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Author Topic:   Answers to athiest's dum disputes
funkman
Inactive Member


Message 106 of 162 (99716)
04-13-2004 3:36 PM
Reply to: Message 105 by Dan Carroll
04-13-2004 12:15 PM


Re: Dan Breaks His Silence
The Jewish day runs from sundown to sundown. The evening before the first day of passover is the beginning of Passover. The meal referred to above would have been the first seder.
Ok. Thanks for clarifying that.
So if it happened before they arrived, who saw it, and was able to relate it to the authors of the Bible?
Umm.... God saw it. And God is the author of the Bible. He inspired men to actually write it down, but He is the ultimate author.
Bit of a cop-out, isn't it? "Trust me they've been disproved. No need to go into them."
Cop-out? No more than an evolutionist saying there is scads of evidence out there but not providing any links or any explanations. Come on.... do you actually expect me to write up a 200 page follow-up to that link so I can answer all 330 of them? I don't think you expected that at all. But when I did answer the one you pulled out at random and made a vaild claim that there are explanations for the others and offered to go into more of them if you wanted, you accuse me of copping-out?
Also, what you have put in quotes is very misrepresentative of what I actually said. I never said or even implied that there is no need to go into them. To the contrary, I offered to go through more of them if you like.
Uh... even if there were no contradictions, why would that be a reason to believe? To use an example from a previous post, Gone With the Wind is pretty solid on continuity, but I'd still be pretty dissapointed if I tried to find Rhett Butler's grave.
A pretty good analogy. However, Gone with the Wind doesn't claim to be a true story written by Almighty God. A story making these claims should obviously be treated a little more seriously than a good novel. And when that story makes no mistakes whatsoever, then it fairy reasonable to assume it is true.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 105 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-13-2004 12:15 PM Dan Carroll has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 107 by PaulK, posted 04-13-2004 3:44 PM funkman has not replied
 Message 108 by Coragyps, posted 04-13-2004 3:58 PM funkman has replied
 Message 109 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-13-2004 4:06 PM funkman has replied
 Message 117 by desdamona, posted 04-14-2004 7:47 AM funkman has not replied

PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 107 of 162 (99717)
04-13-2004 3:44 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by funkman
04-13-2004 3:36 PM


Re: Dan Breaks His Silence
A pretty good analogy. However, Gone with the Wind doesn't claim to be a true story written by Almighty God. A story making these
claims should obviously be treated a little more seriously than a good novel. And when that story makes no mistakes whatsoever, then it fairy reasonable to assume it is true.
The Bible doesn't make that claim either. The closest you will find is in 2 Timothy, which talks about *scripture* being inspired - but what does it mean by scripture ? Does 2 Timothy itself claim to be scripture or inspired ?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by funkman, posted 04-13-2004 3:36 PM funkman has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 108 of 162 (99720)
04-13-2004 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by funkman
04-13-2004 3:36 PM


Re: Dan Breaks His Silence
However, Gone with the Wind doesn't claim to be a true story written by Almighty God. A story making these claims should obviously be treated a little more seriously than a good novel.
So you regard the Qu'ran and the Book of Mormon as books you should treat seriously? How about L Ron Hubbard's stuff?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by funkman, posted 04-13-2004 3:36 PM funkman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 116 by desdamona, posted 04-14-2004 7:42 AM Coragyps has replied
 Message 120 by funkman, posted 04-14-2004 1:38 PM Coragyps has replied

Dan Carroll
Inactive Member


Message 109 of 162 (99723)
04-13-2004 4:06 PM
Reply to: Message 106 by funkman
04-13-2004 3:36 PM


