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Author Topic:   Honour Amongst Christians
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 31 of 308 (449665)
01-18-2008 4:53 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by jar
01-18-2008 4:46 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Ok Ok, point taken.
I have a question for you, though.
Jar writes:
In all honesty, no one has a clue whether they are saved or not even if something like an afterlife does happen to exist. We might hope for such a thing, perhaps even hope fervently, but if we are honest we gotta admit we ain't got a clue.
Do you believe that Jesus existed and that He died for everyone? (Not just those who believe in Him)
And BTW you can only honestly speak for yourself in saying that you don't have a clue. How would we honestly know if anyone else had a clue or not? Do you despise exclusivity that much?
Edited by Phat, : added features

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 4:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 32 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 5:13 PM Phat has replied

jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 32 of 308 (449668)
01-18-2008 5:13 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Phat
01-18-2008 4:53 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Do you believe that Jesus existed and that He died for everyone? (Not just those who believe in Him)
The idea of Jesus death as some payment doesn't make any sense and only makes God look stupid.
And BTW you can only honestly speak for yourself in saying that you don't have a clue.
Why?
How would we honestly know if anyone else had a clue or not?
We ask them to support their position, just as we do for anything else.
Do you despise exclusivity that much?
How can you despise something so silly? You might pity folk that believe such stuff or humor them, but 'despise' should be reserved for things of some importance.

Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Phat, posted 01-18-2008 4:53 PM Phat has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Phat, posted 01-19-2008 3:00 PM jar has replied

ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 33 of 308 (449714)
01-18-2008 8:17 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
01-18-2008 1:22 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
Hi Stile,
Stile writes:
Why should we waste time believing in God or Jesus? Their existance will stand fine on it's own. Shouldn't we be focusing our efforts on improving oneself and others in this world?
Stile if atheist are correct and there is no God man can do anything his little mind desires.
If there is a God that created this universe and everything in it He left us His Word to tell us how we should do some things.
In other words the universe is His.
Everything in it is His.
He can do whatever He pleases with anything in it.
He could demand that you roll a peanut from Atlanta Ga. to New York City with your nose to obtain eternal life if He wanted to.
It is His world.
It is His Game.
He makes the rules.
We have to play the game according to His rules.
You say no I don't.
Part of His rules are if you don't play by His rules you end up in a lake of fire.
Now you make up your own rules if you want too. But you better be sure the Atheist are correct.
You see I do believe in God and I am willing to play by His rules and accept His authority.
But since God allowed man to have freewill He can choose to do as he pleases if he wants too.
So go ahead have fun, follow those that say what you want to hear.
Just don't blame God when you end up in the lake of fire.
Be sure to have fun,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 1:22 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 9:00 AM ICANT has replied
 Message 77 by nator, posted 01-21-2008 10:34 PM ICANT has replied

Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 308 (449759)
01-18-2008 10:01 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stile
01-18-2008 1:22 PM


Re: Understanding the basics
All I'm saying is that God can grant salvation. And I've heard that some people believe God gives the gift of salvation to those who ask for it. Yet will not give it to anyone who does not ask for it.
To me, a gift is honourable if you don't ask for it and someone still gives it to you. Otherwise (if you asked for it) you certainly may still deserve it, and it can still be good, but it's not honourable any longer.
So in essence, its not Christians you are questioning, but God. Is that accurate, or am I missing something?
Why is salvation only dispensed to those who ask? Where is the honour in that?
Because it is a much harder thing to concede that we are wrong than to do the less honorable thing, which is to hang on to our pride.
At the end of the sentence you seem to put importance on being "out there" and "living it's dictates" (which I assume to basically mean being a good person). And that's exactly what I'm saying, the important thing is to be out there, trying your best at being a good person. You seem to agree that this is better than spending all one's time in the Bible.
But I have no idea what this has to do with "honor" or "salvation."
Claiming to be a Christian or professing belief in God and Jesus, to me, is "spending one's time in the Bible" and not being out there, trying to improve oneself and others in this world.
I don't want to be misunderstood, so please allow me to clarify my position. I'm certainly not talking about not reading the Bible. I simply mean that reading the words and not putting it in to practice is less than going out there and living out the Word.
Why should we waste time believing in God or Jesus? Their existance will stand fine on it's own. Shouldn't we be focusing our efforts on improving oneself and others in this world?
Because it isn't a waste of time -- its an integral part of it all. Those who trek out on a mission to save the world, apart from God, end up screwing it up even worse by thinking that the answer to the world's problems is inside of them. All of the megalomaniacs in the world have embodied these characteristics.
Those who seem the most effective are those that don't try and save the world, per say, but rather those who help one person at a time and reach them on their level -- all of which was taught by example from Jesus.
It is good to receive a gift you didn't ask for.
It is good to receive a gift you did ask for.
Only one is honourable.
We are seeing this gift in different ways it seems. I understand what you are saying, I think. Please correct me if I'm missing your premise.
If I ask for a gift from someone, it is less honorable than living a humble life, and out of the overflow of the heart, someone gives you a gift.
At the same time, those who ask for forgiveness essentially abase themselves and profess their iniquities. That's not an easy thing to do. I see far more honor in admitting one's shortcomings than going through life thinking we've got it all figured out.

