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Author Topic:   The "Circle of the Earth"
arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 211 of 307 (428147)
10-14-2007 11:23 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by simple
10-14-2007 2:40 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
I supported the bejesiz out of it six ways from Sunday. God has wheels. Your denial is getting petty.
what part of this don't you get? nobody's talking about ezekiel. nobody. only you. you have to support that ezekiel has anything to do with this verse, which you have not. demonstrate that this "circle" is the merkabah (which is composed of at least 8 circles or maybe 4 sphere, and 4 angels) instead of the far more obvious plain literal reading.
Big talk for saying absolutely nothing! I substantiated a case for what the circle of the earth likely is from the bible.
really now. did you also prove that the sky is blue, and apples come from appletrees? of course it's from the bible. we're reading the bible. isaiah is in the bible.
I haven't seen you bring anything from Isaiah to back up a case, if you even have one.
...and again. the fact that i translated it from the original doesn't count as bringing anything to the table. the fact that i talked about how meaning can be inferred based on parallelism and context doesn't count either. real literary study is just bullshit to you, isn't it?
well, the holy spirit still says you're wrong. he'd also like to talk to you about whoever the heck you're listening to -- he thinks it could be demonic in nature. don't look at me, that's just what he says.
Mine is clear, I don't even know what yours is. The more you talk, the foggier it becomes. Stop trying to impress us, and make a case, or get off the pot.
i know you don't know what i point is. that has been evident from your very first post in this thread. i made my point many pages ago. i even linked you to it. you don't happen to think that study is worthwhile, so you ignored it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 204 by simple, posted 10-14-2007 2:40 AM simple has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 284 by simple, posted 11-16-2007 9:54 PM arachnophilia has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 212 of 307 (428148)
10-14-2007 11:30 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by simple
10-14-2007 3:36 AM


thou hypocrite
No, I think your doubts are not founded on reality of any kind. God inspired the compilation of the records we had. No better way exists to learn about His plan, and message.
except, of course, your way. you make claims like this, and totally fail to back them up in practice. if you think the bible is a good way to learn about the plan and message of god -- for god's sake, and your own, read it. learn about it. study it. understand it -- in context. learn about the language and history of the people who wrote it.
until you do that, your words are utterly meaningless. hypocritical. you pretend to honor this book, but you just use it as a trump card, and a quote-mine source, to support your silly non-biblical, non-sensical arguments.
no, your way of learning about god's plan and message is to claim the holy spirit told you so, and what the text actually says be damned. it means whatever you think you can get away with. and if those who have actually read, thought about, understood, and bothered to learn the language and culture don't see your obvious genius, then they just didn't get their Holy SpiritTM decoder rings in their box of Holy Bible(R) brand cracker jacks.


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 Message 206 by simple, posted 10-14-2007 3:36 AM simple has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 213 of 307 (428149)
10-14-2007 11:33 PM
Reply to: Message 209 by Chiroptera
10-14-2007 3:40 PM


yeshayahu
we have no idea of knowing whether or not isaiah was a real person.
In fact, I believe that the consensus is that at least two people were responsible for writing Isaiah.
more like three. isaiah was probably a real person, and his words were written down by his scribes, or disciples. at least one of the "other" isaiah seems to be a completely different person (some have suggested his son?) but there's really not very much in the way of evidence for any of that other than textual flavor.
"evidence for the existance of isaiah" is about the same category as "evidence for the existance of jesus." somebody wrote the books, and that's about it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 209 by Chiroptera, posted 10-14-2007 3:40 PM Chiroptera has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 214 of 307 (428150)
10-14-2007 11:35 PM
Reply to: Message 210 by tsig
10-14-2007 6:07 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
"Absolute bunk. God having wheels and a mobile throne does not make the earth flat. And there can be no denying that it was God in the wheels and throne. You should know that. "
Your conception of god riding around in a mobile chair hovering above the earth is really funny.
for reference, simple is talking about the merkabah found in ezekiel 1, god's chariot. i've suggested he make a thread about that, as that is his latest pet red-herring to bring up in every other thread he participates in.
maybe i'll have to do it.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 210 by tsig, posted 10-14-2007 6:07 PM tsig has not replied

Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 215 of 307 (428162)
10-15-2007 2:31 AM


Test
This topic/forum has not been automatically updating when a new message is posted. I have done rebuilds at "control central" twice now. We shall now see if it rebuilds by itself.
Adminnemooseus

Replies to this message:
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Adminnemooseus
Administrator
Posts: 3974
Joined: 09-26-2002


Message 216 of 307 (428163)
10-15-2007 2:44 AM
Reply to: Message 215 by Adminnemooseus
10-15-2007 2:31 AM


Test again
Still not automatically rebuilding. Page will not reload after new message is posted. Will do yet another rebuild (if needed) after posting this.
Adminnemooseus

This message is a reply to:
 Message 215 by Adminnemooseus, posted 10-15-2007 2:31 AM Adminnemooseus has not replied

Admin
Director
Posts: 12998
From: EvC Forum
Joined: 06-14-2002
Member Rating: 2.3


Message 217 of 307 (428207)
10-15-2007 11:11 AM


Test Post
Just testing...

