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Author
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Topic: Why is Faith a Virtue?
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4696 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Message 226 of 294 (335512)
07-26-2006 4:18 PM
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Reply to: Message 225 by Faith
07-26-2006 3:47 PM
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Re: What witnesses?
That is the source I cited as he is available on the internet. He sites other better known scholars like Burton Mack. Here is another citation though Helms is not a mythicist: Who wrote the Gospels? by Randel McGraw Helms The critical historical approach to religious texts is a very significant developement in scholarship though it exposes flaws in earlier beliefs. Christianity was compiled in the early centuries and then edit to read back smoothly, that is until it's examined critically and then the seams show up. Doherty makes some very insightful criticisms of your position.
By contrast, look at the Acts of the Apostles, which a number of critical scholars (John Knox, J. T. Townsend, Burton Mack, J. C. O'Neill) judge was written well into the second century. (See Reader Feedback Set 17.) In chapter 2, Peter is represented as speaking to the Jews like this: "Men of Israel, hear my words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God..." And he goes on to preach about this Jesus, whom "God has made both Lord and Christ." Here is the equation missing in the first century epistles. It starts with the human Jesus and declares him to have been divine or made divine. Paul and other early writers, however, seem to speak solely of a divine Christ. He is the starting point, a kind of given, and is never identified with a recent human being. Spiritual beliefs are stated about this divine Christ and Son of God. Paul believes in a Son of God, not that anyone was the Son of God. http://pages.ca.inter.net/~oblio/partone.htm
To give one small example of the many that Doherty lists:
Even Paul, this man so emotional, so full of insecurities, who declares (Philippians 3:10) that "all I care for is to know Christ, to experience the power of his resurrection, to share in his sufferings," even he seems immune to the lure of such places. Three years were to pass following his conversion before he made even a short visit to Jerusalem. And this”so he tells us in Galatians”was merely to "get to know" Peter; he was not to return there for another 14 years. Is it conceivable that Paul would not have wanted to run to the hill of Calvary, to prostrate himself on the sacred ground that bore the blood of his slain Lord? Surely he would have shared such an intense emotional experience with his readers. Would he not have been drawn to the Gethsemane garden, where Jesus was reported to have passed through the horror and the self-doubts that Paul himself had known? Would he not have gloried in standing before the empty tomb, the guarantee of his own resurrection? Is there indeed, in this wide land so recently filled with the presence of the Son of God, any holy place at all, any spot of ground where that presence still lingers, hallowed by the step, touch or word of Jesus of Nazareth? Neither Paul nor any other first century letter writer breathes a whisper of any such thing. The church's story doesn't add up though it provides what is needed for faith, just as do the Koran, The Book of Mormon, The Torah, and etc. lfen
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 225 by Faith, posted 07-26-2006 3:47 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 227 by Faith, posted 07-26-2006 4:21 PM | | lfen has not replied |
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 227 of 294 (335513)
07-26-2006 4:21 PM
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Reply to: Message 226 by lfen
07-26-2006 4:18 PM
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Re: What witnesses?
. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 226 by lfen, posted 07-26-2006 4:18 PM | | lfen has not replied |
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lfen
Member (Idle past 4696 days) Posts: 2189 From: Oregon Joined: 06-24-2004
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Message 228 of 294 (335520)
07-26-2006 4:42 PM
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Reply to: Message 221 by iano
07-26-2006 12:07 PM
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Re: Full Circle
So it seems that Gods revealing of himself in unbidden fashion leaves a man no choice but to go insane. Perhaps thats why God doesn't do it. He wants that "none should perish" not a bunch of lunatics Like this?
