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Author Topic:   We Evolved Pretty Quickly
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 16 of 46 (47091)
07-23-2003 1:52 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 1:36 PM


quote:
'So, 20,000 years, or even 200,000. Still way less than the dinosaurs.'
Yes well, there goes those nice time figures again.Hell why not add another billion years evo's!
No need to be so flippant, Mike. He's just throwing out numbers for the sake of discussion. If you want to question the concurrence of multiple independent dating methods for a particular piece of material, we could discuss that. In this case, it should be obvious that the point is unaffected by the exact numbers.

This message is a reply to:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 17 of 46 (47105)
07-23-2003 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 1:36 PM


Well, I was throwing out numbers to support a point made in jest about movies. Which is different than making up numbers to support a worldview informed by a mistranslated book, and expecting the scientific community to follow suit.
I was making a joke. But creationism IS a joke.

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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 18 of 46 (47126)
07-23-2003 6:11 PM
Reply to: Message 15 by mike the wiz
07-23-2003 1:36 PM


quote:
Yes well, there goes those nice time figures again.Hell why not add another billion years evo's!
Look, Mike, when you start doing a lot of reading and research and putting together careful, informed posts, THEN you might have earned the latitude to be sarcastic if someone makes a mistake.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 15 by mike the wiz, posted 07-23-2003 1:36 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 07-24-2003 9:04 PM nator has replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 19 of 46 (47127)
07-23-2003 6:20 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nator
07-23-2003 6:11 PM


when you start doing a lot of reading and research and putting together careful, informed posts,
On the other hand if any of that could describe me, I'd be very surprised.
I think we've gone terminally off-topic.

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truthlover
Member (Idle past 4059 days)
Posts: 1548
From: Selmer, TN
Joined: 02-12-2003


Message 20 of 46 (47132)
07-23-2003 7:21 PM
Reply to: Message 14 by crashfrog
07-23-2003 11:26 AM


They don't count because I'm a crappy historian.
Whew. That's great.
So, 20,000 years, or even 200,000. Still way less than the dinosaurs.
I agree.

This message is a reply to:
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mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 21 of 46 (47348)
07-24-2003 9:04 PM
Reply to: Message 18 by nator
07-23-2003 6:11 PM


'Look, Mike, when you start doing a lot of reading and research and putting together careful, informed posts, THEN you might have earned the latitude to be sarcastic '
Lighten up mom, it was a splash and dash.Crashfrog and I are always boxing. Do you know me Schraf, how do you know I research or not? .Oh righteouss one.lol.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by nator, posted 07-23-2003 6:11 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
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nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 22 of 46 (47357)
07-24-2003 10:39 PM
Reply to: Message 21 by mike the wiz
07-24-2003 9:04 PM


quote:
Lighten up mom, it was a splash and dash.Crashfrog and I are always boxing. Do you know me Schraf, how do you know I research or not? .Oh righteouss one.lol.
I can be lighter.
How do I know if you research or not?
If you do, you sure keep it a secret from all of us here.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 21 by mike the wiz, posted 07-24-2003 9:04 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 23 of 46 (47889)
07-29-2003 12:04 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Parasomnium
07-18-2003 6:57 AM


Re: we are very Rare Creatures
quote:
Now, if we are to believe Mr. Spielberg, at least one of the dinosaur species themselves was pretty high up on the list of smart things
Jurassic Park is based on the novel by Micheal Crichton -- and he
does do his researcha nd have access to various knowledgable
sources (or so he claims)

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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 24 of 46 (47890)
07-29-2003 12:05 PM
Reply to: Message 11 by Parasomnium
07-18-2003 6:57 AM


Re: we are very Rare Creatures
quote:
But again, you might also have meant to say that something conscious did not evolve. If so, you have a point, because consciousness (of the type we humans possess) is indeed unique in the animal kingdom, as far as I know
How exactly DO you know that?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 11 by Parasomnium, posted 07-18-2003 6:57 AM Parasomnium has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 25 by zephyr, posted 07-29-2003 1:02 PM Peter has replied
 Message 28 by Parasomnium, posted 07-30-2003 3:35 AM Peter has replied

  
zephyr
Member (Idle past 4550 days)
Posts: 821
From: FOB Taji, Iraq
Joined: 04-22-2003


Message 25 of 46 (47900)
07-29-2003 1:02 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Peter
07-29-2003 12:05 PM


Re: we are very Rare Creatures
quote:
How exactly DO you know that?
Yeah, I heard the insects are conscious but hiding it from us.
Seriously, though... it seems to be that there are degrees of consciousness, even among people, and one might argue that a few animals are further along the continuum than others. Look at the social structure of chimpanzees. Can each one be truly unconscious of its role in that system?