Re: Dan Breaks His Silence
quote:
Umm.... God saw it. And God is the author of the Bible. He inspired men to actually write it down, but He is the ultimate author.
So how does this authorship work, exactly? I was under the impression that the gospels were supposed to be tales of eyewitness accounts, not divine transcription, direct from the mouth of God.
quote:
Cop-out? No more than an evolutionist saying there is scads of evidence out there but not providing any links or any explanations.
Uh... guy, links to very user-friendly explanations of evidence for evolution have been posted several times on this thread alone.
quote:
Come on.... do you actually expect me to write up a 200 page follow-up to that link so I can answer all 330 of them?
If you're going to claim that there are no contradictions in the bible... well, yeah. Because there's a big fat list of them that say you're wrong. I'm sorry there are so many, but the fact that backing up your statement is so daunting a task might not be something you want to throw around in defense of your position.
quote:
But when I did answer the one you pulled out at random and made a vaild claim that there are explanations for the others and offered to go into more of them if you wanted, you accuse me of copping-out?
I'm happy to go into others with you, sure. But I already posted them up. If you want to argue against them, ball's in your court. Pick one, let's get cracking.
I was simply saying that a blanket statement that the rest can be refuted doesn't cut it.
quote:
A pretty good analogy. However, Gone with the Wind doesn't claim to be a true story written by Almighty God. A story making these claims should obviously be treated a little more seriously than a good novel. And when that story makes no mistakes whatsoever, then it fairy reasonable to assume it is true.
This is fallacious. For instance, let me tell you a story.
I Am God, by Dan Carroll
I am God.
The End.
Copyright 2004 Dan Carroll Productions. Reprinted with permission of the author.
Furthermore, I claim that this story was written by Almighty God. (Me, as claimed in the story.) There are no logical inconsistencies in the story.
Should it be taken more seriously as fact than any other story? Of course not.

"Perhaps you should take your furs and your literal interpretations to the other side of the river."
-Anya

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by funkman, posted 04-13-2004 3:36 PM funkman has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 119 by funkman, posted 04-14-2004 1:31 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 110 of 162 (99796)
04-13-2004 10:05 PM
Reply to: Message 102 by desdamona
04-13-2004 10:21 AM


Re: YOU GO!!!
quote:
Just thought You might want to know that the passover holy day lasts 8 days.Was Jesus killed on the first day when they arrested him?
Thats a whole lot of activity for a day to me.
also note in the other verse it says about 6,not that it was 6 and not that it matters anyway.
There is no contradiction.
How can you read the quotes I posted and deny that there is a very clear contradiction!!??
In the first three Gospels, the Last Supper, that Jesus attends, is a Passover meal, but in John, Jesus is dead before Passover even begins.
It is a very, very, very clear contradition, unless you would like to explain to me how it isn't.
quote:
The bible is a very interesting book and it was meant to be this way,and it encourages us to search out the meaning of all scriptures.
Meaning? "Meaning" in the scriptures is a very different thing from "historical accuracy" of the scriptures, or from "internal consistency" of the scriptures.
What the scriptures "mean" is irrelevant to your claim that there are no contradictions.
While I would say that the Bible is chock full of all sorts of contradictions, it is full of meaning.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 102 by desdamona, posted 04-13-2004 10:21 AM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 112 by desdamona, posted 04-14-2004 6:17 AM nator has replied

nator
Member (Idle past 2170 days)
Posts: 12961
From: Ann Arbor
Joined: 12-09-2001


Message 111 of 162 (99799)
04-13-2004 10:17 PM
Reply to: Message 103 by desdamona
04-13-2004 10:30 AM


Re: YOU GO!!!
You didn't answer my question, Des...
Since you do accept that DNA paternity tests are reliable and accurate, do you also accept that exactly the same techniques are used by scientists to determine how genetically similar species are to each other?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 103 by desdamona, posted 04-13-2004 10:30 AM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 113 by desdamona, posted 04-14-2004 6:55 AM nator has replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 112 of 162 (99884)
04-14-2004 6:17 AM
Reply to: Message 110 by nator
04-13-2004 10:05 PM


Re: YOU GO!!!
No, you have it wrong again.
Jesus was crucified after passover as Mt.,Mk; and Luke tell us.
all these accounts tell us he was eating the passover so he couldn't have been crucified before.With John it seems he was crucified before,as it speaks of the lambs for passover when when he's on the tree and the jewish leadership didn't want to be defiled,
but those Lambs weren't the Passover meal lambs,they were the passover special offerings that are given the day after the passover meal.They are called hagiga,or special offerings for passover
Num.28:17 On the 15th day of this month shall be a feast,unleavened bread shall be eaten for 7 days.
Num.28:19 You shall present an offering by fire,a burnt offering to Yahveh;two bulls and one ram and 7 male lambs one year old,having them without defect.
also,there were "special" personal offerings of lambs.
[This message has been edited by desdamona, 04-14-2004]

