Register | Sign In


Understanding through Discussion


EvC Forum active members: 65 (9162 total)
2 online now:
Newest Member: popoi
Post Volume: Total: 915,815 Year: 3,072/9,624 Month: 917/1,588 Week: 100/223 Day: 11/17 Hour: 0/0


Thread  Details

Email This Thread
Newer Topic | Older Topic
  
Author Topic:   Sequel Thread To Holistic Doctors, and medicine
Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 106 of 307 (425386)
10-02-2007 3:05 AM
Reply to: Message 102 by pink sasquatch
10-01-2007 6:37 PM


Re: to LindaLou on anonymous internet advice...
I would respectfully ask you to take a moment to read my other posts here PS. Most recently, I said I wanted to finish with this topic and go talk in others, because I was spending hours on this one.
I just wanted to address a few of your points though. People pick up on my enthusiasm for CAM and like to caricature me as a crusader who advocates potentially dangerous practices regardless of risk factors. Let me clarify my position a bit more. What I am interested in is people not suffering, and getting well. That is what I care about. Not, "CAM at all costs." If you choose to take a completely drug-centered approach to your illness, I am not going to belittle you and I truly hope you find the help you are looking for. But I also want to inform people that there are other choices they can make. I am aware of the opinions held by most people here, but not everyone shares those.
Look at Buzsaw's regime. It is a sensible regime for anyone wanting to prevent themselves from developing disease. Prevent. It is not a prescription for how to cure any specific disease. I do know a number of things that a person can look into to find the root cause of their depression. I do not know as much about other illnesses. In all cases I would advise a person to see a naturopath. I wouldn't trust one who wasn't also an MD. There are many MDs who have expertise in nutritional and environmental medicine. No one with an MD to their name should be telling someone to take a supplement that will interfere with other drugs, or to cease antipsychotics for a handful of omega-3s. The cures are much more complicated than that. Linus Pauling himself was using vitamin C as an adjunct to traditional cancer treatments, not as a stand-alone treatment, though there are naturopathic treatments one can choose to follow to eliminate cancer. Again, these should be overseen by a suitably qualified ND if this is the route the patient chooses.
One major way it can cause harm is when people replace necessary traditional intervention with a multivitamin, or supplement traditional medicine with naturopathy with unexpected and unknown epistatic or synergistic effect.
I'm guessing that you don't know what vitamins or supplements are capable of doing, correctly used. You are assuming that they're going to be prescribed inappropriately. When it's something as serious as cancer, then like I said I would tell someone to see a naturopathic MD. It's not something you want to be experimenting with yourself. If it's something like the common cold, or a skin rash, or feeling tired all the time, I can't see any reason why someone shouldn't clean up their diet, take some good nutritional supplements, and monitor what happens. You and most others here might choose not to do that and that of course is up to you. You think my approach is illogical and unscientific. I'm not going to change your minds. However I did want to clarify my position here. I would not advocate a procedure that is likely to cause harm to someone.
Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.
Edited by LindaLou, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by pink sasquatch, posted 10-01-2007 6:37 PM pink sasquatch has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 107 of 307 (425397)
10-02-2007 7:11 AM
Reply to: Message 105 by molbiogirl
10-01-2007 10:21 PM


Acupuncture Merging Mainstream
From what I read of the article "Acupuncture: Theory, Efficacy, and Practice", I don't see that it gives the idea that acupuncture isn't moving into the mainstream. Quite the contrary.
Numerous surveys show that, of all the complementary
medical systems, acupuncture enjoys the most credibility
in the medical community (77).
The training and provision of acupuncture care in the United States are rapidly expanding.
The number of acupuncturists is rapidly growing
and is projected to double by 2005 and quadruple by
2015 (107).
There are approximately 3000 acupuncturists
with medical degrees practicing in the United States.
Conclusion
In a short time, acupuncture has been transported
to the West and become a visible component of the
health delivery system. Its traditional conceptual framework
is radically distinct from biomedicine. Research on
acupuncture has allowed a consensus to emerge that this
therapy may have efficacy, regardless of the “prescientific”
perspective of its underlying conceptual framework.
As an independent profession, acupuncture and
East Asian medicine are growing exponentially.
The fact that hospitals are offering acupuncture and insurance will cover it in some states shows that it indeed seems to be creeping into the mainstream. Whether it merges completely, only time will tell.
Massachusetts General Hospital Pain Center
Johns Hopkins Medicine
Wisconsin, Massachusetts Hospitals Offer Acupuncture
California Adds Acupuncture to Workers' Comp Treatment Guidelines
As of June 15, 2007, workers injured on the job can receive acupuncture treatment as part of their compensation. This means claims for acupuncture treatment for such patients can no longer be denied by insurance companies based solely on efficacy.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by molbiogirl, posted 10-01-2007 10:21 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 108 by molbiogirl, posted 10-02-2007 10:13 AM purpledawn has not replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 108 of 307 (425432)
10-02-2007 10:13 AM
Reply to: Message 107 by purpledawn
10-02-2007 7:11 AM


