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Author Topic:   Intelligence
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 76 of 84 (161531)
11-19-2004 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by mike the wiz
11-15-2004 11:45 AM


Re: lol
Mike writes:
You really are a great guy.
Aw!
Mike writes:
They're almost uncontrollable - I had them for a while, with the same person bothering me again and again, it gets better with time, and the mind eventually places that person in a less important manner - as it should.
Actually I think you misunderstood. I wasn't talking about school-related dreams (though I do have those, too; yes, even to this day, they still haunt me), I meant dreams related to last year's events. Very, very bad dreams. Not nightmares, you understand; "bad" dreams. Painful, agonizing, suffocating, paralysing dreams. My mind seems determined to make me keep reliving things over and over again. Frankly, I'd take nightmares in preference to them, any day. I don't like nightmares but these dreams hurt too much.
Mike writes:
As for these bullies - I hope you can rid them from your mind. Try to place them in context - they have no right to continue to get to you.
That still happens in my dreams, too, sometimes. But as I said, my "school dreams" aren't really the big issue. To be honest, I'd be content to live with them if I could get rid of these other ones.
Mike writes:
Well, when the wind blows - the other Tony is stiffened in the cold.
Um...
The "other" Tony? Erm...alright I'm even more confused now than I was before.
Sorry mate, I know I'm going to feel like a total dork when I finally get it but I'm afraid I still don't.
Meanwhile, everybody reading is thinking to themselves, "Good grief, Tony, it couldn't be simpler!"
Mike writes:
As for dimensions. I promise I know nothing of them...
I'll teach you! Heh, as if I'm an expert on the topic.
Mike writes:
...and honestly participate in too many threads as it is...
Heh, I understand. I'd imagine you have a hard enough time keeping up already, without having to deal with my rants, too.
Mike writes:
...I can't think of dimensions as interesting me that much...
They...don't...
They...
...don't...
...interest you?
...
BLASPHEMY!!
Heh, it's funny because I'm not even sure I understand my own fascination with them. Perhaps it's simply because the concept of higher dimensions is one that, as yet, I haven't been able to fully grasp. Of course, it would seem that there are very few people who do (Rrhain being one), but my mind can be quite stubborn like that; it wants to understand.
Mike writes:
...as I am a lune *Tony logic*...
The best kind of logic.
Mike writes:
...and so - they just confuse me. Lol
Heh, they can be confusing, can't they? Honestly, though, the basic principles are fairly simple, it's their logical consequences that enter the realm of the mind-bending. Higher dimensions are actually very straightforward, mathematically, but visualizing them is exceedingly difficult. No doubt that's why my mind so adamantly wants to do it.
Mike writes:
Okay, don't waste rants on me - I'm terrible in that I am not a great "responder". Forgive my lack of input but I still enjoy reading!
Oh I don't feel like I'm "wasting" anything on you. I like our chats. I'm glad that you like reading them but don't worry about not being a great "responder." I'm quite used to hearing, "Sorry I don't reply to most of what you said." I know I rant; it's a gift...or is that a curse?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by mike the wiz, posted 11-15-2004 11:45 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 82 by mike the wiz, posted 12-03-2004 11:46 AM Tony650 has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 77 of 84 (161533)
11-19-2004 3:24 PM
Reply to: Message 75 by Mission for Truth
11-17-2004 2:01 PM


