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Author Topic:   Reasons why the NeoCons aren't real Republicans
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 16 of 301 (217508)
06-16-2005 11:20 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by Silent H
06-16-2005 2:24 PM


I agree, I had to vote for Kerry. By comparison to Bush I couldn't even call it choosing the lesser of two evils. It was choosing someone with an accomplished track record and someone with a rather massive failed record.
yeah, i'm not sure how the good war record of a decorated veteren became a bad war record, which was then beaten by the nonexistant war record of a draft dodger.
i mean, don't get me wrong, i'm all for draft dodging. but jesus. that's some spin powers on the right.
This message has been edited by arachnophilia, 06-16-2005 11:20 PM

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 11:45 PM arachnophilia has replied

dsv
Member (Idle past 4723 days)
Posts: 220
From: Secret Underground Hideout
Joined: 08-17-2004


Message 17 of 301 (217519)
06-16-2005 11:45 PM
Reply to: Message 16 by arachnophilia
06-16-2005 11:20 PM


When Jesus himself phones in his endorsement, it's all over.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by arachnophilia, posted 06-16-2005 11:20 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 18 by arachnophilia, posted 06-17-2005 12:39 AM dsv has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1343 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 18 of 301 (217525)
06-17-2005 12:39 AM
Reply to: Message 17 by dsv
06-16-2005 11:45 PM


"my name is jesus h. christ, and i endorse this advertisement."

אָרַח

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by dsv, posted 06-16-2005 11:45 PM dsv has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 19 of 301 (218007)
06-19-2005 10:05 AM


Are all the conservatives here afraid to criticize their team?
Seriously, are Monk, Tal, and Paisano all 100% supportive of the neocons and everything they do?
I would have thought that the Republicans on this board would LOVE a thread where they get a chance to list the ways their party has been corrupted by the decidedly UN-conservative policies of the neocons.
It's just more evidence of that team mentality I keep talking about.

Replies to this message:
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paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 20 of 301 (218020)
06-19-2005 12:29 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by nator
06-19-2005 10:05 AM


Re: Are all the conservatives here afraid to criticize their team?
It's just more evidence of that team mentality I keep talking about.
Hardly. Its simply evidence that we have the courtesy to not disturb
your little left-leaning commiseration echo chamber. I shall not begrudge you this amusing yet harmless form of entertainment.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by nator, posted 06-19-2005 10:05 AM nator has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Silent H, posted 06-19-2005 2:10 PM paisano has replied
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2005 2:51 PM paisano has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 21 of 301 (218053)
06-19-2005 2:10 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by paisano
06-19-2005 12:29 PM


Re: Are all the conservatives here afraid to criticize their team?
I honestly want to hear your opinion on this. Especially nice to see, would be your thoughts on the neocon documentary.
Don't you feel or recognize there is a difference in core values and practices between the neocons presently in charge, and traditional republican values?
One could look at all of the comments here and pass them off as liberals ripping into Reps, which they'd do anyway. But I don't think that's true for everyone. I am certainly not a Dem and was shocked by the neocon betrayal of conservative traits right when they were needed most (IMO).
If Bush had not violated his own 2000 platform, or had been ousted as a candidate by traditional Reps, I might have even voted Rep in 2004. Indeed Reps could get my vote in 2008 if they manage to reject neocon candidates or supporters.
Avoiding this topic doesn't actually settle the question raised here, but not answering certainly keeps it up in the air as a viable criticism.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 22 of 301 (218056)
06-19-2005 2:51 PM
Reply to: Message 20 by paisano
06-19-2005 12:29 PM


Its simply evidence that we have the courtesy to not disturb
your little left-leaning commiseration echo chamber.
Haven't you noticed how rarely Schraf, Holmes, and I - easily the most prominently vocal leftists here, though I mean no disrespect to anybody I haven't mentioned - agree?
We're always arguing about what Democratic politicans should do. Right now, for example, Holmes thinks that Dean is a liability; I think that he should keep on as he's been doing. I've supported some Republican policies in the past; Schraf would probably stab me with a meat cleaver if she found out I voted for Bush in 2000. (oops.)
On the other hand, you and Monk and Tal invariably chime in with the same "you Democrats are Bush-haters; get over the election; Bush has a huge mandate and it's time for you to shut it" nonsense. You three are indistinguishable. It's pretty clear where the echo chamber is around here; it's also pretty clear that not a one of you has the balls to try to defend your own party without the other two as backup.
This message has been edited by crashfrog, 06-19-2005 02:51 PM

