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Author Topic:   The 2016 United States Presidential Election
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(3)
Message 436 of 892 (794431)
11-15-2016 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by coffee_addict
11-11-2016 4:22 PM


Could be good for the Democrat Party
I blame the election result on Sanders for having pushed Clinton too far to the left.
And you would be wrong. Bernie told his followers to beat Trump by voting for Hillary, particularly in swing states.
The results show that the reason Hillary lost was that she did not get voters to the polls. Many people who voted left the presidential choice blank (see Michigan). She offered maintaining the status quo and the party elite corporatist programs, and people wanted something that would help them cope with lower real wages and declining middle class jobs.
Instead of moving to the left, as you think, she moved hard right and courted republican donors and endorsements. She chose another neo-liberal for VP instead of a progressive and she distanced herself from #blacklivesmatter and #NoDAPL. She refused to stand against fracking.
In the end her "program" amounted to "Vote for me because Trump" ... not realizing that most people saw this as the pot calling the kettle black.
SHE lost. Helped by the DINOs in the DNC that were also blind to the issues people wanted answers to. Real answers.
But this could be good for the democrat party, because now we can dismiss the neo-liberal agenda as a loser program and get back to the roots of working people, unions, minimum wages and middleclass jobs.
Enjoy

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


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This message is a reply to:
 Message 400 by coffee_addict, posted 11-11-2016 4:22 PM coffee_addict has not replied

  
RAZD
Member (Idle past 1405 days)
Posts: 20714
From: the other end of the sidewalk
Joined: 03-14-2004


(1)
Message 437 of 892 (794432)
11-15-2016 3:35 PM
Reply to: Message 400 by coffee_addict
11-11-2016 4:22 PM


History repeats ... because the lesson was not learned.
Ralph Nader was responsible for GWB. ...
Nope.
Al Gore lost because turnout was off markedly for democrats, much more than the number of people (independents, green party members and some democrats) that voted for Nader. He just didn't inspire people to go to the polls.
... Now, Sanders is responsible for Trump.
The Bernie Sanders who was campaigning for Clinton and not on the presidential ballots??? That Bernie Sanders???
Like Al Gore, Clinton lost because turnout was off markedly for democrats, worse than for Gore, and much more than the number of people (independents, green party members and some democrats) that voted for Jill Stein. She, like Gore, did not inspire voters to go to the polls. Period.
In fact you can say that Hillary repeated the mistake that Gore made, because she didn't learn the lesson of low turnout, because she blamed the wrong reason for his loss. Those that don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it (while we who have learned are doomed to watch it all over again).
Enjoy
Edited by RAZD, : .

we are limited in our ability to understand
by our ability to understand
RebelAmerican☆Zen☯Deist
... to learn ... to think ... to live ... to laugh ...
to share.


Join the effort to solve medical problems, AIDS/HIV, Cancer and more with Team EvC! (click)

This message is a reply to:
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Replies to this message:
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Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 438 of 892 (794437)
11-15-2016 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 433 by caffeine
11-15-2016 2:51 PM


Re: This too shall pass
caffeine writes:
The US is unique among western societies in providing healthcare through employers.
Not exactly. Most European countries have a compulsory health insurance paid for by employers.
I should have phrased that better, let me try again. I didn't mean to imply anything about where the funding for healthcare came from. The message I was trying to communicate is that in the US it's "No workie, no insurance," and many employers, especially small employers, don't provide health insurance anyway. And if you don't have a job then of course you don't have insurance, either. But much of Europe has universal health care, as does Canada.
The ACA (aka Obamacare) is an improvement over what came before. A few years ago I investigated what it would cost to replace my work-provided health insurance, and the answer was around $13,000/year. Obamacare tends to cost between $2500 and $5000 (after subsidies, as NoNukes points out), depending upon region and coverage level. There's a table of costs for the "Silver" level at this webpage that's interesting to peruse.
But it's still a case of haves and have-nots. The haves work for companies that provide healthcare, and the have-nots work for companies that don't provide healthcare or they're are not employed or in the family of someone employed. If the have-nots want insurance then they have to pay for it out of their own pockets.
But the haves don't have it as good as they used to. Until a couple decades ago companies that provided healthcare paid 100% of the insurance costs, but then they began asking employees to contribute part, and then a greater part, and then an even greater part, until in my last year of employment I was paying $5000/year for my company provided healthcare.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 439 of 892 (794438)
11-15-2016 8:32 PM
Reply to: Message 434 by NoNukes
11-15-2016 2:57 PM