“There is something which unites magic and applied science while separating both from the 'wisdom' of earlier ages. For the wise men of old the cardinal problem had been how to conform the soul to objective reality, and the solution had been knowledge, self-discipline, and virtue. For magic and applied science alike the problem is how to subdue reality to the wishes of men: the solution is a technique; and both, in the practice of this technique, are ready to do things hitherto regarded as disgusting and impious" -C.S. Lewis

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 1:22 PM Stile has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 9:10 AM Hyroglyphx has not replied

Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 35 of 308 (449882)
01-19-2008 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 32 by jar
01-18-2008 5:13 PM


It May Be Honorable To Question
I will admit that it is honorable to question what we have been taught.
You have steadfastly and continually articulated your beliefs here at EvC, and have provided reasonable support for these beliefs.
I, on the other hand, have continually reread and pondered the dogma of others...only recently showing any signs of original thought on the matter. I never had the opportunity to have my beliefs challenged and questioned and thrown onto the wrestling mat of logic, reason, and reality. (Except with my debates with you! )
Some questions which spring to my mind:
  • Why would GOD be unconcerned if we actually believed in Her or not?
    Surely an omnipotent Being would be more than capable of a personal relationship with every living thing in the universe. I was always taught that the communion between God and Man is sacred, in fact.
  • Is the purpose of Jesus Christ, in your opinion, merely to be the role of a great moral teacher? The lesson of GOD becoming man should emphasize the life of Christ as well as the death of Christ, but the majority of Christianity maintains that this overcoming of death was highly important and significant. Do you gloss over it as irrelevant?
    Of course, its illogical to presuppose that GOD could ever die and come back to life, but the implications of His human character doing so seems to me to be a sacrificial blessing for humanity.

  • This message is a reply to:
     Message 32 by jar, posted 01-18-2008 5:13 PM jar has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 36 by jar, posted 01-19-2008 3:08 PM Phat has not replied

    jar
    Member (Idle past 394 days)
    Posts: 34026
    From: Texas!!
    Joined: 04-20-2004


    Message 36 of 308 (449883)
    01-19-2008 3:08 PM
    Reply to: Message 35 by Phat
    01-19-2008 3:00 PM


    Re: It May Be Honorable To Question
    The topic is "Honour Amongst Christians" and it is pretty well laid out in the OP.
    How are your questions related to the topic?

    Anyone so limited that they can only spell a word one way is severely handicapped!

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 35 by Phat, posted 01-19-2008 3:00 PM Phat has not replied

    Rrhain
    Member
    Posts: 6351
    From: San Diego, CA, USA
    Joined: 05-03-2003


    Message 37 of 308 (449899)
    01-19-2008 5:43 PM
    Reply to: Message 4 by Stile
    01-18-2008 8:30 AM


    Re: Understanding the basics
    Stile writes:
    quote:
    My point is that it's more honourable to let yourself be judged by whoever will do the judging than to jump out beforehand and request salvation from whoever can grant such.
    And there are parts of the New Testament that say exactly that. The first part of Matthew 6 is all about not making a spectacle of your faith, that those who do are not seeking god's reward but the glory of man.
    Of course, that contradicts Matthew 5 which says that you need to let your light shine before men, but contradictory phrases are par for the course.
    Your asking the question of whether or not you follow Paul or James: Is salvation through faith or works? Paul says that it is faith. After, that's the only way he can justify himself given the horrible works he carried out: He saved himself because he had a change of heart.
    Ephesians 2:8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
    2:9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
    But James' claim is that faith without works is dead.
    James 2:18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
    James 2:20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
    James 2:26: For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
    Now, James didn't say faith was of no concern, but it is clear that the point is that believing is not enough. The way you prove that faith is by doing. "Courage of your convictions" and all that.