Desdamona*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 110 by nator, posted 04-13-2004 10:05 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 128 by coffee_addict, posted 04-14-2004 4:34 PM desdamona has not replied
 Message 141 by nator, posted 04-14-2004 10:28 PM desdamona has not replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 113 of 162 (99889)
04-14-2004 6:55 AM
Reply to: Message 111 by nator
04-13-2004 10:17 PM


Re: YOU GO!!!
while I do believe that people and animals came from the same source
meaning "a Creator",I don't think it can say that a rabbit is a close cousin to a horse,but I haven't heard anyone mad enough to try
and claim that yet.
Some claim they have been able to clone people,who knows? but they cannot use animals to help them do it.
Dolly the sheep they claim still got her DNA from sheep.
Do clones prove God is not real?
Has a clone ever been made outside of the body?
manipulating creation will prove to everyone one day what will happen.
babies are made all the time with in-vitro and other ways.That doesn't prove God doesn't exist.

Desdamona*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 111 by nator, posted 04-13-2004 10:17 PM nator has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 114 by Denesha, posted 04-14-2004 7:23 AM desdamona has replied
 Message 142 by nator, posted 04-14-2004 10:46 PM desdamona has not replied

Denesha
Inactive Member


Message 114 of 162 (99892)
04-14-2004 7:23 AM
Reply to: Message 113 by desdamona
04-14-2004 6:55 AM


Re: YOU GO!!!
Dear Desma,
Do clones prove God is not real?
I don't really agree with you but here you have one point.
I think the underground of cloning animals is a first step
to reach human immortality ON earth. A subtle substitution of method, but the aim is the same.
Seen with this angle, your speech makes sense for me.
Denesha

This message is a reply to:
 Message 113 by desdamona, posted 04-14-2004 6:55 AM desdamona has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 115 by desdamona, posted 04-14-2004 7:35 AM Denesha has not replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 115 of 162 (99894)
04-14-2004 7:35 AM
Reply to: Message 114 by Denesha
04-14-2004 7:23 AM


Re: YOU GO!!!
Thanks Denesha for your honesty,and your sweet attitude.
I appreciate it,and I understand.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 114 by Denesha, posted 04-14-2004 7:23 AM Denesha has not replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 116 of 162 (99896)
04-14-2004 7:42 AM
Reply to: Message 108 by Coragyps
04-13-2004 3:58 PM


Re: Dan Breaks His Silence
Have you ever tried to read a book by L.Ron Hubbard? I have,talk about strange stuff.
But,I'm sure he's got his believers and followers like most groups do.

Desdamona*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Coragyps, posted 04-13-2004 3:58 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 118 by Coragyps, posted 04-14-2004 11:18 AM desdamona has not replied

desdamona
Inactive Member


Message 117 of 162 (99898)
04-14-2004 7:47 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by funkman
04-13-2004 3:36 PM


Re: Dan Breaks His Silence
The passover lasted 8 days,and they had meals during the whole time.
there are evidences in the bible like in the book of Numbers what it means.They had passover lambs all during the 8 days of passover.
When we search out the bible we can know it has no contradictions.
Getting around some good jewish friends will help explain alot of the bible to you.The saved jew's will love sharing it with you.Jew's are lovable and sweet people.maybe not all of them,but many of them are the kindest people you'll ever meet.
Be blessed,in Jesus,amen.