Re: This too shall pass
NoNukes writes:
1) You did not mention the subsidy in your post. Thanks for clarifying.
You're very welcome!
2) The subsidy for a person with spouse making 40,000 in my neck of the woods is about $500 dollars per month in my neck of the woods, which suggests that something is not all that general about your calculation. I'm not sure exactly where you live, but checking the amount for a person with spouse in New Bedford MA generated a 173 dollar subsidy amount for a similarly situated person.
Isn't the higher subsidy in your neck of woods offset by the higher insurance costs? Anyway, maybe you have some unique situation in your area, but for most of the country I think the net cost is about the same within a relatively narrow range for the same coverage level.
3) You still did not mention the original mandate to cover the uninsured that most republican governors simply refused to adopt after the Supreme Court ruled that adoption was up to states.
Ah, yes, Scalia lives on.
--Percy

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Percy
Member
Posts: 22393
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 440 of 892 (794439)
11-15-2016 8:51 PM


This is Getting Worrisome
After Trump won my thinking was to wish him all the best in his presidency and to hope that it was successful, but now I'm seeing worrisome signs. The dropping of Governor Christie as head of the transition team was welcome given BridgeGate, but with the appointment of Steven K. Bannon as "chief strategist and senior counselor," and with the departure from the transition team of Mike Rogers and Matthew Freeman, who were advising on national security matters, there is now a much more insular and paranoid transition group.
Similarities to pre-WWII Germany are again apparent. When Hitler first became Chancellor in 1933 (a compromise appointment by president Hindenburg) he quickly consolidated power by purging the government of opposition voices. Trump seems to be doing this within his own team even before he takes power.
I'd like to give Trump a chance. I'm against the "Not My President" movement - it's much too sooon, and it's contrary to American principles of democratic government. But the early signs are already not encouraging.
--Percy

Replies to this message:
 Message 441 by jar, posted 11-15-2016 9:11 PM Percy has seen this message but not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 441 of 892 (794440)
11-15-2016 9:11 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Percy
11-15-2016 8:51 PM


Re: This is Getting Worrisome
How about Ebell as transition person for EPA and Mary Jo White leaving the SEC?

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
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Hyroglyphx
Inactive Member


Message 442 of 892 (794441)
11-15-2016 11:10 PM
Reply to: Message 440 by Percy
11-15-2016 8:51 PM


Re: This is Getting Worrisome
I'd like to give Trump a chance. I'm against the "Not My President" movement - it's much too sooon, and it's contrary to American principles of democratic government. But the early signs are already not encouraging.
I'm sure this will go down spectacularly in flames -- something akin to the Hindenburg. The good news is that my expectations are already so low that I can't really ever be disappointed. So there's that...

"Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it" -- Thomas Paine

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Minnemooseus
Member
Posts: 3941
From: Duluth, Minnesota, U.S. (West end of Lake Superior)
Joined: 11-11-2001
Member Rating: 10.0


Message 443 of 892 (794442)
11-15-2016 11:40 PM


Moose recap and new comments things Trump
I had a number of what I thought to be good little posts at the "Oh No, The New Awesome Primary Thread" topic.
EvC Forum: Oh No, The New Awesome Primary Thread
Those included the topic subtitle "Andrew Dice Clay + lots of money = Donald Trump" and the message "Doing the most epic stand-up comedy tour ever."
The joke was on the Republican party when Trump took the nomination.
The joke turned to be on Trump when he won the Presidency (related reading: Nonreligious Questions ).
Now my hopes are that Trump will turn the joke back onto the Republican Party - Renominate Merrick Garland as his choice for the Supreme Court.
Imagine if and when Trump starts treating members of Congress like he treated the other Republican candidates and Hillary.
Donald Trump is an egotistical asshole. The question is how much of the presentation is the real Donald and how much was the actor/comedian Donald?
Moose

