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Author Topic:   What if Satan reformed?
MangyTiger
Member (Idle past 6353 days)
Posts: 989
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 07-30-2004


Message 76 of 234 (348936)
09-13-2006 9:16 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by viewfromthetop
09-13-2006 8:34 PM


Re: Angel DNA
After Dateline NBC has aired a show
Do try and remember that not everyone lives in the US - most non-Americans won't have the faintest idea what you are on about.
Actually even though I used to live to there - so I know the Dateline show - I would still have been in the dark if I hadn't recently happened to catch a segment on a British TV show reviewing the current state of American TV which featured these shows. Fortunately the name "Perverted Justice" stuck in my mind and Google and Wikipedia did the rest.
As for the rest of your post and the conclusions you draw - well maybe it's just the case that the sexual drive of these men is so strong it overwhelms their common sense. It's not an uncommon phenomena, this is just an extreme case with extreme consequences.

Oops! Wrong Planet

This message is a reply to:
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viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 77 of 234 (348943)
09-13-2006 10:11 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by MangyTiger
09-13-2006 9:16 PM


Re: Angel DNA
That is my point exactly. There is no "free" will. We might have a hard time indicating what free means. I would guess that it means there is a 50/50 probability between two mutually exclusive and exhaustive categories. And that the opportunity to make a choice is not hindered by an intervening variable. Now when we investigate God, we understand that He is running things on both sides of the coin so to speak. In fact the Psalms indicated that He knows the lots before they are cast. So flipping a coin isn't really chance, every flip was determined before the foundation of the world. To me that is like going downtown to play the shell game in front of a con artist (no disrespect intended to God btw). I don't want to put my money on the table if I really don't have an equal chance of winning. So if God is influencing the coin toss, then the choice isn't free at all. So I can understand if someone has not seen Dateline and gets caught, but what I can't understand if free will is involved is for predators to do nothing to protect themselves from Dateline so to speak. You are right, common sense would indicate that if a predator has seen the show then that someone would do something to avoid speaking into the microphone. So the erge as you call it is a demonic influence that prevails over common sense. But the only way to test it would be to find out if given the same circumstances the individuals could avoid the exact same circumstance. But unfortunately we cannot test that because part of the intervening variables are time and knowledge which create affects once the hidden cameras are revealed. Prov 19:21 states that there are many plans in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. So if predator A is to get saved in prison as a result of his proposed sin against minor A then it happens as a result of the Dateline investigation. If God's plan for predator B to be an object of wrath then the sinner stays a sinner as a result of Satan's influence on the subject. But there is never an opportunity for either predator to change the outcome as per Psalms 139 which states that every member (day) was written before formed in your mother ie the foundation of the world.
Or your idea is at work and we need to cut off their penises. Or rather we should just kill them because we cannot be sure that they will ever do it again. The real issue comes when they get out of prison because the elect of God should start producing fruits of the spirit which don't include predation. But on the other hand society doesn't understand spiritual things so will have to punish all equally and guard all equally. While we may want to think this way in Utopia it isn't practical. It really makes most sense if all the craziness was planned by God and that He is in control down to the subatomic particles.

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Philip
Member (Idle past 4722 days)
Posts: 656
From: Albertville, AL, USA
Joined: 03-10-2002


Message 78 of 234 (348964)
09-13-2006 11:38 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Archer Opteryx
08-18-2006 5:02 PM


The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Christians believe in a literal Satan
My shoddy understanding is that scriptures really do behoove us to address and sincerely confess our dark-side and (my) deadly demons:
Satan, Death, Hell, the Beast and False Prophet, sin, and self etc. are all real agendas that (as Phat aptly quoted regarding the Satan) are incapable of doing good, incapable of truth, just "vessels of wrath" (Romans, KJV), etc.
Now, the holy battle going on in my soul, where God’s grace (ultimately) saves me from my sins by a lowly Redeemer’s bloody annihilation (3 days and 3 nights in the heart of the earth) and about 2/3rds of classical fundy-hymns . address us all as “ensnared souls” in need of Salvation, Restoration, Redemption, new-life, new-beginnings, 2nd chances, forgiveness, greater resurrection, orchestrational dancing, symphonies, etc.
The whole idea of Evil incarnate flipoly repenting seems jesting, insulting, oxymoronic, vanity, vexation, ignorance, deception, and a real trailer-trash-topic. I propose you sincerely drop this foolish debate and have a little respect for the “hope of the gentiles”

DISCLAIMER: No representation is made that the quality of scientific and metaphysical statements written is greater than the quality of those statements written by anyone else.