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 23 of 301 (218064)
06-19-2005 3:27 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
06-19-2005 2:51 PM


Holmes thinks that Dean is a liability
I just want to make clear that that is not my exact stance. I happen to like Dean and don't really care if he continues on as he has.
All I have acknowledged is that hyperbole is not likely to attract people to any cause, unless they are already commited to that cause. Thus Dean's hyperbolic commentary will not attract many if any Reps, may turn off most of them, and could turn off some sensitive Dems.
I don't think that is such a major disadvantage as any person that the Dems put in front will not appeal to Reps. It has the added nicety of having a guy who is usually right, even if a bit caustic to some.
Frankly I think more was made out of that Yeeehaa! than should have been. Dean was just being excited an cheerleading a crowd. Only seen as a soundbyte played wildly out of context does it look like someone acting demented. I like his excitement and it does speak to me.
Hypothetically if the Dems ran Dean in 2008, and for some reason Bush was running... I'd vote for Dean more happily than I did for kerry in 2004. It is possible however that the Reps could field a candidate I like better than Dean. That would take a firm rejection of the neocons and religious agendas.
Thus, our difference is that you think his excitement and hyperbolic commentary will end up being beneficial. I think it will be neutral to slightly less helpful, though not so great as to be an actual liability. I think he would be best served with keeping his enthusiasm but losing the black-white commentary.
Schraf would probably stab me with a meat cleaver if she found out I voted for Bush in 2000.
Don't worry, I understand. If Bush had stuck to his actual platform of 2000, it is unlikely we'd be having as many debates on how lousy Bush is. He was a liar to some degree on the campaign trail, and worse still gave up every other principle in cowardice after 9/11.
I could not in good conscience vote for Gore in 2000, even if I realize now he might have been better. Of course I didn't vote for Bush... heheheh.
But that's what gets me, everyone who believed in and so voted for the 2000 Bush should not have voted for the 2004 Bush, and I want that paradox explained to me by those who did so.
Your anger is justified, their support is an enigma.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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paisano
Member (Idle past 6422 days)
Posts: 459
From: USA
Joined: 05-07-2004


Message 24 of 301 (218079)
06-19-2005 4:17 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by Silent H
06-19-2005 2:10 PM


Re: Are all the conservatives here afraid to criticize their team?
Don't you feel or recognize there is a difference in core values and practices between the neocons presently in charge, and traditional republican values?
To some degree. So what ? I'd prefer a McCain type platform, but I certainly have zero interest in the Democrats.
No matter my dissatisfaction with the neocons, I'm not going to vote for Dean, which is the only outcome Schraf would be happy with.
It's rather entertaining to watch a bunch of Democrats discuss why the neocons aren't real Republicans. Would Schraf vote for a Goldwater-type candidate? I doubt it. So what is the point of this thread, other than mutual commiseration over the neocons?

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 Message 21 by Silent H, posted 06-19-2005 2:10 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2005 4:53 PM paisano has not replied
 Message 27 by nator, posted 06-19-2005 7:56 PM paisano has not replied
 Message 28 by nator, posted 06-19-2005 8:11 PM paisano has not replied
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 25 of 301 (218090)
06-19-2005 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by paisano
06-19-2005 4:17 PM


No matter my dissatisfaction with the neocons, I'm not going to vote for Dean
This is what we're talking about, how your side doesn't take this discussion seriously. Dean's not running in 08. As DNC chair there's no possibility that he could mount a campaign.
So why would you even mention voting for Dean? Why would you expect Schraf to expect you to do something that would be impossible for you to do?