Re: Forgot Something
Mission! I haven't seen you for ages!
Mission for Truth writes:
Yes, I've noticed Tony! I don't know about the others but I am eagerly awaiting... lol.
Argh! I'm sorry. I was getting to it (eventually), but after a while, it seemed that you'd kind of...well...disappeared.
Good to see you back, though. Oh, and sorry about Mike and I commandeering your thread for our chat. My apologies.
Mission for Truth writes:
So, if you could picture it, I was flying in a fetal position with my head on my right shoulder and my arm projecting straight out.
Heh, I don't think I've ever flown like that.
The night that I recounted to Mike, I was in a kind of twisted position, with my back leaning to one side (in my bed, that is). As such, this is the posture that I felt like I was assuming in my dream...which may explain why I kept flying in circles (just kidding).
Mission for Truth writes:
Done that too.
Well, I'm glad to know I'm not a freak. Or if I am, at least I'm in good company.
Mission for Truth writes:
Ever dream of a really hot girl and just when things are going your way the alarm goes off and you have to actually get up and press the snooze button?
Ha! I have about as much luck with the ladies in my dreams as I do in real life!
Mission for Truth writes:
Tony do you like playing chess?
Well, it's ok. I haven't played for a while, though. I doubt I'd be much of a challenge for "The Mission."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 75 by Mission for Truth, posted 11-17-2004 2:01 PM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 78 by Mission for Truth, posted 11-20-2004 4:28 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 78 of 84 (161892)
11-20-2004 4:28 PM
Reply to: Message 77 by Tony650
11-19-2004 3:24 PM


Re: Forgot Something
Hey Tony!
I always enjoy your posts, I always get a kick out of them - in a good way of course.
You were talking earlier about higher dimensions? You should read this article which was written by the theoretical physicist Michio Kaku. He writes beautifully, much like you do, and you can tell he's a smart guy. I find it's really easy to discern the smart ones even before they've said anything intelligent by the way they write. They just seem "clear", know what I mean?
Anyway, I'm sure you'll enjoy it, I did. You can read his other articles also, there's a menu on the side that have more.
Talk to ya again soon,
-Mission

This message is a reply to:
 Message 77 by Tony650, posted 11-19-2004 3:24 PM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 79 by Tony650, posted 11-21-2004 5:25 AM Mission for Truth has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 79 of 84 (162001)
11-21-2004 5:25 AM
Reply to: Message 78 by Mission for Truth
11-20-2004 4:28 PM


Re: Forgot Something
Mission for Truth writes:
Hey Tony!
Hey Mission!
Mission for Truth writes:
I always enjoy your posts, I always get a kick out of them - in a good way of course.
Thank you. I'm glad you enjoy them.
Mission for Truth writes:
You were talking earlier about higher dimensions?
Ah, indeed I was! *cough* Well, it didn't work on Mike, so let's see if you'll take the bait.
You may have read my thread already. But if you haven't, stop reading this and go there NOW!
......
Hey! What are you doing? I said go there now! Alright, fine then; keep reading. Perhaps when you finish reading this reply, little Mr. I'm-too-good-to-switch-threads-half-way-through-a-post.
But seriously, have you read that topic? If not, you're welcome to check it out, and by all means, feel free to contribute. It's turned out to be a rather...well..."lonely" thread (since I'm apparently the only nut who finds the topic interesting ) and I'd love to hear from you. If you feel so inclined, then please, dig in!
Mission for Truth writes:
You should read this article which was written by the theoretical physicist Michio Kaku.
Yes, I'm familiar with Dr. Kaku. I've been to his site numerous times (but thanks for the link). I've listened to an audio interview and read some of his material online, and I find his thoughts very interesting. Frustratingly, I haven't been able to find any of his books in local stores, but I have more than enough reading material to keep me busy for a while, so it's no big deal for the time being.
Mission for Truth writes:
He writes beautifully, much like you do...
Why thank you! I don't know what to say. I like to think that I'm reasonably articulate, but to have my writing compared to Dr. Kaku's is quite an honour. One that, frankly, I don't think I'm actually worthy of, mind you, but thank you none the less.
Mission for Truth writes:
...and you can tell he's a smart guy.
Yes indeed! He is quite brilliant, in my opinion. I think you have to be, to have an advanced understanding of his field, and especially to be able to explain it in a way that regular cretins...*cough*like me*cough*...can understand.
Mission for Truth writes:
I find it's really easy to discern the smart ones even before they've said anything intelligent by the way they write. They just seem "clear", know what I mean?
Yep, I know exactly what you mean. I've previously said, myself, that I believe a person's intelligence tends to show through in their writing.
Of course, there are exceptions. I don't think that incomprehensible writing, for example, necessarily indicates a lack of intelligence. Not that I would name any names, of course (Brad McFall). Wait...did I just think that or did I actually say it?
Seriously though, Brad is a good example of this, as I honestly think he is quite intelligent. Don't ask me how I arrived at that conclusion, mind you, but I think he is.
However, I would think that the reverse tends to be true more often. That is, clear, easily understood writing will usually be indicative of at least some aspect of intelligence.
Mission for Truth writes:
Anyway, I'm sure you'll enjoy it, I did. You can read his other articles also, there's a menu on the side that have more.
Yes, there's some good stuff there alright, and that article is indeed a good one for explaining some of the basic concepts in easy-to-understand ways.
Mission for Truth writes:
Talk to ya again soon,
-Mission
Will do.
Now, git yer ass to my thread already! Heh, just kidding, mate. Only if you want to.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 78 by Mission for Truth, posted 11-20-2004 4:28 PM Mission for Truth has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 80 by Mission for Truth, posted 11-21-2004 2:39 PM Tony650 has replied

