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Author Topic:   Is The World Getting Better Or Worse?
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 181 of 762 (863302)
09-24-2019 10:07 AM
Reply to: Message 180 by 1.61803
09-24-2019 10:01 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Here I was feeling a little better about the possibility of communication and you just blew it all to smithereens. I guess I'll go back to bed.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 180 by 1.61803, posted 09-24-2019 10:01 AM 1.61803 has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 09-24-2019 10:25 AM Faith has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 182 of 762 (863303)
09-24-2019 10:12 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
09-24-2019 9:27 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
At the risk of generalizing, I will agree or at least acknowledge the belief that the Left (in general) is a non-theistic secular humanist group. There are some who are active social justice warriors and whom do love and know GOD through Jesus Christ, but the majority are intellectuals who have shed religion (and for good reason, ironically) and feel--as ringo does, that we are charged to carry out the message whether the messenger ever existed or not. What makes them *evil*...if we take your view seriously, is because they seek to replace God (Who never existed in the first place) with humanist wisdom...and if the doctrine of original sin is in any way true they will appear noble, good, and fair and yet our natural inclination---as a species---to deify ourselves and have a god of our own secular minds---will ultimately be our undoing. *They* would counter that argument by saying that Christians who claim to be loving and obedient to God are actually authoritarians attempting to legislate morality...which will ultimately be our undoing.

Chance as a real force is a myth. It has no basis in reality and no place in scientific inquiry. For science and philosophy to continue to advance in knowledge, chance must be demythologized once and for all. ~RC Sproul
"A lie can travel half way around the world while the truth is putting on its shoes." ~Mark Twain "
~"If that's not sufficient for you go soak your head."~Faith
You can "get answers" by watching the ducks. That doesn't mean the answers are coming from them.~Ringo
As the fear of God is the beginning of wisdom, so the denial of God is the height of foolishness.
? R.C. Sproul, Essential Truths of the Christian Faith

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 9:27 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 184 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 10:30 AM Phat has not replied
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jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 183 of 762 (863304)
09-24-2019 10:25 AM
Reply to: Message 181 by Faith
09-24-2019 10:07 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
You wanted some more information so here is a small example.
California passed legislation mandating increased fuel economy and lower emission for new cars to be sold in the State. The manufacturers agreed that they could meet those limits and in fact use the California Standard for cars to be sold nationwide.
The utterly brain dead and stupid Trump Administration is trying to rescind the States right to set pollution and fuel economy limits for cars sold the the State and is also attempting to sue the automakers for agreeing to the California Standards.
The many is utterly stupid, immoral and without any redeeming features.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 181 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 10:07 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 10:33 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 184 of 762 (863305)
09-24-2019 10:30 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
09-24-2019 10:12 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Ah Phat, sometimes I just don't know how to talk to you at all. Both Left and Right are political mindsets and may or may not have some religious or spiritual life. "Social justice," however, is about as far from Christianity as you can get in my understanding, being a form of Marxism, and I really don't want to get into a discussion about that, just state it. However, please don't impute to me the idea that Leftists are evil. I certainly think Leftist ideology is evil, most of it today deriving from the Cultural Marxism that took root in the Sixties, but I think those who hold it are misguided and need to be liberated from it.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 09-24-2019 10:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 185 of 762 (863307)
09-24-2019 10:33 AM
Reply to: Message 183 by jar
09-24-2019 10:25 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Apparently there simply couldn't be a rational argument for Trump's position of course, he's just braindead, stupid, immoral and beyond redemption, so I'm not going to get an explanation from you. Maybe someone will mention it on the radio today.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 183 by jar, posted 09-24-2019 10:25 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 09-24-2019 10:39 AM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


(1)
Message 186 of 762 (863308)
09-24-2019 10:39 AM
Reply to: Message 185 by Faith
09-24-2019 10:33 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Faith writes:
Apparently there simply couldn't be a rational argument for Trump's position of course, he's just braindead, stupid, immoral and beyond redemption, so I'm not going to get an explanation from you.
Oh the explanation is really pretty simple. Trump is a petty playground bully who has been embarrassed by the State of California and so has a teenagers hard-on. This is just another example of his childishness.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill StudiosMy Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 185 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 10:33 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 187 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 10:41 AM jar has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 187 of 762 (863310)
09-24-2019 10:41 AM
Reply to: Message 186 by jar
09-24-2019 10:39 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Gosh, the unlikely explanations just proliferate in your fertile mind.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 186 by jar, posted 09-24-2019 10:39 AM jar has not replied