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Archer Opteryx
Member (Idle past 3597 days)
Posts: 1811
From: East Asia
Joined: 08-16-2006


Message 79 of 234 (348979)
09-14-2006 1:15 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Philip
09-13-2006 11:38 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Philip:
The whole idea of Evil incarnate flipoly repenting seems jesting, insulting, oxymoronic, vanity, vexation, ignorance, deception, and a real trailer-trash-topic.
What's flippant about the possibility of repentance?
I propose you sincerely drop this foolish debate and have a little respect for the “hope of the gentiles”
I don't see how you get disrespect from this. None is intended or implied. Note what The Hope of the Gentiles himself has to say here:
The seventy returned with joy, saying, ”Lord, in your name even the demons submit to us!’ [Jesus] said to them, ”I watched Satan fall from heaven like a flash of lightning.'
Luke 10.17-18
If Satan literally existed in heaven once, he cannot be simply 'Evil incarnate' as you say. He has already shown that he is capable of change. It's change for the worse, to be sure, but change.
The question may legitimately be raised then as to whether this being remains capable of change. If so, the possibility of redemption exists.
If one views Satan as a real person--an individual being, with a consciousnesss and personality--then change would always have to be a possibility. Human beings had a 'fall' of their own, didn't they? And doesn't God help them up? So the question becomes one of God's grace. Does it have a limit? Why would it not extend to a contrite Satan? If not, why not?
Of course, if you regard Satan as mainly a symbolic figure--a personification of evil, 'Evil incarnate' as you say--the question goes away. He is pure evil and remains so. Reverse a symbol and the original symbol ceases to exist.
Viewing Satan as a symbol rather than a person means regarding him as a literary invention or, if we think of him as having actual existence, as more of a computer program than a person (as viewfrom thetop puts it). The story of his 'past' as a fallen angel would be made of essentially the same stuff. His 'fall' would either be construed as a literary invention or as the moment God unleashed his 'computer virus' onto creation.
What is your view?
.
Edited by Archer Opterix, : Typo.

Archer
All species are transitional.

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viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 80 of 234 (349065)
09-14-2006 1:48 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Archer Opteryx
09-14-2006 1:15 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
I believe you are tripping on some semantics of flesh vs computer program. There need be no difference beteen a physical being or one that goes between physical or spiritual or both. That is a process we cannot test unless someone calls themself Satan and even then we dont know if that person is a liar. And the issue of change does not negate a computer program but rather a threshold for a subroutine. The Word confirms that God is not a liar, but God sends lying spirits and God repents. He just had to plan the change from before the foundation of the earth. Thus when God is acting like Woody Allen, he is simply following the script. All things are predictable by simple premise and if we could see the spiritual forces at work, we could predict them just like God. If an act is by the prince of the earth then it is a lie and is antigod. If an act is twarted by God in order to reveal His elect, then it is righteous. Jesus is the author and finisher of the faith of the elect. All other faith is not really faith. It is a lie. So through the plan of God, it was intended that Jesus guard the writing of the Word and call all those that are of the elect. And the editing is a finished work. No one can change that especially Satan who is not of the elect.
The gray area is for those of us that are trying to tell who is the elect and who may become the elect and whether actions are righteous. The simple answer is from Prov 19:21 which states that there are many plans in a man's mind, but it is the Lord's purpose for him that will stand. Thus no matter what, God controls the physical. But in my mind, I will only find rest when I realize that He is in control of every molecule. If not, then I will find myself preaching like Paul and trying to figure out how something God hates (my flesh) can be stapled to the love of God and do or continue to do things which are detestable. So faith is really personal. Faith creates resistance to move from hatred of God to God. But once an individual becomes a believer all bets are off. If the person has little amounts of faith then that person may end up with a lot of religious rituals. If the person has great faith then that person may be led by God to do acts that might be considered crazy. Just look at David to see weird things going on without consequence. Thus to be on the wild side you need to have great faith. In reality some of the greatest what we would call murderers were actually of the righteous. Look at Mannassah, David, Mosses, even Paul who murdered in the name of God. And Paul was purposing to murder the very first elect out of the gate. Thus the only place I can find where it is safe to rest is that the whole crazy thing is purposed by God. ALL OF IT. And if you can't see it, perhaps you should pray for the pride to be removed in your life, because I cannot find a scripture which would indicate that my free will overrides God's plan. And I cannot find where God is waiting for each elect to determine whether or not they want to accept him. That is absurd.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 81 of 234 (349068)
09-14-2006 2:07 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by viewfromthetop
09-14-2006 1:48 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Hi, viewfromthetop.
I can hardly wait till paragraphs are invented. How about you?
And if you can't see it, perhaps you should pray for the pride to be removed in your life
It seems to me that the ones who claim special insight - the ones who claim to "see" what others don't - are the ones who are prideful.

