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Author Topic:   Is God good?
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 16 of 722 (661263)
05-03-2012 3:42 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
05-03-2012 2:58 PM


That's not how the bible describes God. God is gravity, that is how you should see Him.
So are you basically saying that nothing could have prevented those children from dying (flood, jewish imperialism, David's bastard)? That is the equivalent of what happens when you throw a rock up that it must come down? That if you are God's chosen ruler and you screw up then you doom a baby to die a terrible death?
Is that some kind of horror version of every time a bell rings an angel gets its wings?
Appologists for god have this arrogant position that just because humanity can't or won't produce an objective morality that therefore their sky daddy must do it.
I happen to think that a certain basic morality CAN in fact be formed from first principles but even if I couldn't it wouldn't matter one bit. I don't need your tyrant god to tell me that murdering children is bad. I can simply join with the other members of my community to decide for ourselves to convict anyone who would take such an action. It doesn't matter that its relative only that it is real. That your war god escapes condemnation in our society for the exact same actions we consider crimes is only a function of his legacy and frankly, his non-existence.

BUT if objects for gratitude and admiration are our desire, do they not present themselves every hour to our eyes? Do we not see a fair creation prepared to receive us the instant we are born --a world furnished to our hands, that cost us nothing? Is it we that light up the sun; that pour down the rain; and fill the earth with abundance? Whether we sleep or wake, the vast machinery of the universe still goes on. Are these things, and the blessings they indicate in future, nothing to, us? Can our gross feelings be excited by no other subjects than tragedy and suicide? Or is the gloomy pride of man become so intolerable, that nothing can flatter it but a sacrifice of the Creator? --Thomas Paine

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 05-03-2012 2:58 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 05-05-2012 12:41 AM Jazzns has replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


(1)
Message 17 of 722 (661393)
05-05-2012 12:41 AM
Reply to: Message 16 by Jazzns
05-03-2012 3:42 PM


Jazzns writes:
Yet you seem perfectly willing to dismiss the obviously ahistoric events of the OT as the "context" of the cultures in which they were written. Why can't that be true for the newer writings? If you readily accept that the facts of the story of Moses and Joshua are indeed bullshit then why do you give a pass to the equally anonymous, equally agenda driven posthumous ghost writings of Paul and the gospel writers?
Hi Jazzns
I copied this from the other thread as it is more on topic here and I think that it was just a matter of time before it would be pointed out to us.
I do accept the NT as being personally and culturally conditioned. However that doesn’t mean that what they wrote should be rejected. People recorded things for a reason. Every Biblical author had a point of view and he would write in a way that supports that point of view.
Certainly Matthew had an agenda to connect Jesus to His Jewish roots and looked for ways to make that point. Certainly the writer(s) of the Pastoral Epistles had an agenda that they wanted to convey but that doesn’t make them wrong. Yes there are conflicting opinions in the Bible but IMHO that just makes it more alive. The Christian story is of God working through His created humans beings. He has given us intelligence coupled with enquiring minds along with a sense of morality.
So yes, there are contradictions in the Bible. We don’t have certainty. There is ambiguity. Just look at the different views of Christians on this board.
My own view is that the one constant in the NT is that Jesus was crucified and that He came back in a physical resurrection body. IMHO there is no plausible reason for the Christian movement to get off the ground unless the first Christians, (Jewish though they were of course), were convinced of this fact. I believe that the writers of the Gospels and the Epistles to the best of their ability wrote down the stories of what happened and what it all meant.
Personally I can see no motivation for them to manufacture the whole thing and the Gospel accounts tell a story that isn’t what anyone would write if they were just making it up. It seems obvious to me that they believed what they wrote even if they are writing with their own personal biases. The question then becomes whether or not they were right about the resurrection and then how accurately they recorded the actions and words of Jesus.
We all make up our minds of what we believe about it all and at that point it becomes a faith issue. I believe that the Gospels do tell the story of the resurrection of Jesus in a way that aside from some details is historically accurate. I also believe that the resurrection vindicates the message that in some way the man Jesus was the embodiment of God.
If we just get away from the idea that the Bible has to be inerrant, and that it is God as articulated through Jesus that we worship then we can get an understanding of the nature of God, and that through the teachings of Jesus it is clear that God is good. However, like I said, and no matter how sure I am of what I believe, it is a faith.
Cheers

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 16 by Jazzns, posted 05-03-2012 3:42 PM Jazzns has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 05-05-2012 1:24 PM GDR has replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


(1)
Message 18 of 722 (661423)
05-05-2012 11:57 AM
Reply to: Message 14 by mike the wiz
05-03-2012 2:58 PM