    Rrhain

    Thank you for your submission to Science. Your paper was reviewed by a jury of seventh graders so that they could look for balance and to allow them to make up their own minds. We are sorry to say that they found your paper "bogus," specifically describing the section on the laboratory work "boring." We regret that we will be unable to publish your work at this time.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 4 by Stile, posted 01-18-2008 8:30 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 43 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 9:17 AM Rrhain has not replied

    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 38 of 308 (450187)
    01-21-2008 8:40 AM
    Reply to: Message 27 by macaroniandcheese
    01-18-2008 4:26 PM


    Re: Could be worse
    brennakimi writes:
    i posted a rant list and not much has changed since then. after being a christian for 21 years, there's not many people who can answer my questions beyond "this is what it says". i know what it says, that's why i'm having problems.
    I don't think I'd be too much help then, sorry. I know a bit about what it says, but I don't have any of those answers either. Especially if it's in context of the Christian religion. If any of those questions are about practical life, without mention of any sort of religion, I may have some input. But likely still no answers. These questions tend to be of the important kind. The kind of where if there were answers, everyone would know about it rather quickly.
    but that's who i am. i'm a searcher.
    Good. Mind if I cheat off your answers when you make progress?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 27 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-18-2008 4:26 PM macaroniandcheese has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 41 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-21-2008 9:01 AM Stile has replied

    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 39 of 308 (450189)
    01-21-2008 8:49 AM
    Reply to: Message 29 by Phat
    01-18-2008 4:39 PM


    Re: Understanding the basics
    Phat writes:
    The gift was given to all regardless of whether we asked for it or not. Of course you don't have to get to know God through Jesus Christ if you honestly believe in your heart that you don't want to make a big show of it...but you may well meet Him anyway.
    Oh, no. I don't have a problem with getting to know anyone. I'd consider it kind of rude not to, even. I just have a problem with anyone requiring people to ask for help before it's given. But it seems like you don't think it's like that anyway.
    Do you want to live as honorably as you possibly can, without all the trappings of exclusivity?
    Being honourable isn't my highest priority, no. But it's up there.
    IF God exists and IF Jesus Christ is eternally Gods human incarnation, would it be honorable to avoid meeting Him, should the opportunity arise?
    IF God OR Jesus OR Zeus OR an imaginary pixie ever gave me the opportunity to meet with them, it would not be honourable to avoid them. And I wouldn't.
    In other words, would you climb a tree to avoid having to deal with Him face to face, should the opportunity ever realistically or even symbolically present itself?
    No, I'd consider this rude.
    Well, what do you mean by "symbolically"? How can I symbolically meet anyone "face to face"? It kinda sounds like an oxymoron.
    Don't go out of your way to seek the gift, but don't avoid it if it comes knocking at your door, either.
    Good advice.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 29 by Phat, posted 01-18-2008 4:39 PM Phat has not replied

    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 40 of 308 (450190)
    01-21-2008 9:00 AM
    Reply to: Message 33 by ICANT
    01-18-2008 8:17 PM


    Good is greater than God
    ICANT writes:
    Stile if atheist are correct and there is no God man can do anything his little mind desires.
    Doesn't seem to be much out there stopping man from doing anything his little mind desires right now. Apart from other people... honourable people.
    If there is a God that created this universe and everything in it He left us His Word to tell us how we should do some things.
    Agreed. But this doesn't make him right, or good, or honourable.
    He could demand that you roll a peanut from Atlanta Ga. to New York City with your nose to obtain eternal life if He wanted to.
    Of course He could. And this would make him a power-crazy bully. And very dishonourable.
    We have to play the game according to His rules.
    You say no I don't.
    Part of His rules are if you don't play by His rules you end up in a lake of fire.
    True. I only refuse to play by His rules if His rules are dishonourable. God's got to step up his game if he wants to deserve anyone's respect. Treating people nicely would be a good start. I'm sure if I can do it, God's certainly capable.
    Now you make up your own rules if you want too. But you better be sure the Atheist are correct.
    The atheist viewpoint is irrelevant. I'd much rather spend my time in the lake of fire than forfeit my honour and bend to the will of some unrighteus being with infinite power.
    I am kinda weak though, it probably wouldn't take much torture to break me. Is that really winning, though, if God has to torture me in order to get me to spend time with Him? It's certainly still not honourable by any means.
    But since God allowed man to have freewill He can choose to do as he pleases if he wants too.
    I choose to follow the virtues of righteousness and honour. Even if an infinite God opposes these, it wouldn't stop me from trying my best to follow those virtues.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 33 by ICANT, posted 01-18-2008 8:17 PM ICANT has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 45 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 10:28 AM Stile has replied

    macaroniandcheese 
    Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
    Posts: 4258
    Joined: 05-24-2004


    Message 41 of 308 (450191)
    01-21-2008 9:01 AM
    Reply to: Message 38 by Stile
    01-21-2008 8:40 AM


    Re: Could be worse
    Good. Mind if I cheat off your answers when you make progress?
    isn't that the point of humanity? sharing the solution when we find it?