--Percy
EvC Forum Director

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 218 of 307 (429688)
10-21-2007 11:12 AM
Reply to: Message 197 by arachnophilia
10-13-2007 3:32 PM


Re: tohu/bohu
Very Good. Thank you.
I was wondering why there was no reply. Was waiting for an email reply. Had even come looking for it once to no avail.
While we are on the subject of Hebrew ... Recently I was pretty much forced into acquiring a new computer. It uses Vista, of course, which, for some reason, does not seem to provide or support the SLHebrew and SLGreek fonts which I have depended upon for many years. Know anything about that? I searched the web a bit and found nothing on the subject. Tried to download the fonts as freeware but with no success. Any experience? Tips?
I would appreciate assistance from any knowing person who might happen to be reading this.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 197 by arachnophilia, posted 10-13-2007 3:32 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 220 by arachnophilia, posted 10-22-2007 1:10 AM doctrbill has not replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 219 of 307 (429692)
10-21-2007 11:44 AM
Reply to: Message 196 by petrophysics1
10-13-2007 1:11 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
petrophysics writes:
God being upon or above it would still give him the same grasshopper view.
Not to put too fine a point on it - it is poetry after all but the height, at which people might seem like grasshoppers to the unaided eye, is far lower than what the ancients imagined to be the height of the firmament. To me, this suggests some interpretation other than that of the deity looking down from a position "upon" the circle and favors one consistent with "above" it.
From a few hundred feet overhead, people do indeed "seem as grasshoppers" but climb a little higher and they disappear entirely. This phenomenon one may observe from the comfort of a small aircraft.
In such case, we may look to the horizon as the circle in question. This perspective inherits no altitude limitation, as does the alternative, and allows for the deity to be viewing humanity from the top of a temple tower such as people of the time were wont to create as housing for their gods.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by petrophysics1, posted 10-13-2007 1:11 PM petrophysics1 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 221 by arachnophilia, posted 10-22-2007 1:12 AM doctrbill has replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 220 of 307 (429847)
10-22-2007 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 218 by doctrbill
10-21-2007 11:12 AM


Re: tohu/bohu
Recently I was pretty much forced into acquiring a new computer. It uses Vista, of course, which, for some reason, does not seem to provide or support the SLHebrew and SLGreek fonts which I have depended upon for many years. Know anything about that? I searched the web a bit and found nothing on the subject. Tried to download the fonts as freeware but with no success. Any experience? Tips?
sorry, can't help you there. it doesn't come with basic unicode?


This message is a reply to:
 Message 218 by doctrbill, posted 10-21-2007 11:12 AM doctrbill has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 221 of 307 (429849)
10-22-2007 1:12 AM
Reply to: Message 219 by doctrbill
10-21-2007 11:44 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
From a few hundred feet overhead, people do indeed "seem as grasshoppers" but climb a little higher and they disappear entirely. This phenomenon one may observe from the comfort of a small aircraft.
or a UFO.
In such case, we may look to the horizon as the circle in question. This perspective inherits no altitude limitation, as does the alternative, and allows for the deity to be viewing humanity from the top of a temple tower such as people of the time were wont to create as housing for their gods.
the way i see it, the horizon is the place the dome of the heavens meets the eart. the object that encompasses, circles, the earth is the dome. i think it might be referring to that.


This message is a reply to:
 Message 219 by doctrbill, posted 10-21-2007 11:44 AM doctrbill has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 222 by doctrbill, posted 10-22-2007 11:37 AM arachnophilia has replied

doctrbill
Member (Idle past 2765 days)
Posts: 1174
From: Eugene, Oregon, USA
Joined: 01-08-2001


Message 222 of 307 (429906)
10-22-2007 11:37 AM
Reply to: Message 221 by arachnophilia
10-22-2007 1:12 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
arachnophilia writes:
the way i see it, the horizon is the place the dome of the heavens meets the eart. the object that encompasses, circles, the earth is the dome. i think it might be referring to that.
The word chugg, appearing only three times in the Scripture, is not translated "firmament" by any version I have yet found, although "circuit of heaven" (Job 22:14) does seem to suggest something more elevated, the ecliptic perhaps.
At Proverbs 8:27 we seem to have a clear indication that chugg (compass) is about the horizon, {emphasis mine}
quote:
"When he prepared the heavens, I [was] there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:"
At least two modern versions here give chugg as "horizon" (NIV & NLT).
The firmament, or "dome", is not actually a circular construct and aside from what may seem like a suggestion to that effect at Job 22:14, we have the more apparent interpretation observed at Proverbs 8:27. That said, and considering the difficulties encountered while attempting to defend the notion that this circle is the firmament, I find the aforementioned alternative more plausible. And, I understand why mainstream translators may be reluctant to commit that possibility to print, especially when they consider the issues it may raise with audiences who are steeped in the traditional rendering.