Sri Ramakrishna was sitting all alone. He was very pleased to receive Narendranath and called him near his tiny bedstead. Sri Ramakrishna went into a divine mood and slowly approaching Narendra in a peculiar way touched his right foot to Narendra's body. Immediately Narendra had a wonderful experience, which is given in his own words, "I saw with my eyes open that all the things of the room together with the walls were rapidly whirling and receding into an unknown region, and my I-ness together with the whole universe was, as it were, going to vanish in an all devouring great void. I was then overwhelmed with terrible fear. I knew that the destruction of I-ness was death, so I thought that death was before me, very near at hand. Unable to control myself, I cried out loudly, saying, 'Ah! What is it you have done to me? I have my parents, you know.'" Laughing loudly at his words, Sri Ramakrishna touched Narendra's chest with his hand and said, "Let it then cease now. It need not be done all at once. It will come to pass in course of time." Swami Vivekananda was amazed to notice how that extraordinary experience vanished as quickly as it had come! He came to normal state and saw things inside and outside the room standing still as before. http://www.boloji.com/people/03002.htm
or like this?
I heard Maharshi say, "He is concentrating on the reflection and complains that he cannot see the original." It struck me forcefully. What did he mean by reflection and what was the original? I shut my eyes and tried to find out the meaning. Immediately after, I felt a pull in the region of the heart, similar to what I felt two days previously but much stronger in intensity. My mind was completely arrested -- stilled, but I was wide awake. Suddenly, without any break in my consciousness, the "I" flashed forth! It was self-awareness, pure and simple, steady, unbroken and intensely bright, as much brighter than ordinary consciousness as is sunlight brighter than the dim light of a lamp. In ordinary consciousness the "I"-sense dimly remains in the background -- as a matter of inference or intuition -- the whole of the consciousness being occupied by the object. Here, "I" came to the foreground, occupied, or rather became, the whole consciousness, and intensely existed as pure consciousness, displacing all objects. I was, but I was neither the subject nor the object of this consciousness. I WAS this consciousness, which alone existed. There were no objects. The world was not, neither the body nor the mind -- no thought, no motion; time also ceased to exist. I alone existed and that I was consciousness itself, self-luminous and alone, without a second... Suddenly, and again without any break in my consciousness, I was brought back to my normal, ordinary consciousness. The I Flashed Forth
Now if God reveals himself, unbidden and in a direct way to a person then they cannot choose to believe he doesn't exist in precisely the way that he does. There would be no possibiliy to misconstrue who he is. No possibility to arrive at a god in own image and likeness (say like the Jews did). Similarily a person could no longer be an atheist. Nor a Hindu, Buddist or the like. Nor agnostic. At least not without having a full frontal lobotomy. Choice to disbelieve evaporates. They wouldn't be a Christian either, they wouldn't be anything they thought they were. This is awakening, the realization of the illusion of the ego leaves What Is no longer ignored by consciousness. lfen
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by iano, posted 07-26-2006 12:07 PM | | iano has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 229 of 294 (335640)
07-27-2006 5:55 AM
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Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
07-26-2006 3:55 AM
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Re: "Hearsay"
. Edited by schrafinator, : double post, sorry
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 214 by Faith, posted 07-26-2006 3:55 AM | | Faith has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 230 of 294 (335641)
07-27-2006 5:56 AM
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Reply to: Message 214 by Faith
07-26-2006 3:55 AM
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Re: "Hearsay"
quote:
But the White House denies it.
The white House has denied a great many things that have later turned out to be true. They have also positively claimed many things that have later turned out to not be true. Remember, by their own admission the NeoCons do not live in the "reality-based community". They invent their own reality that may or may not jibe with what is actually happening.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 214 by Faith, posted 07-26-2006 3:55 AM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 235 by Faith, posted 07-27-2006 1:49 PM | | nator has not replied | | | Message 236 by Faith, posted 07-27-2006 1:52 PM | | nator has not replied |
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nator
Member (Idle past 2188 days) Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: 12-09-2001
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Message 231 of 294 (335642)
07-27-2006 5:59 AM
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Reply to: Message 215 by iano
07-26-2006 4:54 AM
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Re: Full Circle
quote:
I mean 'it all' 'the whole show' 'the way it is'. The world, your life, your place in it. Accident and chance provides sufficient for you?
Sure. Why is that inherently bad or disappointing?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 215 by iano, posted 07-26-2006 4:54 AM | | iano has not replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5009 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 232 of 294 (335667)
07-27-2006 8:08 AM
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Reply to: Message 221 by iano
07-26-2006 12:07 PM
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Re: Full Circle
Ian, any response to message 216?