Re: Acupuncture Merging Mainstream
Whether it merges completely, only time will tell.
No. What will "tell" is acupuncture's efficacy.
A medical treatment doesn't move into the "mainstream" unless it's effective.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 107 by purpledawn, posted 10-02-2007 7:11 AM purpledawn has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 109 by Kitsune, posted 10-02-2007 10:34 AM molbiogirl has not replied

Kitsune
Member (Idle past 4300 days)
Posts: 788
From: Leicester, UK
Joined: 09-16-2007


Message 109 of 307 (425438)
10-02-2007 10:34 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by molbiogirl
10-02-2007 10:13 AM


Re: Acupuncture Merging Mainstream
I can get acupuncture from my GP on the NHS here if I want. She offered it to me once but I declined at the time.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by molbiogirl, posted 10-02-2007 10:13 AM molbiogirl has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 110 of 307 (425499)
10-02-2007 2:23 PM


Layman's Summary
What we have so far.
We are not to put any stock in the testimonies of others. Those aren't proof and they can cover both sides of the issue.
We are to stick with medical doctors who have gone through rigorous training in all the science based medicine backed by double-blind studies and the FDA stamp of approval.
We are not to turn to CAM practitioners because they have not had the above mentioned training.
We also are not to listen to MD's who have gone through the above training, but chose to prescribe or are trained in CAM treatments because by doing so they apparently have had a brain fart and forgotten all that wonderful training.
We are to look at studies, but studies also cover both sides of the issue.
We are to check our MD's credentials, but again even a Harvard graduate who leans towards the natural loses credibility.
Even the use of CAM in a premier medical institution such as Johns Hopkins adds no credibility.
If what our mainstream MD prescribes doesn't work we should look for another mainstream MD,
If our ND prescribes a natural solution and it works, it was probably just our imagination and we wasted our money. Even though we would have also wasted money on the mainstream treatments that didn't work.
So in the trenches we are left with going with where our comfort lies and what works for us individually.
We weigh the risks based on our knowledge, experience, and sometimes gut feelings.
It may not be scientific, but we don't always have that luxury and from what we have viewed in these two threads; the science doesn't always give a concrete answer.
In reality, it comes down to feeling better; not winning a point.

Replies to this message:
 Message 111 by molbiogirl, posted 10-02-2007 7:20 PM purpledawn has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 111 of 307 (425574)
10-02-2007 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 110 by purpledawn
10-02-2007 2:23 PM


Re: Layman's Summary
In reality, it comes down to feeling better; not winning a point.
Horse feathers.
Anaesthesia. 2004 Feb;59(2):142-9.
Acupuncture compared to placebo-acupuncture for postoperative nausea and vomiting prophylaxis: a randomised placebo-controlled patient and observer blind trial.
In 2004, a University of Heidelberg team proved the worth of their "sham acupuncture" technique in a study of postoperative nausea and vomiting (PONV) in women who underwent breast or gynecologic surgery. The study involved 220 women who received either acupuncture or the sham procedure at the acupuncture point "Pericardium 6" on the inside of the forearm. No significant difference in PONV or antivomiting medication use was found between the two groups or between the people who received treatment before anesthesia was induced and those who received it while anesthetized.
Adverse effects of acupuncture.
Lancet 345:1576, 1995.
A survey of 1,135 Norwegian physicians revealed 66 cases of infection, 25 cases of punctured lung, 31 cases of increased pain, and 80 other cases with complications.
Acupuncture, and the rest of this nonsense, is not some benign presence we can ignore.
There are serious questions that have to be answered.
Even the use of CAM in a premier medical institution such as Johns Hopkins adds no credibility.
CAM is not "being used" at Johns Hopkins.
CAM is being researched.
Acupuncture, for example, is available only in clinical trials re: cancer and PONV.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by purpledawn, posted 10-02-2007 2:23 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2007 8:20 AM molbiogirl has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 112 of 307 (425621)
10-03-2007 8:20 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by molbiogirl
10-02-2007 7:20 PM


