Right Behavior Inherits Eternal Life

It's still not clear. I'm familar with the passage, but still need some claification from you.Are you saying that you could recognize them by their behavior?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

Figure of speech. A loving mother will admonish a child who she sees ignoring her instructions on how to cross the road safely. Cruel to be kind. The end justifies the means. If man was thinking that he could climb over the wall called law and God exposites to show how high the wall is then for a man who insists on climbing the wall this will come as a bit of a bombshell. I understand nothing of the sort. A man like Paul writing of himself in that way at that time makes no sense. There is nothing particular about the passage that leads one to conclude that Paul is speaking about himself - except he uses the word 'I'. That on it's own is too tenous a case - given the contradictions. And there are many, not least the fact that a couple of verses before he is telling some apprentice Christians in Rome that they have died to the law and are delivered from the law whereas he himself, a master craftsman Christian is being tortured by the law and being brought into captivity to it - the law of sin. Then only a couple of verses later he is telling them again that they have been freed from the law of sin and death. Freed but captive. A contradiction I've got cancer but I don't know I have. A doctor during examination notices something and sends me for a scan which reveals I have cancer. This is not introducing something new but dramatically changes my outlook. For a person who considers obeying the OT laws to be sufficient with respect to their position before God then Jesus' diagnosis would come as a bit of a bombshell. It's one thing to resist commiting adultery in the classic sense of the word. Quite another to avoid it if so much as looking at another woman means you've committed adultery. Jesus exposited - he didn't add. The effect on the tryers of OT law is to have the bar raised.Having said that, did the Law say anything about "so much as look". If not, why do you think what Jesus said isn't an addition? A righteous person is not a person who does not sin. A righteous person in Gods sight is simply a person who is considered in Gods sight to be righteous. And we have an OT explaination as to what causes a person to become righteous in Gods sight. Abraham. By believing God. Not his action. They are not intended primarily for our downfall, they are intended as signposts so that we become aware of what we are - sinners. Paul says in Romans 7 "how would I have known what covetness is if the law hadn't said "thou shalt not covet". Sin seizes the opportunity presented by the law however and causes us to break it. Sin sees "don't walk on the grass" and causes us to do precisely that. There was sin around before the law appeared and the wages of it were paid irrespective of whether people had signposts or no - death. So that which was intended as a sign post is not our downfall - we are fallen already. But in piles more and more sin onto us I do understand the forgiveness factor. What I don't understand is where or how you apply it. By obeying we are not sinning and don't need forgiveness. When we don't obey we are sinning and need forgivness. Either we are forgiven or we are not. I say "once for all" you seem to think it is related to effort put in or something All have sinned. Wages of sin death. Lost is the default position of every person born - unless something is done about the sin. Jesus came to seek and save the lost. What on earth use is it to people to go to synagogues if it is Christianity they need to know about. There is no gospel in the synagoges. Paul didn't set up synagoges, he set up Christian churches.I'm getting confused PD. You seem to be saying Judaism not Christianity is the true way??

Nope by their fruit. That is not to say that someone who is not a Christian doesn't display nice attributes. Many do. But this fruit is fruit of the spirit and if one has not the spirit then one cannot produce this fruit. It stands to reason.Galations 5:22-23 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.Unfortunately there is no relative measurement placed on it for us. A lot of love or a little love. Both can be fruit of the spirit for one who has the spirit. So whilst the fruit might be there it may or may not be evident to the casual observer. I suppose the best way to know if a person is a Christian by their fruit is to know a person before they were a Chrisitan then after they are a Christian. Then one would have some foundation point off which to measure whether or not fruit is being produced.

Then we are right back to my original question. How do you recognize these Christians? How do you recognize this alleged fruit?

