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Author Topic:   Apparently, Just One More Parlor Trick
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 31 of 42 (98304)
04-07-2004 12:56 AM
Reply to: Message 26 by berberry
04-06-2004 4:45 AM


"not needed"
There is the problem. That is your subjective opinion based upon the claims of previous posters.
The spit-mud miracle demands that nobody put Jesus into their "must be this way" box. Atheists do not believe in miracles anyway, so why the hoopla over a "unorthodox" one ?
IF you or I could figure Jesus out then He isn't God.
Preceding posters have described the miracle as entertainment.
Where is the entertainment ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 26 by berberry, posted 04-06-2004 4:45 AM berberry has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by berberry, posted 04-09-2004 3:35 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
SweeneyTodd
Inactive Member


Message 32 of 42 (98845)
04-09-2004 1:21 AM
Reply to: Message 4 by crashfrog
03-28-2004 6:32 PM


Outstanding! An AD&D reference. Absolutely outstanding, I salute you and Gary Gygax salutes you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 4 by crashfrog, posted 03-28-2004 6:32 PM crashfrog has replied

Replies to this message:
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crashfrog
Member (Idle past 1487 days)
Posts: 19762
From: Silver Spring, MD
Joined: 03-20-2003


Message 33 of 42 (98846)
04-09-2004 1:25 AM
Reply to: Message 32 by SweeneyTodd
04-09-2004 1:21 AM


An AD&D reference.
AD&D is apostasy. All must cleave to the 3rd Edition words of Tweet, Cook, and Williams or face the fires of perdition!

This message is a reply to:
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berberry
Inactive Member


Message 34 of 42 (98860)
04-09-2004 3:35 AM
Reply to: Message 31 by Cold Foreign Object
04-07-2004 12:56 AM


I feel like I'm arguing with Baghdad Bob!
WILLOWTREE bleats:
quote:
That is your subjective opinion based upon the claims of previous posters.
Subjective? How so? I say that if Jesus is indeed the son of God and is endowed with supernatural powers, then no clay-and-spit routine is necessary to heal blindness. If Jesus is not the son of God and is not endowed with supernatural powers, then no clay-and-spit routine ever could heal blindness. This reasoning is so irreducible that not even the simplest logic is required to perceive it.
Quit the bromides about my "subjective opinion" and explain to me how it is that the clay and spit routine could, under any circumstances whatsoever, possibly be necessary to Jesus in order that he might heal blindness.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-07-2004 12:56 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 35 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-09-2004 11:52 AM berberry has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 35 of 42 (98901)
04-09-2004 11:52 AM
Reply to: Message 34 by berberry
04-09-2004 3:35 AM


Re: I feel like I'm arguing with Baghdad Bob!
Berry :
I have supplied reasons why Jesus chose to heal this way. Until you acknowledge them I see no reason to repeat them. Or maybe you just don't like/accept what I said.

This message is a reply to:
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Corkscrew
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 42 (98907)
04-09-2004 12:18 PM
Reply to: Message 12 by Cold Foreign Object
03-31-2004 11:09 AM


Saturday....missing day?
The Passion of The Christ tells us that he was nailed on Friday; on Sunday he rolled back the rock and flew away. What was happening in that cave on Saturday? Were there any witnesses inside the cave...I'm not talking about people who might have been camping outside the place...I mean was there someone who had his or her eyes on the body all day Saturday: the 'sandwich' day? In any case could anyone peek inside, like through a gap where the boulder might not have been flush with the lip of the cave? And, did anyone inspect the place after He left? Was anything left behind? Robes, bandages, bodily fluids, graffiti, food, alcohol, notes, herbs or medicines?