Re: Layman's Summary
As you said in Message 103:
For every study that shows "something", there is another study that shows "nothing".
And vice versa. Dueling studies don't give us a concrete answer. The average person can only take the information, good and bad, gleaned from studies that seem to fit their need to make their decision.
quote:
CAM is not "being used" at Johns Hopkins.
And yet the link I provided in Message 110 would lead the average person to see otherwise. It is an option available to their patients.
Referral for Acupuncture Treatment
Currently, only Johns Hopkins cancer patients are eligible in acupuncture program at Johns Hopkins Hospital (unless you are in a research study). A written referral from your physician is required.
Yes, they are researching CAM, but it also seems to be available to cancer patients who aren't part of a study.
Acupuncture, Actually
As it turns out, Johns Hopkins is coming late to the party. Acupuncture is already a fait accompli at many peer institutions”Mayo Clinic, Duke, Stanford, UCLA and at least a dozen others included.
Can we trust the results of the studies done by these premier hospitals? The average person is lead to believe they can.
Mayo Clinic
Acupuncture could fill a gap in available therapies for the disease as something additive to what medications already can provide, says Dr. Martin. "There's not a cure available, so patients are often left somewhat frustrated by continuing pain and fatigue," he says. "Acupuncture is one of the few things shown to be effective for these symptoms. It may be particularly attractive to patients who are unable to take medications because of intolerable side effects."
The dilemma for the average person in this debate is that people who are supposed to have the knowledge don't always agree. History has shown us that this is not unusual.
So when we are told or it is implied that medical doctors or scientists who go against the mainstream have just gone stupid (or something to that effect), our trust in those who are supposed to have the knowledge becomes shaky. Then we are left to our own devices. That's why we turn to personal testimony. We do realize that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work or work the same for another. Personal testimony, especially from someone we trust, is closer to home.
So while it isn't a perfect method, we take what we glean from dueling studies, "experts", and personal testimony tempered with our own individual knowledge and experiences.
Unfortunately, this debate hasn't shown me a better method for the average person.
Studies can help to see through selling techniques, but studies don't always address the naturopathic ideas, which deal with giving the body what it needs to heal itself.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by molbiogirl, posted 10-02-2007 7:20 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by molbiogirl, posted 10-03-2007 5:19 PM purpledawn has replied
 Message 114 by nator, posted 10-03-2007 6:07 PM purpledawn has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 113 of 307 (425671)
10-03-2007 5:19 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by purpledawn
10-03-2007 8:20 AM


