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Author Topic:   Who can be saved? A Christian perspective
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 76 of 466 (147696)
10-06-2004 1:22 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by almeyda
10-06-2004 1:03 AM


Verse 32 says And he shall separate them one from another. This is about the seperation of the saved and the unsaved.
Well let's step through it.
quote:
32: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34: Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
So verses 32 to 34 do show separating those saved from those who are not saved.
You actually think Christ will bring athiests or satanics into his flock?
Sure. That's what Jesus said.
The tale goes on to show just what criteria will be used.
quote:
35: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
Is there anything in there that deals with what they believe, what they profess, what they say?
Verse 41 clearly talks about the judgement of sin. Those who lived in sin and without Christ will be sent into the everlasting fire, prepared for the devil.
Is that so? Let's look?
If you read the rest it says...
quote:
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
Where does that mention sin, belief, or anything other than "42: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not."
Behavior. And not what most think of as sin, but rather a failure to follow the two Great Commandments.
Love GOD and Love others as you love yourself.
It really is as simple as that.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by almeyda, posted 10-06-2004 1:03 AM almeyda has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 77 by mike the wiz, posted 10-06-2004 10:26 PM jar has replied
 Message 81 by dpardo, posted 10-07-2004 4:13 PM jar has replied
 Message 106 by almeyda, posted 10-09-2004 6:13 AM jar has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 77 of 466 (147951)
10-06-2004 10:26 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
10-06-2004 1:22 AM


Well, no one is going to change your mind. But what's with all this bling bling pimp daddy, and the name "phatboy".
Anyway, I gues you kinda like Mathew 25, but to be honest, I don't buy into no common prayer book as biblical.
You see Jar - you're conveniently skipping things Phatz and I have said concerning sin, accountability etc.. You see, if you repent, and believe then you want to expose your sin, and if you don't then it's of doubt - and you want to keep your sin, and therefore love sin/darkness rather than the light.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 10-06-2004 1:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by jar, posted 10-06-2004 10:42 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 78 of 466 (147957)
10-06-2004 10:42 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by mike the wiz
10-06-2004 10:26 PM


Anyway, I gues you kinda like Mathew 25, but to be honest, I don't buy into no common prayer book as biblical.
Well, that's fine since the BCP is not Biblical. It's the Book of Common Prayer. But before you totally dismiss it, it might be a good idea to learn something about it.
If you disagree with me, no problem. Why don't you outline what YOU believe and why you believe it is true?
This is a discussion, eveyone is welcome to express their pont of view.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by mike the wiz, posted 10-06-2004 10:26 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
nator
Member (Idle past 2169 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


(1)
Message 79 of 466 (148041)
10-07-2004 8:39 AM
Reply to: Message 66 by Phat
10-05-2004 4:13 AM


Re: Speaking of Love and forgiveness...
quote:
Why do we get so angry when a preacher falls, especially when it involves money, yet we are SO forgiving to the C.E.O. bigwigs and their 100 million dollar thefts which cause thousands to lose their health insurance?
It is because presachers are supposed to be examples of high Christian morals.
Nobody has expectations that CEO's of big business to be anything but corrupt.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by Phat, posted 10-05-2004 4:13 AM Phat has seen this message but not replied

  
ramoss
Member (Idle past 611 days)
Posts: 3228
Joined: 08-11-2004


Message 80 of 466 (148059)
10-07-2004 9:58 AM
Reply to: Message 75 by almeyda
10-06-2004 1:03 AM


I will not that the 'SHeep' will be seperated from the 'Goats' BY THEIR WORKS, not by their beliefs.
This goes to show that the different 'New Testament' writers all had different forumulas for 'salvation', and used different secret decoder rings to find what they thought was god's intent.
This message has been edited by ramoss, 10-07-2004 09:04 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by almeyda, posted 10-06-2004 1:03 AM almeyda has not replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 81 of 466 (148158)
10-07-2004 4:13 PM
Reply to: Message 76 by jar
10-06-2004 1:22 AM


Hi Jar,
John 3:17-20 says:
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Does verse 18 address your assertion that Jesus does not require us to believe something in order to be saved?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by jar, posted 10-06-2004 1:22 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 10-07-2004 4:46 PM dpardo has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 82 of 466 (148160)
10-07-2004 4:46 PM
Reply to: Message 81 by dpardo
10-07-2004 4:13 PM