  
AZPaul3
Member
Posts: 8513
From: Phoenix
Joined: 11-06-2006
Member Rating: 5.3


(3)
Message 188 of 762 (863311)
09-24-2019 10:44 AM
Reply to: Message 174 by Faith
09-24-2019 8:51 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
I'd also like to see some reasonable recognition that the Right isn't just out to destroy the environment but that it's apparently the needs of the economy that cause the problems you think need dealing with. It should be possible to take both sides into account.
How do you deal with a philosophy whose long term view stops at next quarter’s bottom line? How do you deal with a society where the political and moneyed elite cannot change for fear of their election and their $500 million annual bonus?
How do you deal with the largest multinational energy companies knowing the dangers of global warming for the last 50 years yet continuing to spend wildly to muddy the science to the public and curtail government efforts to even discuss the issue? Think the lies of Big Tobacco but a billion times bigger.
How do you change the political and moneyed elite that control this world when they know that change will cost them trillions of $ and their control of the world? How do you deal with a regime that incents the right to violence to maintain an ever more damaging status quo?
They have known for decades the dire damage they were inflicting on this world but their greed for money and power won’t let them stop.
Not all the little girls standing in tears before the world will change that.
They will not, cannot, compromise. They don't care if there is a revolution since they have all the bullets and bombs and will not hesitate to use them against anyone who threatens their bottom line. Besides, there are big profits to be made from war. As long as they are at the top of the garbage heap they don’t care that the species is fucked.
To them there is only one side to take into account and it ain't us.
Edited by AZPaul3, : No reason given.

Eschew obfuscation. Habituate elucidation.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 174 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 8:51 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
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 Message 200 by Hyroglyphx, posted 09-25-2019 2:42 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 189 of 762 (863313)
09-24-2019 11:01 AM
Reply to: Message 188 by AZPaul3
09-24-2019 10:44 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
I don't recognize that view of the Right at all, so it's just a paranoid fantasy it seems to me. It may have some reality I suppose but it's so far from my own experience I can't say anything pro or con. Everybody on the Right I know is poor or not more than modestly well off. And of course I immediately think of all the Leftist billionaires too and wonder where they fit into your picture.
I'd like to just ignore them all and try to take both sides into account from the totally UNmoneyed NONelites I'm familiar with.
But as often happens when I've been up most of the night, I'm about to nod off and will have to come back later.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 188 by AZPaul3, posted 09-24-2019 10:44 AM AZPaul3 has seen this message but not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


Message 190 of 762 (863315)
09-24-2019 11:16 AM
Reply to: Message 158 by Faith
09-23-2019 6:51 PM


Faith writes:
I deny the idiotic hysteria. Trump identified a real problem and proposed real solutions which the Left has done nothing but obstruct.
So you deny the idiotic hysteria that Trump tried to use during his campaign?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 158 by Faith, posted 09-23-2019 6:51 PM Faith has not replied

  
Taq
Member
Posts: 9972
Joined: 03-06-2009
Member Rating: 5.5


(1)
Message 191 of 762 (863316)
09-24-2019 11:20 AM
Reply to: Message 178 by Faith
09-24-2019 9:27 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Faith writes:
The problem with the Left's solutions seems to me to be that they destroy the economy, put people out of work and make us dependent on enemy nations for things we should be able to supply for ourselves.
There's the idiotic hysterics from the Right that we are talking about.
And as long as the Left keeps accusing us of not caring or of being greedy, caring only about money, and when they have the power forcing their solutions on us that DO wreck the economy, the less inspired conservatives are to find solutions.
You are getting feedback from the hysteria in your own echo chamber.
The major problem is that conservatives refuse to accept the science.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 178 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 9:27 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(1)
Message 192 of 762 (863317)
09-24-2019 11:45 AM
Reply to: Message 176 by Phat
09-24-2019 9:12 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Phat writes:
One side wants private enterprise involved and government to butt out.
But it was too much free enterprise that caused the problem.
Phat writes:
The other side sees it as a human issue (and therefore a leftist one) Its just that simple.
Yes, you right-wingers always think it's simple.

Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 176 by Phat, posted 09-24-2019 9:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 411 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


(5)
Message 193 of 762 (863319)
09-24-2019 11:53 AM
Reply to: Message 182 by Phat
09-24-2019 10:12 AM


Re: Why is it always the Environment versus the Economy?
Phat writes:
... feel--as ringo does, that we are charged to carry out the message whether the messenger ever existed or not.
For the hundredth time, we are not "charged" to do anything. We have to do it because nobody else is doing it. You are charged to do it but you idolize the messenger and scoff at His message.
Phat writes:
... they seek to replace God....
For the hundred-plus time, we don't seek to replace anything. If He was doing anything, that would be great. Since He isn't, we have to do it ourselves.

Maturity, one discovers, has everything to do with the acceptance of ‘not knowing.
-- Mark Z. Danielewski, House of Leaves

This message is a reply to:
 Message 182 by Phat, posted 09-24-2019 10:12 AM Phat has not replied

  
Theodoric
Member
Posts: 9076
From: Northwest, WI, USA
Joined: 08-15-2005
Member Rating: 3.7


Message 194 of 762 (863322)
09-24-2019 3:45 PM
Reply to: Message 172 by Faith
09-24-2019 8:07 AM


Re: the wall is simply stupid!
Also, according to the law you cannot apply for asylum until you are in the USA.

Facts don't lie or have an agenda. Facts are just facts
"God did it" is not an argument. It is an excuse for intellectual laziness.
If your viewpoint has merits and facts to back it up why would you have to lie?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 172 by Faith, posted 09-24-2019 8:07 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 195 of 762 (863326)
09-24-2019 4:32 PM


So is it possible to have both economic prosperity AND a concern for the environment?
I was unable to sleep so I may have to get off the thread and try again to sleep, but I've been thinking about the topic and hope I can be coherent about my thoughts.
Although it started with my objection to Greta Thunberg's accusations of people for not caring enough about the environment, I think this is an interestingly neutral topic politically. While the Left is on the side of the environment and the Right too often sees legislation for the environment as an interference with their capitalist concern for prosperity and the economy, for me it doesn't involve my usual problem with Leftist ideology as Marxist. I can share in much of the concern about the environment myself in other words, although I haven't been keeping up with the issues and need to learn more.
There is always the usual problem that the Left tends to reduce it all to namecalling and accusations, which is what I was reacting to in Greta's speech. Oh we're all just greedy capitalist pigs and Trump is a moron who cares only about money and has no concern for the environment and so on and so forth. No benefit of the doubt, no civilized good will to seek the best construction on the opponent's actions and opinions. Just another version of Racist in the Leftist arsenal, and it's very hard to have a discussion when that is the main communication.
I will say that this is maybe the only issue I would like to see the Left push harder, but of course in a sincere effort to make a case in a fair and thoughtful way without the accusations please. You might need to start with giving Trump some credit for a change and I know that may make it all impossible, but all Trump is doing is trying to accomplish his aim to build up the economy and make America prosperous again, and unfortunately that means reversing some pro-environment laws that interfere with industry. This is why the Left considers him to be an evil destroyer but in reality it's just that he's doing what he knows will improve the economy.
The problem is that there is this conflict between building the economy and saving the environment. It shouldn't be necessary, it should be possible to have both, but like so much else it's become polarized, so that when the Left is in power they save the environment and let the economy go to hell, people lose jobs and so on, which is really a big reason why Trump won the election. All the Left seems to offer is things that cost money and make the average American worker insecure. So now we have the Right through Trump in power and he's reversing the environmental laws in order to save the economy. It's the reasonable thing to do from the point of view of bringing back American prosperity.
And unfortunately it probably means Trump isn't sensitive to the needs of the environment much if at all. Most of the Right isn't. This isn't greed, this is just caring that people have jobs and don't have to be on welfare and that we don't have to buy oil from Saudi Arabia when we've got plenty of our own. Really, can't this be recognized as a legitimate concern?
Why can't we have both an active program to improve the environment AND an active concern to improve the economy? They are both important.
I'm falling asleep again already, have to come back later.

Replies to this message:
 Message 196 by Taq, posted 09-24-2019 4:39 PM Faith has replied

  
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