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 Message 24 by Peter, posted 07-29-2003 12:05 PM Peter has replied

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Dr_Tazimus_maximus
Member (Idle past 3217 days)
Posts: 402
From: Gaithersburg, MD, USA
Joined: 03-19-2002


Message 26 of 46 (47905)
07-29-2003 1:40 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by Peter
07-10-2003 9:17 AM


Traits and evolution
Hi Peter, the following quote caught my attention.
quote:
The preexisting traits that led to us were evolving for
millions of years prior to the 65million referred to as the
time to produce humans.
Actually I do not think that is 100% true. Yes, we and every other organism currently on the earth are the result of 3.5 to 3.8 By of evolution but that is not the same as specific traits being the result of the same time period of evolution. Substantial morphological or biochemical changes can lead to new traits which then lead to a whole new series of adaptations, and they may be fairly recent. A backbone for example, a closed circulatory system for another. Sex is one which has evolved several times. In my opinion, conciousness is likely to be one of those although I do think that it is part of a gradient and is therefor older than we are.
------------------
"Chance favors the prepared mind." L. Pasteur
Taz

This message is a reply to:
 Message 7 by Peter, posted 07-10-2003 9:17 AM Peter has replied

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Quetzal
Member (Idle past 5872 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 01-09-2002


Message 27 of 46 (47954)
07-30-2003 3:22 AM
Reply to: Message 13 by truthlover
07-23-2003 11:16 AM


Short Aside
Hi TL - I'm not going to dispute this until I know what reference you used (I'll open a new topic if you think it's worth discussing). However, you stated:
That's still a short time, but it's seems pretty objectionable to me to suggest that our meter wasn't running until some humans in the Middle East built a city and started destroying the world. It's possible we had villages in South America 60,000 years ago, and it's certain we had them there 20,000 years ago. Why don't those people count?
I understand your intent was to correct crashfrog, but I question the figures. Could you provide a reference?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 13 by truthlover, posted 07-23-2003 11:16 AM truthlover has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by truthlover, posted 07-30-2003 3:26 PM Quetzal has replied

  
Parasomnium
Member
Posts: 2224
Joined: 07-15-2003


Message 28 of 46 (47956)
07-30-2003 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 24 by Peter
07-29-2003 12:05 PM


Re: we are very Rare Creatures
How do I know consciousness (of the type we humans possess) is indeed unique in the animal kingdom?
First of all, I said "as far as I know", meaning I'm not sure. Secondly, if there were other beings on this planet with our type of consciousness, we would have had coffee with them or something. Or an all out war. In any case, we would have met them.
Cheers.
[This message has been edited by Parasomnium, 07-30-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Peter, posted 07-29-2003 12:05 PM Peter has replied

Replies to this message:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 29 of 46 (47959)
07-30-2003 3:58 AM
Reply to: Message 28 by Parasomnium
07-30-2003 3:35 AM


Re: we are very Rare Creatures
That was why I said 'How do you know' ... becuase
you said 'as far as I know'.
Your answer tells me that you are guessing rather than
basing your supposition on any particular data/research findings
etc.
How do you know that chimpanzees aren't conscious in the
same sense that we are? Or lions and tigers and bears, oh my...
What is the measure of consciousness, or the method for
detecting it or ... hopefully you see what I am asking now.

This message is a reply to:
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Peter
Member (Idle past 1479 days)
Posts: 2161
From: Cambridgeshire, UK.
Joined: 02-05-2002


Message 30 of 46 (47963)
07-30-2003 4:03 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by Dr_Tazimus_maximus
07-29-2003 1:40 PM


Re: Traits and evolution
quote:
Substantial morphological or biochemical changes can lead to new traits which then lead to a whole new series of adaptations
What I meant (rather than individual traits per se) was that
extant traits are founded on traits that preceded them.
To say that the latest model of car is 'new' neglects the fact
that without the Model-T it wouldn't exist in its current form.
Evolution is a process of change and (very loosely speaking)
refinement over time. It reminds me of Newton's 'If I have
seen farther it is because I have stood on the shoulders
of giants.'
In specific reference to consciousness we cannot know that
dinosaurs (for example) were not conscious ... unless one comes up and
asks us to tea of course.
[This message has been edited by Peter, 07-30-2003]

This message is a reply to:
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