Acupuncture and Johns Hopkins
Yes, they are researching CAM, but it also seems to be available to cancer patients who aren't part of a study.
Clinical Services
Through a center grant sponsored by the NIH's National Center for Complementary and Alternative Medicine, prominent Johns Hopkins physicians and researchers can study a plethora of CAM modalities. Visit our links to ongoing studies, education and training, and special announcements about upcoming seminars and pilot funding.
For Acupuncture and CAM Research, please contact:
Sanghoon Lee, KMD, PhD, LAc
Phone: 410-502-2466 / Fax: 410-502-3624
Email: slee204@jhmi.edu
Sure looks like research to me.
I've just placed a call to Dr. Lee at Johns Hopkins.
When he calls me back, I'll let you know what he says.
And vice versa. Dueling studies don't give us a concrete answer. The average person can only take the information, good and bad, gleaned from studies that seem to fit their need to make their decision.
You're ignoring a critical piece of the puzzle.
The OVERWHELMING majority of studies find acupuncture no more effective than placebo.
That makes the decision a helluva lot easier.
Can we trust the results of the studies done by these premier hospitals?
Well, I would agree that we can trust their research.
Problem is, PD, the majority of the studies coming out of these institutions do not support acupuncture's claims.
I won't include a list of the relevant studies (I know how much you hate those!).
mayoclinic.com writes:
* Red flag words. The advertisements or promotional materials usually include words such as "satisfaction guaranteed," "miracle cure" or "new discovery." If the product were in fact a cure, it would be widely reported in the media and your doctor would recommend it.
* Pseudomedical jargon. Though terms such as "purify," "detoxify" and "energize" may sound impressive and may even have an element of truth, they're generally used to cover up a lack of scientific proof. Watch out for these words.
* Cure-alls. The manufacturer claims that the product can treat a wide range of symptoms, or cure or prevent a number of diseases. No single product can do all this.
* Anecdotal evidence. Testimonials are no substitute for solid scientific documentation. If the product is scientifically sound, the manufacturer will promote the scientific evidence. If you have to search all over the Web site for this evidence or you can't find any evidence at all to back up the manufacturer's claims, be wary of the information.
* False accusations. The manufacturer of the product accuses the government or a medical profession of suppressing important information about the product's benefits. Neither the government nor any medical profession has any reason to withhold information that could help people.
In the past 2 weeks, each of these "red flags" has popped up in this thread.
So when we are told or it is implied that medical doctors or scientists who go against the mainstream have just gone stupid (or something to that effect), our trust in those who are supposed to have the knowledge becomes shaky.
You've made this assertion several times.
Let's take Dr. Pauling as an example.
Dr. Pauling's work continued until his death in 1994.
Analysis of a hyperdeformed band of 152(66)Dy86 on the basis of a structure with two revolving clusters, each with a previously unrecognized two-tiered structure.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1994 Feb 1;91(3):897-9.
This work was published in a premier journal, The Procedures of the National Academy of Sciences.
It stood up to scrutiny.
Most of Dr. Pauling's work on vitamin C (the reason Dr. Pauling's credibility is called into question), however, was published in the research equivalent of a zine.
A proposition: megadoses of vitamin C are valuable in the treatment of cancer.
Nutr Rev. 1986 Jan;44(1):28-32.
The vitamin C studies that were published in recognized journals were only tangentially related to his megadoes vitamin C claims.
Criteria for the validity of clinical trials of treatments of cohorts of cancer patients based on the Hardin Jones principle.
Proc Natl Acad Sci U S A. 1989 Sep;86(18):6835-7.
Ask yourself this question: Dr. Pauling's peers felt his work was worth publishing. So why did they "censor" (not publish) most of his vitamin C papers (and only his vitamin C papers)?
Unless one is a Conspiracy Theorist Extraordinaire, the answer is obvious.
The dilemma for the average person in this debate is that people who are supposed to have the knowledge don't always agree.
It's not surprising that the "average person" is confused. From what I've seen in this thread, the "average person" visits alterna-sites loaded with pseudoscience.
Anyone truly interested in the story of vitamin C megadoses (or acupuncture or any other hinky "treatment") can easily look up the relevant literature.
Pubmed isn't a secret, you know.
Even a cursory examination of the evidence reveals the scientific consensus (no support for any of the above).
That's why we turn to personal testimony. We do realize that what works for one person doesn't necessarily work or work the same for another. Personal testimony, especially from someone we trust, is closer to home.
No. Folks who turn to anecdotal "evidence" don't realize that "what works for one person doesn't necessarily work for another".
Lindalou and Buz are prime examples.
Studies can help to see through selling techniques, but studies don't always address the naturopathic ideas, which deal with giving the body what it needs to heal itself.
There's a damn good reason "naturopathic" ideas aren't addressed in the literature.
Naturopathy is bullshit.
Complementary and alternative medical treatment of breast cancer: a survey of licensed North American naturopathic physicians.
Altern Ther Health Med. 2002 Sep-Oct;8(5):68-70; 72-5.
The most common general CAM therapies used were dietary counseling (94%), botanical medicines (88%), antioxidants (84%), and supplemental nutrition (84%). The most common specific treatments were vitamin C (39%), coenzyme Q-10 (34%), and Hoxsey formula (29%).
HOXSEY???
1/3 of these unfortunate souls got HOXSEY???
This is why we can't adopt a "live and let live" attitude re: naturopathic quacks.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2007 8:20 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2007 6:32 PM molbiogirl has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 114 of 307 (425679)
10-03-2007 6:07 PM
Reply to: Message 112 by purpledawn
10-03-2007 8:20 AM


Re: Layman's Summary
quote:
Studies can help to see through selling techniques, but studies don't always address the naturopathic ideas, which deal with giving the body what it needs to heal itself.
One of Naturopathy's central themes is the idea of the "vital force", a mystical energy force described by Canadian Naturopath Dr. Andrea Hornyak N.D thusly:
Vital Force refers to the life energy within all of us. It is an innate intelligence that is not entirely physical or spiritual. As there is order to the universe based on energy, so must our internal order or Vital Force energy be in balance. When it is not, disease results and symptoms develop. Symptoms of disease are an outer expression of our inner disrupted Vital Force . These symptoms are helpful clues to which areas of our body need attention. The body has the ability to heal itself and this knowledge is within all of our cells.
Let us not also forget that Naturopathy reularly uses Homeopathy, a thoroughly debunked, utterly quack idea.
Tell us again why Naturopathy should be given any credence whatsoever. Please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 112 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2007 8:20 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2007 7:15 PM nator has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 115 of 307 (425682)
10-03-2007 6:32 PM
Reply to: Message 113 by molbiogirl
10-03-2007 5:19 PM