---

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

[/qs]Maybe it would help if I further clarify. Insert the word 'then' to draw out the logic statement that I suggest Jesus is making here"If you love me (then) you will obey my commands"If/then. As with any logic statement, once the if condition is met, then result MUST follow. Jesus puts no other condition on it. Just if/then. IF you agree with this THEN we will proceed.Assume for a second I love Jesus. This means I will keep his commands. If I break one of them does that mean that he is a liar? God forbid. He said I will, but didn't say I would from the first moment I loved him. 'Will' is not a specific period in time just something that is stated as going to happen. Sometime. Thus there is room for progressively and increasingly obeying commands. Or not obeying them at all for years and years and then obeying them. Or not obeying them all this side of death and then obeying them in eternity. It has to happen at some point in order for Jesus to be telling the truth. But he doesn't say when. I would suggest it is progressive from the moment of coming to love him As I describe above yes. But I do not subscribe to "If you obey my commands then you love me" if that is what you are suggesting. Nor that lack of effort on our part at this moment will in any way affect the fact that it will happen at some point. Don't think that I underplay the importance of obedience or encourage slackness in obedience. I don't. I am trying to point out what the bible says and what it doesn't say. There are two types of people contrasted in the NT. In Christ/Not in Christ. Only a person who knows Christ can love him - it stands to reason. So the person who does not know Christ can have the following promise applied to them:"If you do not love me (and you cannot if you don't know me) you will not obey my commands"Same logic statement. No matter how hard they try, without love for Jesus (or knowing him) they will not obey his commands. It will never happen. If it never will happen then one can say that it cannot happen - so long as they don't love Jesus.

Interesting terminology, coming from you. I thought you were pushing the idea that Christianity is a light switch that, once flipped to the "on" position, can never be turned off.Now you seem to be talking about "degrees" of Christianity. To expand on jar's question: How do you recognize a Christian, and how do you tell the difference between an "apprentice Christian" and a "master craftsman Christian"?(By the way, I would hardly think of Paul as a "master craftsman Christian". He was more like the guy who goes to Home Depot to buy a hammer - and asks for the instruction book. )

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

Conversely, if the result does not occur, we know that the if condition was not met - i.e. if a person's behaviour is not right, we know that the person does not really love Jesus.

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

A biblical image given for a Christian is a citizen of heaven. One can be a good citizen or a bad citizen - it affects the citizenship not a jot. One citzen can be the President whose bloodline goes back to the foundation of the state and another can be an immigrant who has just been sworn in and whose English is poor and whose has never ventured outside the town he first landed in.Apprentice or master. It makes no odds to ones citizenship. If a Christian is defined by by what the bible says of him: has the spirit, is born again, is a citizen, is a son, is an heir, is in Christ - then there are no degrees of Christianity. All these things are states for which there is no middle ground. But one can know more about it than another. Different thing You might ask your average rapper what he thinks of Beethovens 5th. If he responds with "Da's rubbish musak in da house" you may agree with him...or you may take his view with a pinch of salt.Discernment Ringo...it'll all about discernment This message has been edited by iano, 30-Nov-2005 06:10 PM

You got a timeline on the word 'will' in the sentence there Ringo? At what point do you start the observation period. And at what point do you stop it. Biblically, like...

Methinks, It's not clear-cut because hypocracy (*masking* one's true wretched self into something else) seems to exist to various extents in all human nature, especially, "hype-Christians":2Co 11:14 And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light: Furthermore: Paul mentioned "false-brethren unawares" (Gal2:4, etc.)Matt 13.25-32 seems to stress "wheat vs. tares" are difficult to discern.Nonetheless scriptures state:"Confessing Jesus Christ as Lord and/or Savior" (1John)."Loving fellow Christians""Nice (gentlemanly) behavior" (as per Iano (above)) as fruits of the Spirit"Departing from iniquity""Loving Jesus" (as per Iano) (might be recognized as a *Jesus-Freak*, or something)

Think I might have been wasting your time Jar. Was just looking up the "by their fruits ye shall know them" and in two cases Matthew and Luke, the context has to do with true and false teachers. Not how do you know a Christian in generalMy mistake - sorry

I'm starting to think it might be a case of "It takes one to know one"And you've reminded me of something. I am a Jesus Freak. Sheesh....I used to use that as a term of abuse 5 years ago

Never mind "citizenship". You used the terms "apprentice" and "master". How does that not imply different "levels" of Christian?In real life, a master craftsman can be recognized by the work he does - by deeds. An apprentice can be recognized by the lesser "quality" or sophistication of his work/deeds.Why do you consistently fail to understand your own analogies?

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.

My you are feisty today Ringo One of Pauls deeds was to produce (under influence of the Spirit) the book of Romans. Another of his deeds was to make (under the influence of the Spirit) 4 evangelical journeys.Compare to my ramblings.Apprentice/Master.

I don't know what you're getting at. I didn't use the word "will", so I don't see why I should have to explain it. You said: How about you explain why the timeline is indefinite? How long does it take before a Christian begins obeying Jesus' commands? A day? A week? Can we reasonably expect to see it in our lifetime?

---

People who think they have all the answers usually don't understand the questions.