


Bigoted
Both are incredibly ignorant and bigoted comments.
LOL, aren't we glad he's gone over to the "other side"? I'm glad I don't have to have his attitude in any way associated with my views.

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PerfectDeath
Inactive Member


Message 12 of 34 (167468)
12-12-2004 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by NosyNed
12-11-2004 4:05 PM


Re: Bigoted
Ahmen to that.
but in my opinion atheists belive in science and what it can prove so no atheist should have the same belifes... and IF something comes along that proves your belifes wrong then you cange your belifes.
i am not surprised when and atheist changes belifes... I DO IT ALL THE TIME ^_^
edited to fix spelling errors
This message has been edited by PerfectDeath, 12-12-2004 06:28 PM

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NosyNed
Member
Posts: 8996
From: Canada
Joined: 04-04-2003


Message 13 of 34 (167490)
12-12-2004 7:06 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PerfectDeath
12-12-2004 6:26 PM


Spelling errors
edited to fix spelling errors
I'm sorry about this, but I do think you'd do well to work on your spelling. You may have fixed some but not all.
Do you have access to a word processor with spell check? Try entering your posts into that and then copying to here. For your own benefit you need to work on that.
(mind you it is more of a do-as-I-say thing )

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Replies to this message:
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coffee_addict
Member (Idle past 477 days)
Posts: 3645
From: Indianapolis, IN
Joined: 03-29-2004


Message 14 of 34 (167504)
12-12-2004 7:29 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by PerfectDeath
12-12-2004 6:26 PM


Re: Bigoted
PerfectDeath writes:
but in my opinion atheists belive in science and what it can prove so no atheist should have the same belifes
I beg to differ. I personally know a lot of atheists that have no interest in science. They are atheists because to them it is absurd to believe in immaterial pink unicorns.
and IF something comes along that proves your belifes wrong then you cange your belifes.
I'm really not sure whether you meant this in a positive or negative way. If you meant it in the negative way, can you tell me why it would be bad to change your belief, especially when evidence is overwhelmingly against your old belief?
Would you say that we should still believe that the Earth is flat, or that the sun orbits the Earth?
edited to fix spelling errors
Good job, now just do it 3 more times

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Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 15 of 34 (167597)
12-13-2004 2:40 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Phat
12-10-2004 11:55 PM


Here's an update. It seems someone has been a bit hasty with conclusions.

"It's amazing what you can learn from DNA." - Desdamona.

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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