Health
As I said before I'm not arguing the effectiveness of acupuncture. Message 100
quote:
I won't include a list of the relevant studies (I know how much you hate those!).
You've missed that point also. It isn't the studies we dislike, it is the lack of links to the studies and lack of explanation as to how the study supports your position.
quote:
In the past 2 weeks, each of these "red flags" has popped up in this thread.
As I said: Studies can help to see through selling techniques...
quote:
Naturopathy is bullshit.
Yea, that helps. I'm not sure why you are adverse to the idea of giving the body what it needs to heal itself. I'm talking about the concept not the quacks or advertising.
No one has really showed that the concept is bad. Again, not talking about those trying to sell.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by molbiogirl, posted 10-03-2007 5:19 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 117 by molbiogirl, posted 10-03-2007 7:19 PM purpledawn has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 116 of 307 (425692)
10-03-2007 7:15 PM
Reply to: Message 114 by nator
10-03-2007 6:07 PM


Naturopathic
quote:
One of Naturopathy's central themes is the idea of the "vital force", a mystical energy force described by Canadian Naturopath Dr. Andrea Hornyak N.D thusly:
Fortunately we are going to disagree on that. The ND's I have dealt with focus on prevention and helping the body heal itself. No mention of vital force. As pointed out before, Naturopaths that are licensed are licensed as independent practitioners. Just as independent MD's have different philosophies in their practices, so do naturopaths. As I've said before: I have no intention of taking up the cause for every naturopath or naturopathic site.
Again I don't use homeopathy. Just like I can tell my MD I don't want surgery, I tell an ND I'm not interested in homeopathy.
quote:
Tell us again why Naturopathy should be given any credence whatsoever.
Because the concept is good, IMO.
Again I don't feel it is an all or nothing proposition. I use what I need from my MD and I use what I need from my ND.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by nator, posted 10-03-2007 6:07 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 122 by nator, posted 10-03-2007 9:47 PM purpledawn has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 117 of 307 (425694)
10-03-2007 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 115 by purpledawn
10-03-2007 6:32 PM


Round 2: Naturopathy is bunk
As I said before I'm not arguing the effectiveness of acupuncture.
That's right.
You claim to be discussing "the mainstream acceptance of acupuncture".
And, as I pointed out upthread, any "widespread mainstream" acceptance by the medical community is going to be based on acupuncture's efficacy (its effectiveness).
So. You are discussing acupuncture's effectiveness.
As I said: Studies can help to see through selling techniques...
* False accusations. The manufacturer of the product accuses the government or a medical profession of suppressing important information about the product's benefits. Neither the government nor any medical profession has any reason to withhold information that could help people.
You may have noticed that Lindalou harped incessantly about the suspect motives of Dr. Barrett.
You've been known to cast an aspersion or two yourself, you know.
And since this ...
* Pseudomedical jargon. Though terms such as "purify," "detoxify" and "energize" may sound impressive and may even have an element of truth, they're generally used to cover up a lack of scientific proof. Watch out for these words.
... has shown up at least twice on this thread (in particular, "toxins"), it doesn't look to me like folks are doin' too much sortin'.
No one has really showed that the concept is bad.
Why don't you answer nator's question?
Edited by molbiogirl, : title

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2007 6:32 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2007 7:28 PM molbiogirl has replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 118 of 307 (425698)
10-03-2007 7:28 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by molbiogirl
10-03-2007 7:19 PM


Re: Round 2: Naturopathy is bunk
quote:
Why don't you answer nator's question?
What question?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by molbiogirl, posted 10-03-2007 7:19 PM molbiogirl has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by molbiogirl, posted 10-03-2007 7:31 PM purpledawn has replied

molbiogirl
Member (Idle past 2641 days)
Posts: 1909
From: MO
Joined: 06-06-2007


Message 119 of 307 (425699)
10-03-2007 7:31 PM
Reply to: Message 118 by purpledawn
10-03-2007 7:28 PM


Re: Round 2: Naturopathy is bunk
nator writes:
Tell us again why Naturopathy should be given any credence whatsoever. Please.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 118 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2007 7:28 PM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 120 by purpledawn, posted 10-03-2007 7:41 PM molbiogirl has not replied

purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3457 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 120 of 307 (425701)
10-03-2007 7:41 PM
Reply to: Message 119 by molbiogirl
10-03-2007 7:31 PM


Busy Wading
Well since this isn't a chat forum, I was busy wading through your response and writing a reply to you before I was able to read her post.
Once I was finished with my response to you, then I moved on to the next response to my post which was nator's. I then composed a response to nator with an answer to her question.
Needless to say, I have answered her question.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by molbiogirl, posted 10-03-2007 7:31 PM molbiogirl has not replied

Newer Topic | Older Topic
Jump to:


Copyright 2001-2023 by EvC Forum, All Rights Reserved

™ Version 4.2
Innovative software from Qwixotic © 2024