The law of non-contradiction?
Hello Mike,
Mike the wiz writes:
The error is that of the law of none-contradiction. You are saying that God is ultimately bad and yet there is nothing ultimately bad.
It just doesn't work - it takes denial to pretend to yourselves that this works
It is these scriptures that describe God, which we hold as comments pertaining to God, such as, "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all". We TRUST and have FAITH that such scriptures are true, so we are not going to make foolish and self-righteous politically correct assertions about God, who we are told, is unfathomably great.
If it is 100% accurate, even for the topic, then LOGICALLY, you have came to a non sequitur by saying God is no good, because christ said, "there is only one who is good, that being God".
So if the bible is 100% accurate, then it would mean that when you believe in 100% of the bible, you are obviously not going to come to the conclusion that God is not good, because many scriptures tell us that He is the source of all good.
Well than that to is in error because of the law of non-contradiction.
1 John 1:5 writes:
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Isaiah 45:7 writes:
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
So if you are to believe that the bible is 100% acurate than it is impossible for it to be correct in saying that there is no darkness in God while at the same time saying that God is responsible for darkness. It is by it's own proclomation contradictory and by your logic, in error.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 14 by mike the wiz, posted 05-03-2012 2:58 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 11-22-2012 10:15 AM rueh has replied

  
Jazzns
Member (Idle past 3912 days)
Posts: 2657
From: A Better America
Joined: 07-23-2004


Message 19 of 722 (661437)
05-05-2012 1:24 PM
Reply to: Message 17 by GDR
05-05-2012 12:41 AM


moved?
I am not sure why you moved it over here. My points were about the scripture not about morality.
I'll respond when I have time later but I will be putting it back in the original thread if thats okay with you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 17 by GDR, posted 05-05-2012 12:41 AM GDR has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 20 by GDR, posted 05-05-2012 8:45 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
GDR
Member
Posts: 6202
From: Sidney, BC, Canada
Joined: 05-22-2005
Member Rating: 1.9


Message 20 of 722 (661456)
05-05-2012 8:45 PM
Reply to: Message 19 by Jazzns
05-05-2012 1:24 PM


Re: moved?
I've already been told that I was off topic on that other thread and it is my view that I was a lot more on topic then than we are now.
I guess if admin agrees she'll tell us.

He has told you, O man, what is good ; And what does the LORD require of you But to do justice, to love kindness, And to walk humbly with your God.
Micah 6:8

This message is a reply to:
 Message 19 by Jazzns, posted 05-05-2012 1:24 PM Jazzns has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 21 of 722 (681070)
11-22-2012 10:15 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by rueh
05-05-2012 11:57 AM


Re: The law of non-contradiction?
quote:
1 John 1:5 writes:
This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all.
Isaiah 45:7 writes:
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
So if you are to believe that the bible is 100% acurate than it is impossible for it to be correct in saying that there is no darkness in God while at the same time saying that God is responsible for darkness. It is by it's own proclomation contradictory and by your logic, in error.
Why is it a contradiction to say that God can create or allow something to exist that He is not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by rueh, posted 05-05-2012 11:57 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 22 by rueh, posted 11-23-2012 9:11 AM Phat has replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 22 of 722 (681145)
11-23-2012 9:11 AM
Reply to: Message 21 by Phat
11-22-2012 10:15 AM


Re: The law of non-contradiction?
Good morning Phat, hope you had a good Thanksgiving.
Why is it a contradiction to say that God can create or allow something to exist that He is not?
Well let's frame it on a human level. If I were to create a bomb and place it in a school. This bomb would only detonate if one of the kids disobeyed a school rule. Would I be evil? Or would the childeren be responsible for their own fate? Since it was they who knowingly broke a rule. How can I create and knowingly do something that is considered evil without being evil myself? In the same way. How can God create darkness or disaster and knowingly inflict it upon others, without being responsible for that which was created?

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by Phat, posted 11-22-2012 10:15 AM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 11-23-2012 9:55 AM rueh has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 23 of 722 (681147)
11-23-2012 9:55 AM
Reply to: Message 22 by rueh
11-23-2012 9:11 AM


Light and Darkness
Creating the option of darkness merely allows free will. If I had a kid, for example, and commanded them to stay inside and never go outside, the free will of the child would only be established if there was an outside. If reality consisted only of "inside" or of "light" there would be no outside...no darkness...with which to give free will a viable alternative. Thats my take on it, in a nutshell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by rueh, posted 11-23-2012 9:11 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 24 by Stile, posted 11-23-2012 10:02 AM Phat has not replied
 Message 25 by rueh, posted 11-23-2012 10:34 AM Phat has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