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 38 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 8:40 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 44 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 9:22 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 42 of 308 (450195)
    01-21-2008 9:10 AM
    Reply to: Message 34 by Hyroglyphx
    01-18-2008 10:01 PM


    So "ask" doesn't mean "ask"?
    So in essence, its not Christians you are questioning, but God. Is that accurate, or am I missing something?
    I think I am being confusing.
    I was under the assumptions that Christians thought:
    "God will grant salvation to anyone who asks, all they have to do is ask, but they must ask."
    I'm questioning this Christian-based theology.
    Because it is a much harder thing to concede that we are wrong than to do the less honorable thing, which is to hang on to our pride.
    ...
    I see far more honor in admitting one's shortcomings than going through life thinking we've got it all figured out.
    But you seem to be saying something different. And I agree with what you're touching on here. If God grants His forgiveness and salvation to anyone who truthfully concedes that they are wrong, and admits their shortcomings... then I do find this honourable.
    And I see no asking for salvation here. (Which would mean that the part I find dishonourable doesn't exist)
    Do you mean that admitting we're wrong is "asking" for salvation?
    A strange definition for "ask", but I agree that if this is what you mean, I have no arguement with it. It's certainly very honourable.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 34 by Hyroglyphx, posted 01-18-2008 10:01 PM Hyroglyphx has not replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 53 by ICANT, posted 01-21-2008 12:55 PM Stile has replied

    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 43 of 308 (450197)
    01-21-2008 9:17 AM
    Reply to: Message 37 by Rrhain
    01-19-2008 5:43 PM


    Faith and Works
    Rrhain writes:
    Now, James didn't say faith was of no concern, but it is clear that the point is that believing is not enough. The way you prove that faith is by doing. "Courage of your convictions" and all that.
    Yes, I agree more with James.
    But I wouldn't use "faith" as much as "motive". I'm more concerned with trying to do the right thing (motive) than with believing in God (faith).
    If faith ever was a nice, clean ideal, I certainly don't find it so now. Faith seems tainted and abused to me, I want to stay away from the word.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 37 by Rrhain, posted 01-19-2008 5:43 PM Rrhain has not replied

    Stile
    Member
    Posts: 4295
    From: Ontario, Canada
    Joined: 12-02-2004


    Message 44 of 308 (450198)
    01-21-2008 9:22 AM
    Reply to: Message 41 by macaroniandcheese
    01-21-2008 9:01 AM


    Re: Could be worse
    brennakimi writes:
    Stile writes:
    Good. Mind if I cheat off your answers when you make progress?
    isn't that the point of humanity? sharing the solution when we find it?
    Yes, I wouldn't dream of arguing otherwise. In the mean time though, humour's a good way to keep our spirits up.

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 41 by macaroniandcheese, posted 01-21-2008 9:01 AM macaroniandcheese has not replied

    ICANT
    Member
    Posts: 6769
    From: SSC
    Joined: 03-12-2007
    Member Rating: 1.5


    Message 45 of 308 (450213)
    01-21-2008 10:28 AM
    Reply to: Message 40 by Stile
    01-21-2008 9:00 AM


    Re: Good is greater than God
    Hi Stile,
    Stile writes:
    The atheist viewpoint is irrelevant. I'd much rather spend my time in the lake of fire than forfeit my honour and bend to the will of some unrighteus being with infinite power.
    As Burger King says: Have it your way.
    As to the atheist viewpoint, if there was not God there would be no hell, that would mean no problem. Just a thought.
    Stile writes:
    I am kinda weak though, it probably wouldn't take much torture to break me. Is that really winning, though, if God has to torture me in order to get me to spend time with Him?
    News Flash: once in the lake of fire you don't get out to spend time with God. Sorry.
    Stile writes:
    I choose to follow the virtues of righteousness and honour.
    Who decides what righteousness is?
    Who decides what is honorable?
    Stile does, so that makes you God. Congratulations on the promotion.
    That was what the first woman was trying to achieve wasn't it?
    Have fun,

    "John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

    This message is a reply to:
     Message 40 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 9:00 AM Stile has replied

    Replies to this message:
     Message 46 by jar, posted 01-21-2008 12:13 PM ICANT has not replied
     Message 49 by Phat, posted 01-21-2008 12:19 PM ICANT has replied
     Message 56 by Stile, posted 01-21-2008 1:49 PM ICANT has replied
     Message 78 by nator, posted 01-21-2008 10:41 PM ICANT has replied

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