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 Message 24 by paisano, posted 06-19-2005 4:17 PM paisano has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 26 of 301 (218119)
06-19-2005 7:53 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by crashfrog
06-19-2005 2:51 PM


quote:
Schraf would probably stab me with a meat cleaver if she found out I voted for Bush in 2000. (oops.)
LOL!
I guess I could forgive you, you were young.
Seriously, I was very lukewarm on Gore and wished there was a better Democratic candidate, but even back then Bush made my skin crawl.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by crashfrog, posted 06-19-2005 2:51 PM crashfrog has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 27 of 301 (218120)
06-19-2005 7:56 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by paisano
06-19-2005 4:17 PM


Re: Are all the conservatives here afraid to criticize their team?
Don't you feel or recognize there is a difference in core values and practices between the neocons presently in charge, and traditional republican values?
quote:
To some degree. So what ?
Please elaborate.
Go on.
Criticizing your own party in public is OK.
I promise that nothing bad will happen.
This message has been edited by schrafinator, 06-19-2005 07:58 PM

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 40 by Adminnemooseus, posted 06-21-2005 3:03 PM nator has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 28 of 301 (218122)
06-19-2005 8:11 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by paisano
06-19-2005 4:17 PM


Re: Are all the conservatives here afraid to criticize their team?
I'd prefer a McCain type platform, but I certainly have zero interest in the Democrats.
Would Schraf vote for a Goldwater-type candidate? I doubt it. So what is the point of this thread, other than mutual commiseration over the neocons?
I would have voted for McCain over Gore in the 2000 elections, no question.
I think McCain is a very intelligent, moral man who truly wants to do what's right for all of the American people (not just the rich and the Christian Right), and is a very thoughtful, proven leader.
So, yes, I would have voted for a Goldwater-type candidate.
Anyway, between George W. Bush and John Kerry, which one do you think is more like Goldwater?
I'll give you one guess.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by paisano, posted 06-19-2005 4:17 PM paisano has not replied

Silent H
Member (Idle past 5819 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 29 of 301 (218161)
06-20-2005 6:32 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by paisano
06-19-2005 4:17 PM


Re: Are all the conservatives here afraid to criticize their team?
To some degree.
Not to "some" degree, as this thread was trying to point out. It is a near total rejection of what used to be core traditional Republican values. Again, this is why I was interested in your opinion of the documentary posted here where they themselves credit their liberal background.
Don't you believe balanced budgets, strong military that is used wisely, smaller gov't, and less intrusive gov't are the main fixtures of Rep values?
I'd prefer a McCain type platform, but I certainly have zero interest in the Democrats.
But this underscores schraf's team theory, as well as my contention that most Reps (unlike most Dems) are the ones into Partisanship over principle.
Why could you not have interest in a Dem candidate that had a platform I mentioned above?
It's rather entertaining to watch a bunch of Democrats discuss why the neocons aren't real Republicans.
I'm not a Democrat, crash just said he voted for Bush in 2000, and schraf said she'd have voted for McCain over Gore. What that suggests is that at least three people within this thread are not devoted to party, and concentrate on platform to make a decision.
In this case people like us can criticize Reps who allow neocons to change the party platform and still try to come off as interested in "traditional" values.
So what is the point of this thread, other than mutual commiseration over the neocons?
It appears to be a thread defining the ways neocons (who are currently in charge of Rep policy) differ from traditional Reps. For those that support this administrations policies, it is of interest to hear why they feel such a strong departure from traditional values is allowable, or a defence of why neocons are not departing from such values.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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 Message 31 by Tal, posted 06-20-2005 11:00 AM Silent H has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 30 of 301 (218191)
06-20-2005 10:47 AM
Reply to: Message 29 by Silent H
06-20-2005 6:32 AM


Re: Are all the conservatives here afraid to criticize their team?
quote:
It appears to be a thread defining the ways neocons (who are currently in charge of Rep policy) differ from traditional Reps. For those that support this administrations policies, it is of interest to hear why they feel such a strong departure from traditional values is allowable, or a defence of why neocons are not departing from such values.
As the originator of this thread I hereby concur that the above is exactly what I wanted to discuss.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Silent H, posted 06-20-2005 6:32 AM Silent H has not replied

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