Desdamona*

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by funkman, posted 04-13-2004 3:36 PM funkman has not replied

Coragyps
Member (Idle past 735 days)
Posts: 5553
From: Snyder, Texas, USA
Joined: 11-12-2002


Message 118 of 162 (99929)
04-14-2004 11:18 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by desdamona
04-14-2004 7:42 AM


Re: Dan Breaks His Silence
Have you ever tried to read a book by L.Ron Hubbard? I have,talk about strange stuff.
No stranger than Revelations or parts of Ezekiel or Daniel. Much more cynical, but not any odder.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by desdamona, posted 04-14-2004 7:42 AM desdamona has not replied

funkman
Inactive Member


Message 119 of 162 (99959)
04-14-2004 1:31 PM
Reply to: Message 109 by Dan Carroll
04-13-2004 4:06 PM


Re: Dan Breaks His Silence
So how does this authorship work, exactly? I was under the impression that the gospels were supposed to be tales of eyewitness accounts, not divine transcription, direct from the mouth of God.
The Bible was not written by divine transcription - verbatim straight from God's mouth to the book's pages, as you apparently inferred from what I said. If it was, all of the books would be pretty similar as far as their grammatical structure. The Bible was written by many people over the course of thousands of years. All of these people had at least one thing in common - they were inspired by God to write what God wanted them to write using their own individual character and writing traits. This is not to say, though, that it is just a collection of nice stories written by some nice fellows. These men were holy men of God who spoke as the Spirit moved them (I Peter 1:21).
Uh... guy, links to very user-friendly explanations of evidence for evolution have been posted several times on this thread alone.
Not exactly what I meant when I said this. My point was that evolutionist, too, sometimes use the same argument of "This has all been proven before, trust me" and yet they don't consider it a cop-out. But as soon as a creationist uses it, they are condemned.
I'm happy to go into others with you, sure. But I already posted them up. If you want to argue against them, ball's in your court. Pick one, let's get cracking.
Well, I really don't think they should all be addressed in one thread. The task is daunting, and many theologians have devoted entire books and websites to it. For me to say I can prove them all to you here in this thread is a bit ridiculous. So I'll answer your link with a link of my own that has answers for many, if not all, of these discrepancies. http://www.carm.org/bible_difficulties.htm
This is fallacious. For instance, let me tell you a story.
I Am God, by Dan Carroll
I am God.
The End.
Copyright 2004 Dan Carroll Productions. Reprinted with permission of the author.
Furthermore, I claim that this story was written by Almighty God. (Me, as claimed in the story.) There are no logical inconsistencies in the story.
Should it be taken more seriously as fact than any other story? Of course not.
Kudos to you. This is a great story that proves your point superbly!
The point is that the Bible speaks to such a wide variety of subjects (unlike your novel), and is not wrong on any of them. When a book of this magnitude cannot be proven wrong, there must be something to it. But, of course, that leads back to the Gone with the Wind analogy...... *sigh* What can I say... There are things that must be taken on faith. And I know that answer will not suffice you. The Bible is clear in it’s teaching that the ways of God are foolishness to the natural man (natural being defined as one who has not been born again, those who do not have faith), and that there is no way for the natural man to understand spiritually discerned things. But the spiritual man (those who have been born again and are living a Christ-honoring life) is given an understanding heart so that they can understand the things of God (I Corinthians 2:9-16).

This message is a reply to:
 Message 109 by Dan Carroll, posted 04-13-2004 4:06 PM Dan Carroll has not replied

funkman
Inactive Member


Message 120 of 162 (99962)
04-14-2004 1:38 PM
Reply to: Message 108 by Coragyps
04-13-2004 3:58 PM


Re: Dan Breaks His Silence
However, Gone with the Wind doesn't claim to be a true story written by Almighty God. A story making these claims should obviously be treated a little more seriously than a good novel.
So you regard the Qu'ran and the Book of Mormon as books you should treat seriously? How about L Ron Hubbard's stuff?
Yes, I do not think that these books should be shyed away from. It is good to be educated in the beliefs of other religions so you can know what they believe.
But you forgot to include the rest of my thought:
And when that story makes no mistakes whatsoever, then it fairy reasonable to assume it is true.
When you do research into these other books, you find errors and contradictions. But you don't with the Bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 108 by Coragyps, posted 04-13-2004 3:58 PM Coragyps has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 121 by Coragyps, posted 04-14-2004 1:48 PM funkman has not replied
 Message 122 by Primordial Egg, posted 04-14-2004 1:51 PM funkman has not replied
 Message 123 by MrHambre, posted 04-14-2004 2:00 PM funkman has not replied
 Message 143 by nator, posted 04-14-2004 10:52 PM funkman has not replied

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