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Author Topic:   Re: Substantiating The Validity Of Bible Prophecy
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 119 (343074)
08-24-2006 5:45 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Archer Opteryx
08-24-2006 5:34 PM


Re: Let's look at some of these so called Prophecies!
I just bet they do. I'm old enough to remember the tension over Quemoy and Matsu.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Archer Opteryx, posted 08-24-2006 5:34 PM Archer Opteryx has not replied

  
xXGEARXx
Member (Idle past 5120 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 77 of 119 (343151)
08-24-2006 9:44 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by Buzsaw
08-23-2006 11:03 PM


Re: Let's look at some of these so called Prophecies!
I probably quoted this wrong, so to make sure I copied and pasted. Forgive my noobishness.
Buzz's quote:
1. Nobody can buy or sell without a mark or number on the hand or forehead.
2. chips with marks and numbers are already being implanted in animals, et al. It will likely be a matter of time before chips will be implanted on the forehead or hand so as to prevent security breaches and identity theft which is becoming a very serious problem.
3. The beast related to the number is the ten nation/region world power confederacy of rulers as per the same beast which is explained in Revelation 17. Thus it is a government mark or number such as the government issued social security number used presently.
4. Never in the history of the world has a number or mark been required for all all nations of the world to buy or sell. Don't forget that this is global.
I have a question. If indeed they start giving out these chips to be placed in my forehead or hand(I will tell them my ass to be a jerk), then how will I know FOR SURE that it is the mark of the beast or not?? I thought the rapture comes first, THEN the mark of the beast, so many years of peace, then the 7 years of trials and tribulations.. Finally the battle of armageddon.
Also, one point I would like to make-sort of in Buzz's defense (I think?), is the fact of terrorism. Since this is the word "coined" for use. To say the Bible predicts Los Angeles or New york City seems interesting to me. I can recall a discussion of the coast guard and how hard it is for them to keep track of all the waters on the coasts(protection). It seems more likely that a nuclear device would be detonated on the coast lines, rather than inland. Now, maybe there is detection systems in place that I am unaware of, but this seems more likely.
I would also like to note that this is NOT my area of education and I am giving a "best" guess here. If this is grossly incorrect, please "learn" me. Thanks.
Edited by AdminJar, : fix codes for quotes, use peek to see what I did

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Nighttrain
Member (Idle past 3993 days)
Posts: 1512
From: brisbane,australia
Joined: 06-08-2004


Message 78 of 119 (343152)
08-24-2006 9:53 PM


The Canon Cut
Two thousand years of failed prophecies and End Times jiggety-jigs and still the penny hasn`t dropped. And to think Revelation barely made the cut.

  
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 79 of 119 (343161)
08-24-2006 11:24 PM
Reply to: Message 61 by jar
08-23-2006 11:30 PM


Pick 10 countries, any 10 countries
the Ten nations obviously refers to the US (the Beast) and the G-10 Group of Nations, Belgium, Canada, France, Italy, Japan, the Netherlands, the United Kingdom, and the United States as well as the Banks of Germany and Sweden.
I remember being in the US in the early '80s during the period ('81 to '85) when the EU had ten countries. I saw televangelists on TV explaining to their flock how the EU was the beast from Revelations and the fact that it had 10 members proved it.
On 1st. January '86 Portugal and Spain joined. You would think the fact there were now 12 countries in the EU would have given the shysters televangelists reason to backrack or - heaven forbid - admit they were wrong. Not a bit of it! I can't remember the details but I saw somebody given some incredibly convoluted (not to mention bullshit) explanation of how the 12 member states were really only 10 so the prophecy was still good and the EU was still the beast.
I left the US long before the EU expanded to 25 members - I wonder if anybody still trying to peddle that line. I know the audience for televangelists are gullible but surely even they can't be that dumb... can they?
I suppose the EU was quietly dropped as the beast during the '90s.