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Brian
Member (Idle past 4979 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 37 of 42 (99623)
04-13-2004 6:19 AM
Reply to: Message 18 by Cold Foreign Object
04-03-2004 3:21 PM


Hi WT, hope you are well.
Then why did the gospel writer make this spit-mud miracle up ?
I didn't say that he made it up.
Why didn't the gospel writer just have Jesus speak the miracle into existence ?
Because Jesus audience would havebeen bored by that.
If the gospel writer is myth-making like you have claimed then this type of twist must hurt his story.
I never said it was a myth, I have no idea where you get this from.
The recording of this type of miracle indicates/demonstrates honesty on the part of the writer - he wrote what happened.
Yes, he wrote about Jesus' magic show, Jesus' obsession with being the centre of attraction, he loved the limelight, he played to the crowd 'look at me, look at me, how great am I?'
The basis of your criticism is a straw man, nay, more like a spectre argument, which is : because you do not know why Jesus chose to heal this way, therefore it must of never happened.
So this is a strawan of a strawman! I never said it didnt happen, I only asked: why the clay?
I don't believe in miracles, there is always an alternative explanation for everything.
If Jesus performed a "trick for entertainment" as you have described it, then where is the entertainment for anyone (including the blind person) in seeing someone get spit-mud smeared in their eyes ?
It is far more entertaining that someone walking into a room and saying' Hey you, you can see again', where is the entertainment in that. Jesus had to go through the razzamatazz, build the tension up in the audience, let them think 'is it gonna work or not', get them on the edge of their seats, they 'Hey presto' the 'stooge' can 'see' again, marvelous entertainment in first century Palestine, they had no Friends, Frazier or Coronation Street to watch in those days.
If Jesus is wise,
That is a very very big IF.
then He is smart enough to know that this is not entertainment.
This is great entertainment, Jesus healed people when he wasnt even in the same room as them, he didnt get any applause from the crowd so he was like a spoiled child, all upset, so he decided to make sure that everyone knew that it was him performing these parlour tricks.
Who would be entertained by the event in question ?
The semi educated ignorant morons who were stupid enough to think that Jesus was a god, who else?
Certainly no Jew would be dumb enough to think this was entertainment, and certainly no Jew would be dumb enough to be fooled by a trick like this ?
You cannot make these sweeping generalisations back through 2000 years, to claim that no Jew was ever fooled by a parlour trick is not something you can support. Apparently, there was at least 13 of them stupid enough to think Jesus was a god.
Brian.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 18 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-03-2004 3:21 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-13-2004 9:56 PM Brian has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 38 of 42 (99793)
04-13-2004 9:56 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Brian
04-13-2004 6:19 AM


Brian: I am well as the euphoria that you caused is still present. Thanks.
Back to business - ok ?
If the gospel writer is myth-making like you have claimed then this type of twist must hurt his story.
Brian quote :
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I never said it was a myth, I have no idea where you get this from.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
I got this from previous posts of yours that claim the N.T. writers were engaged in myth-making.
CA has completely ignored me on this, maybe you won't :
IF a parlour is a controlled environment specially prepared to deceive then isn't a public setting the most unlikely place to pull off such a stunt/trick/deception ?
Brian, why do you interpret the text to be the work of a magician ?
How is it that you cannot be fooled by the claims of Luke unlike a zillion other people ?
Why can't the text be accurate, rather, what is your evidence/rationale for Luke claiming a miracle was performed when it was a cruel trick ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Brian, posted 04-13-2004 6:19 AM Brian has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Brian, posted 04-15-2004 4:59 AM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Brian
Member (Idle past 4979 days)
Posts: 4659
From: Scotland
Joined: 10-22-2002


Message 39 of 42 (100170)
04-15-2004 4:59 AM
Reply to: Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object
04-13-2004 9:56 PM