Actually, it is a continuation of the message that IMHO, has been distorted by many of the fundamentalist and literalist sects.
Carry on one verse more. Add verse 21 as well and you get a fuller picture.
21: But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
The gift of salvation was freely given, given to all, given to saint and sinner, believer and non-believer. But many reject the gift, not by their professions, not by denying the existence of GOD or Jesus, but by not living up to their potential, by not Loving GOD and loving others as they love themselves.
I think that the real issue is the part about loving GOD.
Many Christians believe that loving GOD means that you have to acknowledge GOD, that when it says that the only way is through Jesus that it means professing your belief or saying certain things.
I don't believe that is the message at all. Instead, the passage in John, those in Matthew and the life of Jesus itself seems to be lessons in behavior. GOD is not concerned by what you say. All the professions in the world will not offset behavior. If you Love GOD, then do as in Matthew 25.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 81 by dpardo, posted 10-07-2004 4:13 PM dpardo has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by dpardo, posted 10-07-2004 6:58 PM jar has replied

  
dpardo
Inactive Member


Message 83 of 466 (148197)
10-07-2004 6:58 PM
Reply to: Message 82 by jar
10-07-2004 4:46 PM


Hi Jar,
You said:
"The gift of salvation was freely given, given to all, given to saint and sinner, believer and non-believer."
How can you accept this gift of salvation without acknowledging God?
Logically, isn't acknowledgement/belief in the giver implicit in accepting this gift?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by jar, posted 10-07-2004 4:46 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 10-07-2004 7:19 PM dpardo has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 84 of 466 (148206)
10-07-2004 7:19 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by dpardo
10-07-2004 6:58 PM


How can you accept this gift of salvation without acknowledging God?
Logically, isn't acknowledgement/belief in the giver implicit in accepting this gift?
I don't think that's an issue.
There are many gifts that simply don't have to be acknowledged or even known. Think about the old tale of the wealthy man that pays a young man's way to college anonymously.
GOD gave the gift of salvation freely. If someone never knows about it, yet still lives a good life, they will find out about it when they die. It may come, in fact I believe it WILL come, as a complete surprise. I can't wait to see the astonishment on the faces of many an atheist when they discover not only were they wrong, GOD has prepared a place for them at the barbeque. It'll be better'n any surprise party ever.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by dpardo, posted 10-07-2004 6:58 PM dpardo has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 10-07-2004 7:45 PM jar has not replied
 Message 297 by Phat, posted 10-20-2009 4:52 AM jar has not replied

  
crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1466 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 85 of 466 (148216)
10-07-2004 7:45 PM
Reply to: Message 84 by jar
10-07-2004 7:19 PM


I can't wait to see the astonishment on the faces of many an atheist when they discover not only were they wrong, GOD has prepared a place for them at the barbeque. It'll be better'n any surprise party ever.
This atheist, for one, will be supremely pissed off.
You can bet that if I die and I find out that there's been a God that could have been fixing things and doing real work instead of sitting on his butt, well, it had better be a rib barbecue, because I'm gonna shove 'em bones and all right up his ass. There's real suffering in the world; good thing he's having a fuckin' cookout.
I would be very, very worried if I were in your position - to believe that a God exists, but that this is the best he can do.
God could explain himself, I guess. Maybe he's got a good reason. Nothing I've heard from people, though, even comes close.
I should make it clear that I would be angry; not that I am now. I bear no anger towards that that does not exist.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 84 by jar, posted 10-07-2004 7:19 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 86 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 3:26 PM crashfrog has replied
 Message 320 by Phat, posted 11-14-2011 1:40 PM crashfrog has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 86 of 466 (148425)
10-08-2004 3:26 PM
Reply to: Message 85 by crashfrog
10-07-2004 7:45 PM