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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(4)
Message 444 of 892 (794475)
11-16-2016 12:57 PM
Reply to: Message 437 by RAZD
11-15-2016 3:35 PM


Re: History repeats ... because the lesson was not learned.
Like Al Gore, Clinton lost because turnout was off markedly for democrats, worse than for Gore, and much more than the number of people (independents, green party members and some democrats) that voted for Jill Stein. She, like Gore, did not inspire voters to go to the polls. Period.
Hilary Clinton received more votes than any other Presidential candidate in the history of the United States except Obama. More than her husband, more than Bush, more than her opponent. Now, you could argue that Obama has set a new bar that a Democratic candidate should be expected to live up to, especially against such an opponent. But to claim that turnout was worse than for Gore is plainly false. She got about 12 million more votes than Gore did.

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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 445 of 892 (794481)
11-16-2016 2:12 PM
Reply to: Message 443 by Minnemooseus
11-15-2016 11:40 PM


Re: Moose recap and new comments things Trump
Moose writes:
The joke was on the Republican party when Trump took the nomination.
Moose writes:
Imagine if and when Trump starts treating members of Congress like he treated the other Republican candidates and Hillary.
I suspect that the people who voted for Trump are in for a rude awakening when they realize that the members of Congress ARE the establishment that they thought they were voting against.

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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 446 of 892 (794482)
11-16-2016 2:19 PM
Reply to: Message 445 by ringo
11-16-2016 2:12 PM


Re: Moose recap and new comments things Trump
ringo writes:
I suspect that the people who voted for Trump are in for a rude awakening when they realize that the members of Congress ARE the establishment that they thought they were voting against.
I fear you are wrong. Never underestimate the willful ignorance of Americans.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 445 by ringo, posted 11-16-2016 2:12 PM ringo has replied

Replies to this message:
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ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 447 of 892 (794483)
11-16-2016 2:26 PM
Reply to: Message 446 by jar
11-16-2016 2:19 PM


Re: Moose recap and new comments things Trump
jar writes:
Never underestimate the willful ignorance of Americans.
I try not to.

This message is a reply to:
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Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1445 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 448 of 892 (794485)
11-16-2016 2:30 PM
Reply to: Message 444 by caffeine
11-16-2016 12:57 PM


Re: History repeats ... because the lesson was not learned.
Hilary Clinton received more votes than any other Presidential candidate in the history of the United States except Obama
There is evidence that the election was rigged for Hillary at a number of locations, stealing five states, partly through three million votes by illegals, and still Trump won. Google "Bev Harris voting."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 444 by caffeine, posted 11-16-2016 12:57 PM caffeine has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 450 by caffeine, posted 11-16-2016 3:49 PM Faith has not replied
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Asgara
Member (Idle past 2303 days)
Posts: 1783
From: Wisconsin, USA
Joined: 05-10-2003


Message 449 of 892 (794486)
11-16-2016 2:42 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by Faith
11-16-2016 2:30 PM


Re: History repeats ... because the lesson was not learned.
Could we see some of that evidence?
Three million votes by illegals?

This message is a reply to:
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caffeine
Member (Idle past 1025 days)
Posts: 1800
From: Prague, Czech Republic
Joined: 10-22-2008


(1)
Message 450 of 892 (794496)
11-16-2016 3:49 PM
Reply to: Message 448 by Faith
11-16-2016 2:30 PM


Re: History repeats ... because the lesson was not learned.
There is evidence that the election was rigged for Hillary at a number of locations, stealing five states, partly through three million votes by illegals, and still Trump won. Google "Bev Harris voting."
If I was Hillary Clinton, and was trying to rig the election, I reckon I'd focus on Florida and Ohio, instead of wasting my time faking millions of wasted surplus votes in California and New York.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 448 by Faith, posted 11-16-2016 2:30 PM Faith has not replied

  
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