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viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 82 of 234 (349075)
09-14-2006 2:34 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by ringo
09-14-2006 2:07 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
sorry. rambling.
It was Moses who said he was the humblest man on the planet, but would guess that most everyone around thought it was pride. The fact is that I was on the fence about predestination and election until a pastor friend helped me over. I do beleive that he received revelation through a Joseph experience. He had a lot of time on his hands and went through the scriptures and continues like no one else I have ever met. I wasn't exactly excited to give up my free will but I find the rest there. And since it isn't my idea...
But as for pride I will take your comment in stride, as Paul did the thorn in his side where God reminded him that if he didn't put a governor on that he would speed outa control
As for the premises. I believe they are sound. And Mat 10:27 says to shout it from the rooftops so I apologize if I was shouting with a bull horn and u r my neighbor

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Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 83 of 234 (349077)
09-14-2006 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by viewfromthetop
09-14-2006 2:34 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
viewfromthetop writes:
As for the premises. I believe they are sound.
I didn't read much of your premises, for reasons that I hinted at.
Could you present your case a little more carefully - bearing in mind that the topic is "What if Satan reformed?"
And set your bullhorn to "stun".

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viewfromthetop
Member (Idle past 6088 days)
Posts: 25
Joined: 09-09-2006


Message 84 of 234 (349119)
09-14-2006 6:26 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by ringo
09-14-2006 2:48 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Satan was programmed by God to work evil. He was a murderer from the beginning. He cannot change, because he is not part of the elect nor of the righteous. It is written that Satan has the purpose of trying to seduce the elect after the 1000 years. Thus evil becomes the witness that those of God cannot be tempted. Then he is extinguised. Thus Satan is already planned to be locked up in the end by a single angel.
People have much the same predestined path to follow. Those that have not be saved are under the authority of satan until they get saved. Once saved they are under the authority of the Holy Spirit and all is according to God's plan for grace and mercy. God determined who would be part of the elect group before the foundation of the world. And the elect are drawn to him in resistence.
The resistence is due to the fact that God and Satan are diametrically opposed. And there is no "free" choices because like the Israelites that saw miracles on a daily basis and chose not to believe, flesh is under the authority of satan and will repel God. So the Holy Spirit has to intervene on the will of the elect to make sure they are dragged to God. Then they become heirs.
All was decided long ago. God's will is a completed work and we don't wait around for individual wills to decided or hold up the process.

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 Message 83 by ringo, posted 09-14-2006 2:48 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by ringo, posted 09-14-2006 6:46 PM viewfromthetop has replied
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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 85 of 234 (349127)
09-14-2006 6:46 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by viewfromthetop
09-14-2006 6:26 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
viewfromthetop writes:
Satan was programmed by God to work evil.
See, that's where it starts to stop making sense. When the program is completed, we don't throw the computer into a lake of fire. Why would God do that?
The resistence is due to the fact that God and Satan are diametrically opposed.
Again, that makes no sense.
Why would God create a program that was "diametrically opposed" to himself? (In my experience, programs are quite capable on their own of doing the opposite of what I want. )
So the Holy Spirit has to intervene on the will of the elect to make sure they are dragged to God.
Sounds like you're saying that God is having a tug-of-war with his own program. When that happens to me, I have Ctrl+Alt+Delete to fall back on.
But you make it sound like God has no further control over His own creation.
-------------
I'm aware of the dogma, but I was hoping you'd put some thought into it. The question here is "What if Satan reformed?", not "Why can't Satan reform?"