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 221 by iano, posted 07-26-2006 12:07 PM | | iano has not replied |
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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 233 of 294 (335673)
07-27-2006 8:35 AM
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Reply to: Message 216 by RickJB
07-26-2006 5:42 AM
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Re: Full Circle
Yup. You don't know where life came from. For where it comes from is very relevant to the case for/against God. You have no basis to believe it arose from non-life. Yet presumably you beleive it arose from non-life. If one is satisfied with no answers to things then I suppose your 'yup' is consistant with that. Fair enough.
I simply don't look for evidence. I'm simply not interested in "finding" God. Even if God DOES exist, I'm not interested in living my life for him You are not interested in the case but have a view on what he is like which you use not to be interested in the case. Fair enough.
"You sacrificed an avatar of yourself and brought it back to life 2000 years ago. What DOES that do for me? If you are referring to the entirity of creation, then well done, but again, why do you need me worship you? Isn't my respect enough?" "It wasn't an avatar - it was my son. Do you have kids Rick (although I already know the answer). 'It' didn't do anything for you yet. It made it possible to do something for you. To save you from the consequences of your sin. Do you know what the consequences of your sin are Rick? Well no, I suppose you don't. But if I were to save you then you would see what the consequence would have been. And you would very likely worship me (be eternally thankful). Now I don't need your thanks. I'm God - I don't need anything. Your thanks will be yours - from you to me. And I didn't make this available for your thanks - I made it available because I love you. My love for you doesn't want you to perish and my wrath against sin will punish your sin. I've found a way around the problem which satisfies who I am (love and wrath). Now, you don't have to worship me if you don't want. Nor follow my law for the rest of your life. But the thing is Rick - part of the process of saving you means that I have to come and live within you in order to prepare you for heaven. You are going there for sure but you are not fit for it yet. You need to be cleansed of that sinful tendency that Adam infected you with. For nothing impure can enter heaven (can you imagine what it would be like with sin there? Blissful existance you me and all the rest of the family with sin around - c'est ne possible pas!) And the consequences of me coming to live within you mean that you will not want to sin (even though you will). And you will want to worship me. You will will want that. Simply because you recognise who I am. I'm pretty mind-boggling Rick - you won't be able to help loving me - for I'll shower you with so much love your feet won't touch the ground. Ever been in love Rick. Well that ain't nothing compared to what I've got in store for you. As long as you do not reject my effort to save you."
"Well I'm not interested." "Of course your not - your not saved. You hate me at the moment. Of course worship is the furthest thing from your mind. You can't thank someone for something you have not recieved - that would be irrational"
"How very convenient... Still not interested. What happens now?" "Well, I'll call and continue to do so until such time as I stop. then you will die and we'll meet again. I know the outcome of that meeting already. You don't. See you then (or God willing.. before then)"
A good father doesn't seek to control his son with veiled threats. Your not his son. Your his enemy. At the moment (Biblically), Satan is your father. You get adopted as a son when you are saved. And God doesn't 'control' sons with veiled threats. They look to him and seek to obey him because they love him. Sure they disobey at times and they know he will discipline them (that is not a veiled threat - its a stated fact, just like most fathers apply). But discipline is a good thing in fact.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 216 by RickJB, posted 07-26-2006 5:42 AM | | RickJB has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 234 by RickJB, posted 07-27-2006 10:41 AM | | iano has not replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5009 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 234 of 294 (335693)
07-27-2006 10:41 AM
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Reply to: Message 233 by iano
07-27-2006 8:35 AM
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Re: Full Circle
iano writes: You don't know where life came from. As far a science can tell life arises from nature, from the universe around us. Of course, I don't pretend to have all the answers. No one does. There are many more things for humanity yet to discover in this life.
iano writes: You need to be cleansed of that sinful tendency that Adam infected you with. "I'd rather partake of life in all its complexity than live the life of a naive, cosseted child."