Message 24 of 722 (681148)
11-23-2012 10:02 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
11-23-2012 9:55 AM


Re: Light and Darkness
Phat writes:
If reality consisted only of "inside" or of "light" there would be no outside...no darkness...with which to give free will a viable alternative. Thats my take on it, in a nutshell.
You seem to be hinging "free will" upon a light vs. dark (good vs. evil) choice.
Why is that? Must it be so?
Do you not think that I exercise my free will when I choose a blue shirt over a green one?
Removing evil may remove some amount of free will. But I think it's a bit dramatic to say that it removes all free will.
What do you think?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 11-23-2012 9:55 AM Phat has not replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


Message 25 of 722 (681152)
11-23-2012 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 23 by Phat
11-23-2012 9:55 AM


Re: Light and Darkness
So to bring this back to my hypothetical. The kids in the school would only have free will once the bomb was in place?
I interjected when Mike the wiz wrote:
Mike the Wiz writes:
So if the bible is 100% accurate, then it would mean that when you believe in 100% of the bible, you are obviously not going to come to the conclusion that God is not good, because many scriptures tell us that He is the source of all good.
My take is, that his objection do to the law of non contradiction. (which by the way I think is phooey, many things in life are contradictory) does not bear out when you read what the bible says about God. I believe that if we are going to take the bible passages as a literal interpretation about the actions and will of God. Than it says that God is the source of evil as well. By creating darkness and disaster that would make God responsible and the source of the consequences of that which God created.
Is God good, or evil? The truth is I don't know. I don't have any information on which to make such a determination. But if we frame it as: Is God of the bible, reading as 100% accurate good or evil? Then God is evil. God creates evil, God creates disasters and therfore responsible for the consequences from God's creation.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 23 by Phat, posted 11-23-2012 9:55 AM Phat has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 26 by mike the wiz, posted 11-23-2012 12:06 PM rueh has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 26 of 722 (681161)
11-23-2012 12:06 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by rueh
11-23-2012 10:34 AM


Re: Light and Darkness
The contradiction you proposed, is not really a contradiction.
Logically, the two predicates are disparate. You can do evil, and not be evil, logically.
Evil = does evil actions.
Does evil actions = Evil? (incorrect, affirmation of consequent)
It's easy to fire things back at me, BUT the implications of relative morality have not changed, if there is no moral God, and this universe is atheist, then there is no such thing as "evil" ULTIMATELY, as it is only between our ears in such a case.
You have no moral foundation. Your morals in picture form, are like balloons floating in your mind, when you go "pop" so do your morals. God will only be "evil" for as long as the moral relativist lives because as soon as your thoughts end, MORALITY ends, if it is based on a subjective set of preferences.
In a society of the Amish, God is not "evil", but if atheists joined that society, God would "become" evil. He would go back to being good, when the atheists left. (Reductio ad absurdum)
Think about it. Some people have a morality that homosexual sex is moral, and mike the wiz is an evil fundamentalist that would stone evolutionists if given the chance. To which I can reply, logically, "pink evil bubbles hate me, and my morality is to destroy all evil pink bubbles, and everyone who is not mike the wiz is an evil pink bubble". Now if enough people believe me, that will become the morality that is right and wrong, just like people believed Hitler was right when he said that Jews are evil, smelly, and less than human.
Ultimately, there is no basis for right and wrong except what is beneficial to society, or the "majority" opinion, if there is no moral God.
Now you might say, "but I know wrong" - EXACTLY, therefore you were created as a moral being AND God IS moral, AND he says we are all guilty of sin, therefore we need to repent and only His morals count. You are more precious to Him than you could possibly even imagine and therefore you are a glorious creation. You know this to be true. (search your feelings Luke)
OR - you can think you are wiser than the creator of the universe.
WHY DO IT? It is futility. You are NOT just a hairless ape - you are of eternal value and deserve eternal love and an eternal destiny. I DEMAND you search your feelings, you will know it to be true. You are not an accident, you were specifically and marvelously made.
(This is my final thought, as one of my posts takes the effort of 20 USUAL posts. I hope you will consider and study what I have said, and google any terms I have mentioned, to test me.)
Thanks for your time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by rueh, posted 11-23-2012 10:34 AM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 27 by rueh, posted 11-23-2012 12:33 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 28 by Stile, posted 11-23-2012 12:49 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
rueh
Member (Idle past 3661 days)
Posts: 382
From: universal city tx
Joined: 03-03-2008