  
Mission for Truth
Inactive Member


Message 80 of 84 (162080)
11-21-2004 2:39 PM
Reply to: Message 79 by Tony650
11-21-2004 5:25 AM


Re: Forgot Something
Well, I read your thread, and I gotta say I'm just as stumped as you are. I'm not sure if I can perceive extra dimensions either, but try this:
Imagine the Earth, now, zoom out wayyyyy out. Further, c'mon don't be afraid! Now.... you're at the "end" of the Universe and the Earth is well beyond a speck, in fact, if you did see a speck it would be universal in size compared to the Earth. Suddenly, you can preceive that you're moving, and fast! The Universe is still expanding, into what? Who knows, but it is. So, you're riding this "wave" of matter and when you see the Universe as a whole you suddenly see "outside", like when you're looking at those cool 3D pictures and you kind of have to cross you're eyes to get it and then as if by magic the hidden picture pops out at you. Now that you've crossed outside the Universe imagine everything you see being contained in a cylindrical object, like a strand of hair (a really big one) that, let's say, someone is holding. I don't even know if that is creating extra dimensions, but I think to picture it you'd have to do something like that.
One more example:
It might help to picture the universe as a bubble. You travel to the "end" of the bubble and step outside. If the theory of parallel universes is correct (my personal facination) then you'll see other bubbles (you probably wouldn't but let's forget the actual details and pretend, for example sake). Now, these universes are all lined up, like a string of beads, they may be oscillating up and down like a wave function, or they may be lined up into a ring shape. Let's say they are. From an even bigger vantage point the bubble universes in the rings will probably just look like a solid ring. But, we know they aren't. If we think back now to someone standing on Earth there is no way they'd be able to preceive this because it's way too big, their own universe is way too big.
You know what, now that I think about it, I don't think that creates extra dimensions. But I feel to get a grasp on it you'd have to mentally project like that to get any clues.
I dunno, lol, I tried, tell me what you think.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 79 by Tony650, posted 11-21-2004 5:25 AM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 81 by Tony650, posted 11-24-2004 2:21 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 81 of 84 (162964)
11-24-2004 2:21 PM
Reply to: Message 80 by Mission for Truth
11-21-2004 2:39 PM