HI WT,
I got this from previous posts of yours that claim the N.T. writers were engaged in myth-making.
Not everything they wrote was a myth, but most of it was.
IF a parlour is a controlled environment specially prepared to deceive then isn't a public setting the most unlikely place to pull off such a stunt/trick/deception ?
A parlour trick is a simple trick that victorians used ot do in their parlours to entertain each other. They were not that complex, they were simple childlike illusions.
Have you ever watched the street magicians on TV, they practise a lot before they go out on the streets, but their tricks are performed in public, usually with the member of the public in very close proximity to them.
Magicians were ten a penny in Jesus' day, even Simon Magus is mentioned in the Bible.
Brian, why do you interpret the text to be the work of a magician ?
Simple, because if Jesus was a god then he wouldn't need to go through all the showbiz stuff of building up the crowd, he wouldn't need to use props. He could just have cured people with a thought, he cured the roman centurion's servant at Capernaum without actually going to where the servant was.
He could have done the same with Lazarus, but he didn't, he just swanned around for a while before going back to raise Lazarus from the dead. Jesus clearly loved the attention that these tricks brought him.
How is it that you cannot be fooled by the claims of Luke unlike a zillion other people ?
A zillion other people are desparate to believe thats why.
Well it is a bit more comples than that of course, but many of these people have been indoctrinated from an early age, they have been conditioned into thinking that everything in the Bible is true, therefore this story is true.
NBot everyone approaches the text from a critical stance, many are too biased towards the Bible to stand back and criticise it, if the same story was attached to Muhammad then you would say it was nonsense.
Many people think because some of the story is plausible then all of it is 100% true, but this is a wrong approach. Parts of the tale may be true, but miracles do not happen, there is always another explanation. You also have to remember that Luke didnt know Jesus, Luke didn't witness Jesus doing anything at all, he was getting these stories from other people who undoubtedly exaggerated them.
Why can't the text be accurate, rather, what is your evidence/rationale for Luke claiming a miracle was performed when it was a cruel trick ?
The text can be accurate, but the conclusion doesnt need to be your one.
Evidence/rationale? Well evidence is that Luke wasn't an eyewitness, people exaggerate stories over time, the bible needs to be interpreted and this interpretation may not be accurate the blindness may have been metaphorical.
Rationale: Miracles do not happen, people who are blind do not suddenly see when they have had spit and mud rubbed on their eyes. Your ONLY source for this tale is from someone whose idol benefits from the telling of it, there are NO objective sources to anything Jesus did.
People played, and still do, cruel tricks on others all the time, they did it 2000 years ago and they do it now. Jesus didnt do any work related to his occupation in the stories we have in the Gospels, he had to make a living, being a magician must have brought a good living, he certainly appeared to get invited to people's houses for meals and it sure beats sawing wood for a living.
Brian.
PS, Did God lie to Ahab? YES or NO

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-13-2004 9:56 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 04-15-2004 4:58 PM Brian has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 40 of 42 (100271)
04-15-2004 4:58 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Brian
04-15-2004 4:59 AM


Brian : Allow me to answer the question about Ahab.
Did God lie ?
IF He IS God then whatever He does IS righteous.
Until you comprehend the meaning of the above statement no answer I supply can be accurate despite who might be asking the question.
The Pharisees attempted to trap Jesus in His words with their infamous question about taxes. This question of yours is similar in nature.
With that now said : God, from the text in question, lets everyone know the way He operates : Rebel against Him and He might make you believe something that is not true.
Hebrews 3 speaks about the "deceitfulness of sin". This means the worst ingredient that comes with sin is its ability to make you believe something that is not true. The essence of being decieved is that you believe something is true - BUT IT IS NOT TRUE.
The event of Ahab has God showing anyone who cares what He might do to those who give Him the finger. What God did to Ahab is the way God gives the finger back to those who flip Him off.
[This message has been edited by WILLOWTREE, 04-15-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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shyster27usa
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 42 (100517)
04-16-2004 11:26 PM
Reply to: Message 7 by ConsequentAtheist
03-29-2004 10:19 PM


Actually
the work performed by a doctor would not be prohibited because that is not the type of work that is prohibited. The type of work that is prohibited is "melachah." Which is, for example, the type of work that G-d would perform. For instance if a doctor cured a person a disease on the Shabbat it would be acceptable because his is not the work of G-d. If a Rabbi cured the same person of the same disease on the Shabbat it would be a violation because his is the work of G-d. The reason that it was a violation for Jesus to heal the sick on Shabbat is that he was not performing the type of work that a doctor would but the type G-d would.
This would also explain why the Jewish leaders were upset with what Jesus had done but not surprised by it. They realized that he was acting under divine power and not as a doctor. Why do you think the religious leaders would be surprised by the healing power of G-d?

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Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3068 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 42 of 42 (100587)
04-17-2004 2:48 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by shyster27usa
04-16-2004 11:26 PM


Re: Actually
But they were not surprised at miracle healing. They were surprised and enraged when Jesus forgave sins (rightfully so). Give the Jews credit - only God can forgive sins. If Jesus aint God He is a blasphemer.

This message is a reply to:
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