(1)
Message 27 of 722 (681164)
11-23-2012 12:33 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by mike the wiz
11-23-2012 12:06 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
Hello Mike,
Mike writes:
The contradiction you proposed, is not really a contradiction.
Logically, the two predicates are disparate. You can do evil, and not be evil, logically.
Evil = does evil actions.
Does evil actions = Evil? (incorrect, affirmation of consequent)
Care to give an example of how you can do evil without being evil yourself?
Mike writes:
Now you might say, "but I know wrong" - EXACTLY, therefore you were created as a moral being AND God IS moral, AND he says we are all guilty of sin, therefore we need to repent and only His morals count.
I disagree. Knowing right from wrong does not mean that there is a God who imbibed you with this knowledge. Right and wrong are a function of your culture and your expeirences. When I was a child I had to be taught what was right and what was wrong. Just as you were. I took these teachings and applied them to my life and make my own moral judgments based upon them. Are they subjective. Of course they are they. That doesn't make them any less valid though.
Edited by rueh, : No reason given.

'Qui non intelligit, aut taceat, aut discat'
The mind is like a parachute. It only works when it is open.-FZ
The industrial revolution, flipped a bitch on evolution.-NOFX
It takes all kinds to make a mess- Benjamin Hoff

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by mike the wiz, posted 11-23-2012 12:06 PM mike the wiz has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 11-23-2012 2:53 PM rueh has replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 28 of 722 (681166)
11-23-2012 12:49 PM
Reply to: Message 26 by mike the wiz
11-23-2012 12:06 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
mike the wiz writes:
You have no moral foundation. Your morals in picture form, are like balloons floating in your mind, when you go "pop" so do your morals.
Maybe, maybe not.
With nothing else to compare it to, though... what other possibility do we have?
Ultimately, there is no basis for right and wrong except what is beneficial to society, or the "majority" opinion, if there is no moral God.
So you say, but do not explain.
How does a moral God give us a basis for right and wrong?
Is following God's moral code actually being moral? Or is it simply "following orders" and not actually thinking about the decision at all?
What is God's morality, can we even know it?
Is it absolute? Objective? His whim?
What are the rules?
Are we simply robots if we do follow it?
If God just defines Himself as good, how can we actually know if He really is good?
If the answer is "have faith" then the answer for the question "Is God good?" is "I don't know... but have faith" as well.
A reasonable and logical answer (from the premise of God being good)... but it doesn't really help to explain anything at all. We are still left not knowing if God is good or not.
(This is my final thought, as one of my posts takes the effort of 20 USUAL posts. I hope you will consider and study what I have said, and google any terms I have mentioned, to test me.)
Please do not feel as if I'm trying to get you to reply, that is not my intention at all. I just like to think and talk about these things.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by mike the wiz, posted 11-23-2012 12:06 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Stile
Member
Posts: 4295
From: Ontario, Canada
Joined: 12-02-2004


(1)
Message 29 of 722 (681180)
11-23-2012 2:53 PM
Reply to: Message 27 by rueh
11-23-2012 12:33 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
rueh writes:
Care to give an example of how you can do evil without being evil yourself?
Would an accident count?
Someone trying to do what's right.. but innocently setting something off that ends up doing evil?
Maybe this requires a definition of "evil" in order to answer correctly. If "doing evil" includes an actual intent on causing negativity, then perhaps an accident would not suffice.
I took these teachings and applied them to my life and make my own moral judgments based upon them. Are they subjective. Of course they are they. That doesn't make them any less valid though.
Personally, I would argue that values we come up with ourselves are more valid than anything pronounced from someone else (even God Himself). This would be on a responsibility/honourable kind of level. Are you really "being moral" if you're just doing what God told you to do?
Following orders doesn't exactly sound like something I would look up to on a moral level.
If all God does is provide "orders," how can we tell if God is good or not?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 27 by rueh, posted 11-23-2012 12:33 PM rueh has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 30 by Phat, posted 11-23-2012 4:28 PM Stile has replied
 Message 32 by rueh, posted 11-23-2012 7:08 PM Stile has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


(1)
Message 30 of 722 (681196)
11-23-2012 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 29 by Stile
11-23-2012 2:53 PM


Re: Light and Darkness
Stile writes:
Personally, I would argue that values we come up with ourselves are more valid than anything pronounced from someone else (even God Himself).
I believe in communion. His Spirit being allowed to commune with our spirit. Any decisions are entirely ours...as the responsible party...but His influence helps to shape our decision. My point is that we cant make an informed (or complete) decision without knowing His heart/His conscience. This is what it means to have the mind of Christ.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 29 by Stile, posted 11-23-2012 2:53 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 33 by Tangle, posted 11-24-2012 5:28 AM Phat has replied
 Message 41 by Stile, posted 11-26-2012 9:16 AM Phat has not replied

  
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