That that does not exist?
Prove it - you asserted it.
Furthermore - Now you can see were this friendly message gets you Jar, not only do we get a so far peaceful thread, but now Crash crashes - and doesn't care anything for your preaching Jar - his only intent is to declare that God doesn't exist - and that God should have done this, that and the other..I mean - if this isn't the prize mike's been waiting for then what is?
Thus, Crashfrog - I fully expect that you are indeed as good as your word - and go about ending "real suffering in the world" because of your words against Jar's post. Infact - it is now fitting and ironic, that you should now go out into the world - and DO Mathew 25, that's right - you now must infact do Jar's request by word alone, because you have said that God sits on his arse, when infact he heals people even daily.
Now you have also induced.
Because you see suffering - you assume God cannot exist - and/or has sat on his arse.
Yet - ironically - what did Jar say?? He said that a richman could fund someone all of the days of his life - without Crashfrog knowing, likewise - could not God do things all the more so - without Crashfrog knowing? Thus your premise is inductive;
\"There's real suffering in the world;" ....."to believe that a God exists, but that this is the best he can do."
And so - you only include that which you know of - suffering, inducing bad things for God's name. You cannot credit him with suffering alone, you're ignoring the good things people have claimed - from God.
And if you do go to heaven - what will you say about Christ's suffering - for you? Shall you spit it in his face?
So you see - unbelieving man cannot shut his tongue up no matter what we say Jar. It's a lose-lose situation with these guys - and you have to learn it!
It should be amusing to watch a cell argue with a universe though.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 10-08-2004 02:29 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 85 by crashfrog, posted 10-07-2004 7:45 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 87 by MrHambre, posted 10-08-2004 4:22 PM mike the wiz has replied
 Message 90 by jar, posted 10-08-2004 5:36 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 91 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 5:37 PM mike the wiz has replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 87 of 466 (148454)
10-08-2004 4:22 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by mike the wiz
10-08-2004 3:26 PM


Mike,
quote:
Because you see suffering - you assume God cannot exist - and/or has sat on his arse.
Please explain why this is any less valid than your "we exist, therefore God exists" construct. I think it's fair to say that if there is suffering on the Earth, then God either cannot or will not intervene to stop it.
regards,
Esteban Hambre

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 3:26 PM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 88 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 4:44 PM MrHambre has replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 88 of 466 (148463)
10-08-2004 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 87 by MrHambre
10-08-2004 4:22 PM


I think it's fair to say that if there is suffering on the Earth, then God either cannot or will not intervene to stop it.
Ahhhh, but I also remember your comments. What about all that none-suffering that you think doesn't exist? What about the healings and testimonies from people who defy medical science, and even the doctors acknowledge it?
What about all the times God has intervened to stop things - with you being ignorant of it?
Example; Hambre is walking for the paper - and mike the sniper hits the bottle top tied to Hambre's pocket - him being an avid bottletop collector, God knowing it would save his life - that rare super bullet proof bottletop - that can only be found in Hambre's favourite newsagent - that bottletop being from(the viagra bottle).
Yes H - it was me that shot at you. I remember your comments, " Well atleast something can shoot ".

This message is a reply to:
 Message 87 by MrHambre, posted 10-08-2004 4:22 PM MrHambre has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 89 by MrHambre, posted 10-08-2004 5:29 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 93 by crashfrog, posted 10-08-2004 5:41 PM mike the wiz has not replied
 Message 107 by nator, posted 10-09-2004 8:33 AM mike the wiz has not replied

  
MrHambre
Member (Idle past 1392 days)
Posts: 1495
From: Framingham, MA, USA
Joined: 06-23-2003


Message 89 of 466 (148481)
10-08-2004 5:29 PM
Reply to: Message 88 by mike the wiz
10-08-2004 4:44 PM


He Can, And He Does...Sometimes
Mike,
quote:
What about all the times God has intervened to stop things - with you being ignorant of it?
What about it? If you bothered to think it through, Mike, you'd realize how little this actually benefits your argument. At least I'm being consistent by saying that if God doesn't exist, some people suffer and some people prosper. There's no cosmic reason for the disparity.
However, by believing that not only does God exist but that He can intervene to prevent suffering, you're caught in a paradox that you can only (and obviously do) rationalize your way out of to no one else's satisfaction. If God can intervene, then evidently in the visible examples of suffering we see, He chooses not to. Is God too busy to intervene all the time? Is He sacrificing some innocents to the ravages of the cruel world so that people will understand suffering and fear it? Is He making sure people realize His power to punish and reward?
No matter what way you explain it, Mike, you still end up with a less-than-flattering picture of God. That you still believe it's a realistic portrayal of a God worth worshipping says volumes about you.
regards,
Esteban Hambre
This message has been edited by AdminHambre, 10-08-2004 04:30 PM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 88 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 4:44 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 393 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 90 of 466 (148482)
10-08-2004 5:36 PM
Reply to: Message 86 by mike the wiz
10-08-2004 3:26 PM


But Mike, Kermee's question is valid, and one theology has been struggling with since the beginning. Don't you think one of my first questions to ask GOD will be just that? We would all like to know why there is excessive suffering.

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 86 by mike the wiz, posted 10-08-2004 3:26 PM mike the wiz has not replied

  
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