iano (as God) writes: "I'll shower you with so much love your feet won't touch the ground." "Saw something like that in a porn film once. No thanks."
iano (as God) writes: "You hate me at the moment..." "Not at all. I've never met you before! I just don't see why I should concern myself with your opinion. Nor do I see why you should be concerned about me." --------------- Thing is Iano, I as an agnostic I really don't waste my time getting worked up about the possibility of God existing. What puzzles me most is why God wastes his time "talking" to us through religion? Why does God expect our reverence? Why did Adam have to "fall"? Why must there be a judgement? Religion has almost nothing to do with God and everything to do with humans seeking to control one another whilst they live. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given. Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 233 by iano, posted 07-27-2006 8:35 AM | | iano has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 235 of 294 (335756)
07-27-2006 1:49 PM
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Reply to: Message 230 by nator
07-27-2006 5:56 AM
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Re: "Hearsay"
The San Francisco link gives more detail. Bush did not say God told him to invade Iraq, but did say something much more general, about how he is guided by God, which all Christians ought to be able to say about anything we do. That would give some credence to both sides of the dispute, and make it clear he was not claiming some direct order from God, which is what he is usually accused of. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 230 by nator, posted 07-27-2006 5:56 AM | | nator has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 236 of 294 (335757)
07-27-2006 1:52 PM
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Reply to: Message 230 by nator
07-27-2006 5:56 AM
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Re: "Hearsay"
I have no idea what you are talking about when you say neo cons invent their own reality. Sounds like a smear to me. Nonsense. And I'd also point out that only the British press reported that Bush said God told him to invade Iraq. I didn't find any American press reports of that, which strongly suggests it's not true.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 230 by nator, posted 07-27-2006 5:56 AM | | nator has not replied |
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RickJB
Member (Idle past 5009 days) Posts: 917 From: London, UK Joined: 04-14-2006
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Message 237 of 294 (335759)
07-27-2006 2:03 PM
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Reply to: Message 236 by Faith
07-27-2006 1:52 PM
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Re: "Hearsay"
Comes from an article by Ron Suskind in the NYT Magazine in 2004. Reality-based community - Wikipedia Make of it what you will... Edited by RickJB, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 236 by Faith, posted 07-27-2006 1:52 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 238 by Faith, posted 07-27-2006 2:13 PM | | RickJB has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 238 of 294 (335760)
07-27-2006 2:13 PM
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Reply to: Message 237 by RickJB
07-27-2006 2:03 PM
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Re: "Hearsay"
Thanks for the information. Strictly a bit of Leftist political correctness.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 237 by RickJB, posted 07-27-2006 2:03 PM | | RickJB has not replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 261 by nator, posted 07-27-2006 7:24 PM | | Faith has not replied |
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Faith
Suspended Member (Idle past 1463 days) Posts: 35298 From: Nevada, USA Joined: 10-06-2001
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Message 239 of 294 (335761)
07-27-2006 2:15 PM
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BACK TO TOPIC, WHY IS FAITH A VIRTUE?
Sorry we've been getting so far off track, but where did you go, Chief Infidel? I may not have anything more to say about why faith is a virtue, but it's your thread and maybe you can still get something out of the topic before it comes to an end. Edited by Faith, : No reason given. Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
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iano
Member (Idle past 1959 days) Posts: 6165 From: Co. Wicklow, Ireland. Joined: 07-27-2005
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Message 240 of 294 (335772)
07-27-2006 2:54 PM
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Reply to: Message 239 by Faith
07-27-2006 2:15 PM
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Re: BACK TO TOPIC, WHY IS FAITH A VIRTUE?
BACK TO TOPIC, WHY IS FAITH A VIRTUE? This is an admins task sis. Not some commoner garden posters... PS: Light of my life...where'd the candle go? Edited by iano, : No reason given. Edited by iano, : No reason given.
| This message is a reply to: | | | Message 239 by Faith, posted 07-27-2006 2:15 PM | | Faith has replied |
| Replies to this message: | | | Message 243 by Faith, posted 07-27-2006 3:52 PM | | iano has not replied |
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