Oops! Wrong Planet

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 Message 61 by jar, posted 08-23-2006 11:30 PM jar has replied

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 80 of 119 (343165)
08-24-2006 11:40 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by MangyTiger
08-24-2006 11:24 PM


Re: Pick 10 countries, any 10 countries
I know the audience for televangelists are gullible but surely even they can't be that dumb... can they?
Sure can. It's really big business now. Peter Popoff, even after his scams were exposed on national TV by James Randi, is still in business. The last I saw on him showed he had a salary of over $500,000.00 in 2004 and his little medicine show had revenue of over $16,000,000.00 in revenue in 2004 with about 37% of that going into "fundraising and expenses".
Can't get much more gullible than that. And he is small time.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by MangyTiger, posted 08-24-2006 11:24 PM MangyTiger has not replied

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anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 81 of 119 (343171)
08-25-2006 12:18 AM
Reply to: Message 80 by jar
08-24-2006 11:40 PM


Re: Pick 10 countries, any 10 countries
quote:
Can't get much more gullible than that. And he is small time.
It may be considered possible. The gullible followers of some end time false prophets of Revelations lost their money. The gullible followers of other false prophet interpreters of Revelations lost their lives, such as in David Koresh, or their freedom, such as in Charles Manson.

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 Message 80 by jar, posted 08-24-2006 11:40 PM jar has not replied

  
anglagard
Member (Idle past 836 days)
Posts: 2339
From: Socorro, New Mexico USA
Joined: 03-18-2006


Message 82 of 119 (343182)
08-25-2006 1:13 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by Buzsaw
08-22-2006 9:56 PM


The Prophecy of Tlaloc?
My passion is with a book which has the complete history of the world from the begining of IDist activity in/on it to the end of it before it burns up after the messianic millenium. It's like reading the back of the book and knowing how it all plays out. That amazing and wonderful book has delightfully enlightened me with all the wisdom and understanding I have that amounts to anything really worthwhile and has made every aspect of life hum nicely these 71 years of my life, 61 of them as a Christian. To me it's like man's operator's manual from the maker of man to run mankind's life and for mankind to troubleshoot any problems that can possibly arise.
I am happy for you and sincerely hope you receive from your god exactly what you desire (ABE2 - not here of course, but in the afterlife). I presume you are a Seventh Day Adventist since they seem to share similar opinions concerning unquestioning belief in their church leader's interpretation of prophecy, apologetics for Ron Wyatt as a fellow 7th, a high regard for the Old Testament to the point of at least saying one follows the 613 laws of Leviticus, an extreme support of all actions of Israel combined with a tremendous hatred of Islam, and based upon principles of biblical innerancy and literalism, an absolute support for YEC that can not be subject to anything remotely resembling rational analysis lest one be damned for eternity. Am I correct in this assumption?
Whether my assumption is true or not, I still do not understand how, as a fundamentalist of inerrancy and literalism one could presume to know the future, as some fortune-teller, despite Leviticus:
19:31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I [am] the LORD your God.
20:6 And the soul that turneth after such as have familiar spirits, and after wizards, to go a whoring after them, I will even set my face against that soul, and will cut him off from among his people.
Or how about these overly ignored gems from your own Bible:
Mat 7:15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.
Mat 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?
Mat 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
Mat 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
Mat 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.
Mat 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mat 24:11 And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.
2 Pet 2:1 [NIV] But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them--bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Pet 2:2 [NIV] Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
2 Pet 2:3 [NIV] In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.
1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.
From your posts, I guess considering your statement, and how well your beliefs about your god and your "interpretation" of prophecy suit yourself and any pre-existing hatred of any and all other religions and ethnic groups, despite any evidence to the contrary, I have a bad feeling you have promoted yourself to the position of speaking for God.
Given what I understand about your own religious belief system (from posts) I strongly suggest you reconsider your position.
ABE - remember, although I am very hard on you, it's business, not personal (Godfather movies). I am alarmed that your beliefs about armageddon may lead some misguided people, when their hopes for any "rapture" are not immediately realized, into hastening the process, thereby murdering more people than all wars put together, if not all life.
Koresh originally came from the 7ths and they share your beliefs to an extraordinary degree. His self-righteousness (along with government incompetence), immolated over 20 children based upon the teachings of a false prophet.
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.
Edited by anglagard, : No reason given.
Edited by anglagard, : change title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 32 by Buzsaw, posted 08-22-2006 9:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
Buzsaw
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 119 (343449)
08-25-2006 10:42 PM