Re: Forgot Something
Mission for Truth writes:
Well, I read your thread...
Did you read through it all? Just curious; it's fine if you didn't.
Mission for Truth writes:
...and I gotta say I'm just as stumped as you are.
Indeed. To be completely honest, I don't like my chances of ever gaining a true comprehension of this one. I've only come across a few people who can do it.
Rrhain was the first I encountered (that I am aware of) and we all know that his mathematical abilities are sightly superior to mine...*cough*...just slightly. I've since come across a few others online (although I've been unable to contact them; email problems...grr) and they always appear to be math and/or physics majors. That does not bode well for my chances, I'm afraid.
But hey, it sure as hell won't stop me from trying.
Mission for Truth writes:
You know what, now that I think about it, I don't think that creates extra dimensions.
Heh, not really. Good attempt, though.
Mission for Truth writes:
But I feel to get a grasp on it you'd have to mentally project like that to get any clues.
Perhaps so.
It's a tough one because, in a very real way, we perceive four dimensions all the time. Any three-dimensional space/body with duration can be defined by four co-ordinates. It's just that only three of them are spatial; the other is, of course, temporal.
The difficulty is in trying to divorce our minds from the necessity of time and visualize all four in terms of space alone. However visualizing anything without time seems to be just as hard as visualizing four spatial dimensions.
As I explained to Mike earlier in this thread, the only way I can imagine doing it involves leaving time as time, and simply adding an extra spatial dimension (which would result in five-dimensional space-time). Unfortunately, this just puts us back at square one; visualizing what we already have, plus one more spatial dimension. Argh! Circles! I'm going in circles!
Mission for Truth writes:
I dunno, lol, I tried, tell me what you think.
I think you have some interesting ideas, and in my quest to comprehend higher dimensions, I have previously attempted visualizations along these lines. Unfortunately, no matter how I picture it, the image in my mind is always trapped in 3D space.
Sometimes I feel as though I am just teetering on the edge of "getting it" but I never quite seem to pull it off. I swear there have been moments, during deep thought and intense focus on the concept, that I have "felt" that it was sitting right there, just waiting for me to manifest it in my mind. But I've never been able to. No matter how close I "feel" I am, I just can't quite bring the image into focus.
I will feel that I am ready to take the final step. I know what has to be done, I know what consequences it will have, I know how it will affect the image in my head, I understand the principle of what I'm about to do, so I go to do it and...I can't. That final step, as straightforward as the principle may seem, just refuses to execute. No matter how hard I try, I simply cannot make it happen.
It's so frustrating. It's like looking at a really blurry picture. You can almost see it, but not quite. It's right there but you just can't quite make it out. There are times that it almost feels like my brain does perform the final step, but half-way between firing neurons it simply stops, leaving the visualization just short of being realized.
Just to be clear, I know that doesn't actually happen; it was merely an attempt to describe how very close I feel I get sometimes. And the operative word there is, of course, "feel." It's quite possible that I am, in fact, nowhere near what I occasionally perceive to be the answer staring me in the face.
All I can say is that, based on what I know about the properties of dimension, there are times that I do feel as though I am within grabbing range. More than that, there are times that I feel like I actually have it in my hand, and I just can't close my fist. Unlike Rrhain, I seem unable to make that "visual leap" no matter how close it feels.
Ugh, that was a bit of a rant! Sorry about that. Never, ever say anything about dimensions around me; it just sets me off.
Heh, nah talk about them all you want; I love them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 80 by Mission for Truth, posted 11-21-2004 2:39 PM Mission for Truth has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 82 of 84 (164886)
12-03-2004 11:46 AM
Reply to: Message 76 by Tony650
11-19-2004 3:14 PM


Re: lol
Very, very bad dreams. Not nightmares, you understand; "bad" dreams. Painful, agonizing, suffocating, paralysing dreams. My mind seems determined to make me keep reliving things over and over again
Ever tried meditation, as prescribed by Tuvok from Star trek voyager? ...No seriously though - I tried meditation and positive thinking once, it does work. That, mixed with Bruce Lee philosophy. Man, I love Bruce Lee. AM I ranting here?
The "other" Tony? Erm...alright I'm even more confused now than I was before.
Sorry mate, I know I'm going to feel like a total dork when I finally get it but I'm afraid I still don't.
You're so sensitive, that when the wind blows, the other Tony becomes vertical. *It's rude*. (Sorry, I'm very bad).
I'll teach you! Heh, as if I'm an expert on the topic
Funnily enough Tony, I had a dream - believe it or not, that you were actually teaching me how to see other dimensions. You'd worked it out from this whacking great big machine that folded and twisted, and was hexagon-like. Ofcourse, it was a silly dream, following the lines of the folding metal made me "see" another dimension, Lmao..Like with those 3D pictures mission of truth mentioned.
They...don't...
They...
...don't...
...interest you?
...
BLASPHEMY!!
ROFLAMAO. I'm excommunicated from the dimensional brethren, and pope Tony, who worships Lord Rrhain.
Honestly, though, the basic principles are fairly simple, it's their logical consequences that enter the realm of the mind-bending
Tony, I'm a slow guy of average IQ, who's easily confused.
Now, rant - cos I do enjoy them. And I see on the bottom of the "list all topics" page, that you lurk online a lot. Lol. Tony the lurker.
PS. Sorry for being away so long.
This message has been edited by mike the wiz, 12-03-2004 11:50 AM