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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 86 of 234 (349132)
09-14-2006 6:54 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by viewfromthetop
09-14-2006 6:26 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
Satan was programmed by God to work evil. He was a murderer from the beginning. He cannot change, because he is not part of the elect nor of the righteous.
Satan wasn't programmed by God to work evil. Traditional theology understands passages in Isaiah and Ezekiel (which I would have to look up, isaiah 14 I think) to reveal that he was originally the greatest archangel, who then fell and took many angels with him, who are now the demons. They now work evil. Being a murderer from the beginning refers to his work in Eden seducing Eve I believe, which brought death into the world.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 87 of 234 (349142)
09-14-2006 7:27 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by Faith
09-14-2006 6:54 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
quote:
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Though that isn't exactly like your version.
As for the murderer from the beginning, Jesus said:
quote:
Joh 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
He said that to believers, by the way. (John 8:31)

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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 88 of 234 (349238)
09-15-2006 3:10 AM
Reply to: Message 84 by viewfromthetop
09-14-2006 6:26 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
People have much the same predestined path to follow. Those that have not be saved are under the authority of satan until they get saved. Once saved they are under the authority of the Holy Spirit and all is according to God's plan for grace and mercy. God determined who would be part of the elect group before the foundation of the world. And the elect are drawn to him in resistence.
that makes no sense at all, god has no control over satan? didn't he create satan, i thought he was all powerful and could do anything?
and if god has created us for one group or another then we are doomed before we even get a shot at heaven? what kind of god is that that would do such a terrible thing, i thought he loved us?
this god you have is a monster worse than satan ever could be, with his picking and choosing who gets elected to go to heaven without a trial, this isn't even biblical! jesus even says we will be tried on our conduct in life! [/qs]So the Holy Spirit has to intervene on the will of the elect to make sure they are dragged to God. Then they become heirs.[/qs] that doesn't make any sense at all, you controdict yourself! if god decided who would go and who would not before god even created anything theres no point in the holy spirit doing anything if we already are meant for heaven
All was decided long ago. God's will is a completed work and we don't wait around for individual wills to decided or hold up the process.
so which is it? are we blessed before god even made us or are we damned if the holy spirit doesn't intervene?
you can't have it both ways you know, pick one

This message is a reply to:
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ReverendDG
Member (Idle past 4110 days)
Posts: 1119
From: Topeka,kansas
Joined: 06-06-2005


Message 89 of 234 (349240)
09-15-2006 3:21 AM
Reply to: Message 87 by ringo
09-14-2006 7:27 PM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
i find it ironic that the idea of lucifer being another name for satan comical considering that its non biblical, milton and dante infuenced this absurd belief
Lucifer - Wikipedia
from wiki, many non-canon texts also influenced this belief like enoch and adam and eve 1 and 2
The original Hebrew text of this verse was —— ‘ (heilel ben-schahar), meaning "Helel son of Shahar." Helel was a Babylonian / Canaanite god who was the son of another Babylonian / Canaanite god named Shahar.
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
helel = morning-star=lucifer
ben-shahar=god of the morn=son-of-the-morning
ringo you should knoww better than to forget the context from above it
14:4 You will recite this parable about the king of Babylonia: How has the oppressor come to an end, the arrogance been ended?
14:10 They will all proclaim and say to you, "You also have been stricken as we were; you are compared to us.
14:11 Brought down to the nether-world were your pride and the tumult of your stringed instruments; maggots are spread out under you, and worms are your covers.
if you read the whole thing it even says its about the king of babylonia
only people wanting to believe this satan=lucifer nonsense, ignore all the stuff that says its not talking about satan but about a king claiming to be the son of a god, sounds kind of ironic to me..
plus its funny its the only line they use every other useage is not:
et quasi meridianus fulgor consurget tibi ad vesperam et cum te consumptum putaveris orieris ut lucifer
the translaters of the kjv changed it to morning but kept the line in isiah
And thine age shall be clearer than the noonday thou shalt shine forth thou shalt be as the morning
Edited by ReverendDG, : No reason given.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 90 of 234 (349245)
09-15-2006 4:19 AM
Reply to: Message 89 by ReverendDG
09-15-2006 3:21 AM


Re: The Gospel of Grace Necessitates the Devil
ReverendDG writes:
ringo you should knoww better than to forget the context from above it
I was only providing the reference for Faith - and I did point out that it doesn't match her version.
(By the way, that seems to be the only direct reference to "Lucifer" in the entire KJV.)

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