Regarding What Buzsaw Believes
I is apparant that many in this thread are assuming much about what I believe that just isn't so and lumping Buzsaw in with mainstream prophecy teachers/authors such as Hal Lindsey and Walvoord. I've submitted a satement of my belief my church et al for proposed new topics. Please read up on it before assuming any more false stuff about what Buzsaw believes. Thanks in advance for letting me be me and not having me be one of them.
Edited by Buzsaw, : spelling

BUZSAW B 4 U 2 C Y BUZ SAW ---- Jesus said, "When these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads, for your redemption draws near." Luke 21:28

  
ReformedRob
Member (Idle past 5721 days)
Posts: 143
From: Anthem AZ, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 84 of 119 (344448)
08-28-2006 8:20 PM


A more scholarly interpretation
Hello All,
The whole end times thing I believe has been misinterpreted. There is a much more scholarly view called Partial Preterism that demonstrates that all the prophecies except the second coming itself, romans 11 and the conversion of the Jews, and the rapture have been fulfilled.
The beast was Nero who was nicknamed the beast and whose name added up to 666 and in the latin texts 616. The prophecies refer to the end of the age not the end of time or the world. As the gentiles were being brought into the covenant and the Jews were about to be dispersed throughout the world and the temple taken away from them it was a Judgement against the Jews for rejecting the messiah and taking his blood on their hands. It explains why Jesus said that the apostles would see him come back before they went through all the towns and why some would not die before he came back...he did come back in Judgment in 70 AD and the fifth cycle of judgment of Deut 38 was fullfilled the diaspora. The verses stating to come back in the clouds with glory in Matthew was the same language used in warnings of coming judgement against Egypt and Babylon. In the beginning of Revelations John says that he is in the tribulation with you NOW and etc...
Google Gentry for his work on identifying the beast and David Chilton's two books, "The Great Tribulation" and especially "The Days of Vengeance" detail why the prophecies about the end times were already fulfilled except the second coming etc...I listed above. Sorry there will be no anti-christ who receives a mortal head wound and lives, 10 nation confederacy, the US isnt the beast.
The whore of Babylon in the city with 7 Hill was Jerusalem about to be judged, Nero was the last if the Ceasers in the bloodline and everyone thought that the Roman empire was dead when he killed himself (the beast with the mortal head wound) and Nero was only Caesar reigning for a little while etc... Sorry to burst your bubbles folks but now you have to worry about Christ coming like he promised...a thief in the night and we are to be ready for him NOW! so no man knows the day our hour for real!

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by xXGEARXx, posted 08-28-2006 8:30 PM ReformedRob has replied
 Message 109 by Buzsaw, posted 09-01-2006 10:23 PM ReformedRob has replied

  
xXGEARXx
Member (Idle past 5120 days)
Posts: 41
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 85 of 119 (344452)
08-28-2006 8:30 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by ReformedRob
08-28-2006 8:20 PM


Re: A more scholarly interpretation
Help me out here.
You mention Christ came back in 70AD. Could you be more specific about the apostles seeing him? If He died and was raised, then came back in 70AD, wouldn't that be the second coming? Obviously not. Help me understand this, if you would be so kind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by ReformedRob, posted 08-28-2006 8:20 PM ReformedRob has replied

Replies to this message:
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ReformedRob
Member (Idle past 5721 days)
Posts: 143
From: Anthem AZ, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 86 of 119 (344458)
08-28-2006 8:49 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by xXGEARXx
08-28-2006 8:30 PM


Re: A more scholarly interpretation
The wording in Matthew 24 says he will return in the Clouds with Glory. These same words were used in the old testament to prophesy God coming in Judgement against Babylon and Egypt so it is prophesying a Judgement by Jesus against Jerusalem which is not the second coming of Christ as the conquering king to rule his kingdom. Hold on I'll get the website that has the books I mentioned where anyone can read what I believe is much better interpretation of eschatology. It's http://www.freebooks.com and the book in the prophecy section "The Days of Vengence" By Chilton gives a verse by verse exegesis of Revelations. The other shorter more condensed book by Chilton is 'The Great Tribulation' also on the website both to be read free!