This message is a reply to:
 Message 76 by Tony650, posted 11-19-2004 3:14 PM Tony650 has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 83 by Tony650, posted 12-05-2004 11:36 AM mike the wiz has replied

  
Tony650
Member (Idle past 4032 days)
Posts: 450
From: Australia
Joined: 01-30-2004


Message 83 of 84 (165334)
12-05-2004 11:36 AM
Reply to: Message 82 by mike the wiz
12-03-2004 11:46 AM


Re: lol
Mike writes:
Ever tried meditation...
I used to meditate, years ago. However, I haven't tried it for this particular problem. Could be worth a shot.
Mike writes:
...as prescribed by Tuvok from Star trek voyager?
Haw! I love that show! I always thought that Seven and Tuvok should get married; they're made for each other.
Seven of Nine: "Commander Chakotay's face became flushed as he spoke with her. What does that signify?"
Tuvok: "I prefer not to engage in idle speculation. It is a dangerous pastime."
Mike writes:
That, mixed with Bruce Lee philosophy. Man, I love Bruce Lee.
Oh yes. Eastern philosophy, in general, is quite interesting, and Bruce was in a league all his own. Frankly, much of what he wrote was too deep for me, but then it has been years since I read any of it; perhaps it would make more sense to me now that I'm older and wiser (well, older anyway).
Mike writes:
AM I ranting here?
Not yet...but let's see what else you've got.
Mike writes:
You're so sensitive, that when the wind blows, the other Tony becomes vertical. *It's rude*. (Sorry, I'm very bad).
Believe it or not, I actually thought of that, but I dismissed it as I've...well...never heard it referred to as "Tony." Another Liverpool expression, baba?
Mike writes:
Funnily enough Tony, I had a dream - believe it or not, that you were actually teaching me how to see other dimensions.
Seriously? Heh, there's a case of the blind leading the blind, if ever I've heard one. I could teach you the principles of their construction, but I'm not sure how I would go about teaching you what they actually look like, as I don't know, myself.
Mike writes:
You'd worked it out from this whacking great big machine that folded and twisted, and was hexagon-like. Ofcourse, it was a silly dream, following the lines of the folding metal made me "see" another dimension...
Argh! I wanna see!
Unfortunately, any machine that we could build in three dimensions of space would be hard pressed to "show" us what higher dimensions look like because our eyes would still be limited by the two-dimensional images cast on our retinas.
I would imagine that for us to actually see a 4D spatial manifold (that is, a 3D image with true 4D perspective, as we see a 2D image with 3D perspective) we would require retinas with three-dimensional "surfaces." That's the only way I can see (no pun intended) that the whole image could "fit" all at once, allowing us to see it, in its entirety.
This is why I believe the only way that we (three-dimensional creatures) will ever be able to "see" higher dimensions is in our minds. Our minds need not be limited by the physical constraints that our eyes necessarily are. It's a shame, but failing the ability to somehow dimensionally alter our eyes, I don't see any way around this.
Our ability to physically see (as opposed to mentally see) higher dimensions is actually something I've addressed elsewhere. If you're interested, I describe what I think we would "see" if cast into 4D space, and explain my reasoning more thoroughly in this post.
Mike writes:
Lmao..Like with those 3D pictures mission of truth mentioned.
Stereograms? The difference is that, with those, you are trying to see something that is already there, in its entirety. All of the data is present; you're looking at everything you need. This doesn't mean, of course, that they will necessarily be easy to see, but everything you need to do so is already visible.
Higher dimensions, though, require a "visual leap" (to quote Rrhain) in the sense that you have to visually add something new that isn't already there. And as if that's not bad enough, what you have to add just happens to be something that you've never seen before. That certainly doesn't make things any easier.
Mike writes:
ROFLAMAO. I'm excommunicated from the dimensional brethren, and pope Tony, who worships Lord Rrhain.
Haw haw! The Fellowship of Logic and Dimensionalism. Rrhain is the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of thy mathematical ignorance, out of the house of confusion. Thou shalt have no other dimensional gurus before Him.
We may consider your re-admission if you are willing to renounce your heretical behaviour. *grumbles* "They don't interest you..."
Mike writes:
Tony, I'm a slow guy of average IQ, who's easily confused.
Oh come now. Credit where credit is due.
Mike writes:
Now, rant - cos I do enjoy them.
Well, I'm glad that you do. Here it is; enjoy!
Mike writes:
And I see on the bottom of the "list all topics" page, that you lurk online a lot. Lol. Tony the lurker.
Indeed I do. To be honest, I'm still not really out of "lurker mode." I was, after all, purely a lurker on here for the better part of two and a half years and it does feel kind of strange now actually being a part of EvC (albeit a small part).
I am still largely a lurker, though, in the sense that I mostly just read the discussions and very rarely get involved in any. In fact, sometimes I get so involved in reading the various threads that I forget to reply to people that I am talking to.
Incidentally, you say you've seen that I "lurk online a lot"...does the "Currently online" list actually clock your time on the forum or something? Or did you just mean that you've seen me online a lot? Just wondering if I've missed any other changes that have been made to the forum recently.
Mike writes:
PS. Sorry for being away so long.
That's quite alright; you owe me no apology. We all have real lives. Well, I don't, but I realize that most people do.
Good to see you back, in any case.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 82 by mike the wiz, posted 12-03-2004 11:46 AM mike the wiz has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 84 by mike the wiz, posted 12-06-2004 5:39 PM Tony650 has not replied