Theology is the science of Dominion.
- - - My God is your god's Boss - - -

This message is a reply to:
 Message 221 by arachnophilia, posted 10-22-2007 1:12 AM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 223 by arachnophilia, posted 10-22-2007 8:35 PM doctrbill has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 223 of 307 (429970)
10-22-2007 8:35 PM
Reply to: Message 222 by doctrbill
10-22-2007 11:37 AM


Re: The circle of the earth
The firmament, or "dome", is not actually a circular construct
yes and no. at the point where it meets the earth, it is. it is a hemi-spherical dome. technically, the word implies encircling something. "horizon" might work. it's just that in the hebrew cosmology, the horizon is made by the pillars of heaven. and the verse strongly implies imagery of god being above looking down, and imagery of tents and such. it's not... very clear. i admit. and this is just my best educated guess in the matter. i could be wrong.
(but it's not a UFO! lol)
Edited by arachnophilia, : formatting


This message is a reply to:
 Message 222 by doctrbill, posted 10-22-2007 11:37 AM doctrbill has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 224 by heraldys, posted 10-29-2007 6:14 PM arachnophilia has replied

heraldys
Junior Member (Idle past 1307 days)
Posts: 2
Joined: 10-29-2007


Message 224 of 307 (431186)
10-29-2007 6:14 PM
Reply to: Message 223 by arachnophilia
10-22-2007 8:35 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
I believe that there was no time before the beginning. God created it. We have to understand that the words "And there was evening and there was morning"(NASB), for each of the 6 days of creation must be understood as "there was the eve of a creation, and then there was the beginning of the thing created". It is why it is not mentionned anything about the "evening" before the 7th day, contrary to the 6 days of creation; because the 7th day had no eve, because it was not created, but was the rest, the result of the whole creation having longed "6 days". Now, these 6 days of creation did not long 24 hours each, nor 1000 years each, not even millions of years, because there was not any matter of time, yet, till God decided to create it, for His relations with beings. There was no time before He created it, because God doesn't need time for Himself. He has time in His hand. No time passes over Him, through Him, under Him. Because He is eternal. Now, concerning the circle of the earth, it is written, in Job 26:10 (Look at the NASB Version, the Darby Version),
"He has inscribed a circle on the surface of the waters at the boundary of light and darkness."
and, in Proverbs 8:27,
"When He established the heavens, I was there, when He inscribed a circle on the face of the deep,"
These verses show that God created a circle around the earth. It is about this circle around the earth Isaiah speaks concerning the circle of the earth, as the circle that belong to the earth, around it. No matter of any sphere. Isaiah speaks about what this circle represents, its relation with the planet, not about the shape of the Earth. Now this circle means the Alpha and Omega, the eternity, the beginning and the end, as the beginning merges with the end in a circle. It is to be understood spiritually and, relatively, physically.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 223 by arachnophilia, posted 10-22-2007 8:35 PM arachnophilia has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 225 by arachnophilia, posted 10-30-2007 11:32 PM heraldys has not replied

arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 225 of 307 (431417)
10-30-2007 11:32 PM
Reply to: Message 224 by heraldys
10-29-2007 6:14 PM


Re: The circle of the earth
hello heraldys, welcome to evc.
I believe that there was no time before the beginning. God created it. We have to understand that the words "And there was evening and there was morning"(NASB), for each of the 6 days of creation must be understood as "there was the eve of a creation, and then there was the beginning of the thing created". It is why it is not mentionned anything about the "evening" before the 7th day, contrary to the 6 days of creation; because the 7th day had no eve, because it was not created, but was the rest, the result of the whole creation having longed "6 days".
i do not disagree with the majority of this statement, but interpretation of the 7 days of creation is not the topic for this thread.
Now, these 6 days of creation did not long 24 hours each, nor 1000 years each, not even millions of years, because there was not any matter of time, yet, till God decided to create it, for His relations with beings. There was no time before He created it, because God doesn't need time for Himself. He has time in His hand. No time passes over Him, through Him, under Him.
there is a problem with this point, however. genesis 1 is primarily about the creation of time, and the separation and organization thereof. that is why things are phrased as "days" leading to a week, ending with shabat. the days are necessarily standard days, because genesis 1 is the model (or rather, etiology) for the week.
These verses show that God created a circle around the earth. It is about this circle around the earth Isaiah speaks concerning the circle of the earth, as the circle that belong to the earth, around it. No matter of any sphere. Isaiah speaks about what this circle represents, its relation with the planet, not about the shape of the Earth
well, yes and no. it is part and parcel with the description of the hebrew cosmology. the "circle" of the earth is it's boundary -- the horizon.


This message is a reply to:
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