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by xXGEARXx, posted 08-28-2006 8:30 PM xXGEARXx has not replied

  
ReformedRob
Member (Idle past 5721 days)
Posts: 143
From: Anthem AZ, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 87 of 119 (344460)
08-28-2006 8:54 PM
Reply to: Message 70 by ringo
08-24-2006 1:33 PM


Re: Missed this one.
Ha! found you again Ringo!
Again Ringo is Wrongo!
ringo writes:
As I recall, back in the 60s the likes of Hal Lindsey didn't have much to say about Islam per se. It was just "the Arabs". It wasn't until the rise of Islamic fundamentalism and international terrorism that Islam was suddenly demonized.
I am not a pre-millennial dispensationalist but Hal Lindsey Identified Russia as Magog who was started by the man Gog who was Muslim!
Sorry couldnt resist!

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

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jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 88 of 119 (344463)
08-28-2006 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by ReformedRob
08-28-2006 8:54 PM


Re: Missed this one.
Well since Gog shows up in Zeke, it is very unlikely he was Muslim.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by ReformedRob, posted 08-28-2006 8:54 PM ReformedRob has replied

Replies to this message:
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ReformedRob
Member (Idle past 5721 days)
Posts: 143
From: Anthem AZ, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 89 of 119 (344470)
08-28-2006 9:18 PM
Reply to: Message 51 by Brian
08-23-2006 11:22 AM


Sorry Brian But...
brian writes:
The funny thing is, there hasn't been a single prophecy in the Bible that has actually come to pass, not a single thing.
and
brian writes:
If I were you I'd be more concerned about the prophecies that haven't come true, especially all those that Jesus said He would fulfill. Not a single word Jesus said has come to pass.
You couldnt be more wrong. In another post you correctly told me that just because I asserted something didnt make it so and to back up what I said...your turn buddy. The truth is there are only a couple of biblical prophecies that are yet to be fulfilled.
The book of Daniel is a good example. chapter 9 gives the prophecy: "Seventy sevens are determined for you holy city to finish the transgression, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity, to bring in righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the Most Holy. Know therefore and Understand That from the going forth of the command to restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, there shall be seven sevens and sixty two sevens; the street shall be built again, and the wall Even in Troublesome times. And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off but not for himself..."
The command was given by Artexerxes to Nehemiah who was allowed to return to Jerusalem to rebuild it. Archeologists found the stone cylinder with the command on it. That started the countdown. the sevens are properly translated as years or weeks of years in Hebrew. Exactly 69 weeks of years later...to the day...Palm Sunday... Jesus was acknowledged as the Messiah in Jerusalem. And then 62 weeks later Jesus was crucified.
Later in Daniel 11 Daniel describes the coming world kingdoms the same for the interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's dream of the statue. Daniel was written 606 BC but even if one late dates it they cannot get it later than the translation of the septuagint in 200 BC but it was obviously written before that. Anyway the statue of Nebechenezzar has Babylon, followed by the Medio-Persions followed by Greece then by Rome then the white stone cut without hands...the messiah. Daniel 11 describes each of the kingdoms coming accurately.
No one can explain these prophecies...you can only try to late date Daniel only so far but it was written when it claims 606 BC.
I throw down the gauntlet Brian show me a prophecy that is supposed to have come true that didnt.

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 51 by Brian, posted 08-23-2006 11:22 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 97 by PaulK, posted 08-29-2006 3:38 AM ReformedRob has replied
 Message 99 by Brian, posted 08-29-2006 8:36 AM ReformedRob has replied

  
ReformedRob
Member (Idle past 5721 days)
Posts: 143
From: Anthem AZ, USA
Joined: 08-27-2006


Message 90 of 119 (344472)
08-28-2006 9:22 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by jar
08-28-2006 9:05 PM


Re: Missed this one.
jarhead writes:
Well since Gog shows up in Zeke, it is very unlikely he was Muslim.
The prophecy of Gog is for the future...not in 'Zeke's' time. Duh!
Anyway read my other post...I believe the 'end time' prophecies are really 'end of the age' prophecies fulfilled by 70 AD anyway. I was just poking fun at Ringo!

"...but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers; and they will turn their ears away from the truth, and be turned aside to fables"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 9:05 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 91 by jar, posted 08-28-2006 9:28 PM ReformedRob has replied

  
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