  
mike the wiz
Member
Posts: 4752
From: u.k
Joined: 05-24-2003


Message 84 of 84 (165730)
12-06-2004 5:39 PM
Reply to: Message 83 by Tony650
12-05-2004 11:36 AM


Re: lol
Lol. I actually remember that episode of voyager you mentioned. Tuvok's the best character IMO.
and Bruce was in a league all his own.
I agree there. I especially like his films, Way of the dragon and the Big Boss. His skill was just extraordinary.
...well...never heard it referred to as "Tony." Another Liverpool expression, baba?
Ahaha, actually I just picked it up - don't know where.
Our ability to physically see (as opposed to mentally see) higher dimensions is actually something I've addressed elsewhere. If you're interested, I describe what I think we would "see" if cast into 4D space,
Thanks, I enjoyed the part about a 1d critter, lol. Ofcourse, when it comes to these things, I hardly understand. In the visual IQ test, I fail miserably.
Haw haw! The Fellowship of Logic and Dimensionalism. Rrhain is the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of thy mathematical ignorance, out of the house of confusion. Thou shalt have no other dimensional gurus before Him.
Lol. And thou shalt obey the commands of Tony, his Highpriest - and follow the dimensional discourse thread untill thou dost die the death of boredom. (Awww...only kiddin' baba).
Argh! I wanna see!
Lol, we know Tony - WE KNOW!!!!!! - but I'm hopelessly helpless with this dimension lark,. but the dream was good. Which makes me think - is cyberspace another dimension? Because in my dream, you were not a physical being - I just was "aware" of you, as I don't know how you physically are. Lol.
Incidentally, you say you've seen that I "lurk online a lot"...does the "Currently online" list actually clock your time on the forum or something?
I think if you log on, the system then detects your online activity perios. I see your name on the list a lot though. Interestingly - I seen Sylas's name there - so if my hypothesis is right, he logged on for a time at this forum... Hmmmmm. *Columbo mode*.
BTW - I honestly do only register as average in IQ's.
Thanks for the welcome back. Regards, mike.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 83 by Tony650, posted 12-05-2004 11:36 AM Tony650 has not replied

  
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