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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days)  Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
In one of these 4 hour discussions, the issue of evolution came up. From what I learned here, Evolution has the evidence. I voiced that to them, I said "I accept that the theory of evolution has the evidence, but I choose to believe the scripture on faith alone". I got in trouble for saying that. They kept asking for proof. I tried to think of examples I've heard here but I couldn't think of any. They said a lot of "creationist rhetoric". I felt lost. It got to the point when they started to question my christianity. My roommate said something like Jesus loves you or something and asked me a question but I didn't here what he said. They persisted to tell me that God would give me the answer and I got angry but then someone came in and interupted the discussion and it was over. out-talking the creationist rhetoric takes lots and lots of skill, practice, and more importantly knowledge of the evidence and the bible. it's much, much harder in person. saying "where's the proof?" is pretty effective. i doubt you had an archaeopteryx in your pocket at the time -- i don't carry mine around with me. it's a little hard to pony up the proof for people who demand it on the spot in a casual conversation. they know this. it makes them look good. finding bible verses is hard on your own (without a search engine) and takes IMMENSE scriptural knowlegde. they know this too. they're skilled at this. they've had lots and lots of practice, so don't feel bad if you "lose." god knows how many times i've been unable to actually convince people of common sense.
In another group when I was in a similiar evolution debate someone (a leader at the camp) said "What good is Science?" I said "Science is medicine, it increases the quality of life." He questione if medicine is necessary. memorize these verses:
quote: quote: quote: sitting at home and praying for a cure doesn't help much if god's already provided one called a hospital. faith healing is basically the same as demanding a miracle on your terms.
That's when I said "If it was up to you people, addressing everyone there, you could go about living and believing the world is flat." Was I sensing a recession into the Dark ages? i've felt it too. it's really sad.
I STARTED TO FEEL LIKE A WAS LOSING MYSELF. I began to speak less eloqently, I began to forget reasons for why I believe the things I do. several fundamentalist christian churches are on cult watchlists. and with good reason. they're very good at programming, especially through the use of guilt (kind of similar to beaten-wife syndrome). listen for it -- "you DO love jesus, don't you?" they're very good at programming. very good.
regret saying what I said next. I rudely told her she needed a college education. When I believe school is not for everyone. as rude as it might have been, you were probably correct. frankly the hardest course for a fundamentalist that i've ever seen was the bible course i took. it required them to actually look at it, read it, understand what it was saying, and often it quite thoroughly smashed their opinions of it. i could share anecdotes if you want. but the fact remains that she was obviously the programmed one. that's the new way we can tell -- the people telling us we're brainwashed are the brainwashed ones. tricky, ain't it? but if someone has formed opinions on something on authority instead of evidence, it's a sure sign of programming. i've read some the rig vedas, i've read some stuff on taoism (though not lao tzu), i'm planning on reading some bits of the koran eventually... and you're right. there are plain similarities. "we hate these people!" is an irrational and programmed response. remember -- some churches are considered cults.
He said Islam is evil, a religion and a people bent on world domination. He says it says so in the Quran. I knew it was a lie. yes, i'm sure the koran says islam is evil.  memorize the atrocity verses in the bible.
quote: "Muslims hate Christians" i know a few. they don't hate me. it's the christians that hate me.
"What if God told Bush to do this" then god's pretty pissed at us.
"The Crusades were justified" double standard, isn't it? our crusade = justified. their crusade = evil. nevermind that for the most part they're just trying to hold on to the land that they ALSO believe is holy. the whole debate is stupid. both gods say "thou shalt not kill." just because he says it in different a different language doesn't mean we should kill people. of course, god does also say to wipe 7 nations off the face of the earth, so who knows.
"All other religion is evil" christianity is pretty evil in its own right, isn't it? i mean, the crusades, the inquisition, puritanism and the witch/werewolf trials, the kkk, aryan nation, abortion clinic bombings, hate-speech and discrimination -- all in the name of someone you said "love your neighbor." if christ were still in his grave, he'd be rolling over in it.
This preacher put a saw up to my neck to relay a point. Not malevolently I don't believe, but things were heated. wtf? don't go back there.
He was trying to make me believe that My God is a god of war. I almost lost my faith that night. it's hard sometimes. i wish i could consol you on this, but it doesn't get any easier. there's only more questions. i try not to think about some of them too much; i've been avoiding my crisis of faith for 2 years+ now. i think the tested faith is the truly valuable one. i think that god made it hard to believe in him on purpose, and even harded to find him on purpose. i think ultimately, our tests are not from satan or god, or even other christians, but from ourselves. hang in there, it's a perfectly good religion if you ignore the quacks.
He quoted Exodus 15:3 "Our Lord is a God of war" I knew in the back of my mind in context it wouldn't make sense. We closed with Exodus 15:3, he had one. A year of not reading the Bible can make you lose to the biggest fool sometimes. He beat me with my own religion. I knew he was wrong though. I sat down, that night, now it was almost 1:00, I started at Exodus 15:3. I was right. It was a song being sung by the Israelites after God drowned the Egyptians.The Israelites were wrong. i'm not sure they were. god is portrayed that way sometimes -- see dueteronomy above. luckily, it is my educated opinion that dueteronomy is a forgery.
I kept reading. I read many unethical verses summed up in 3: Exodus 21:23,24,25 23And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life, 24Eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25Burning for burning, wound for wound, stripe for stripe. It almost seems.. There is a different moralty of the God of the Old and New Testament. the god of the old testament demands justice. everything done, every evil, was considered justice. there is love and compassion to be had in the ot too. but the stance of exodus is that the egyptians had it comign to them for 400 years of oppression and slavery. think of it like karma. is it right? who knows. that's why us "non-literalists" don't take the bible TOO seriously. we know man is nasty. if it's written by god, well, god can be kinda nasty too.
I then turned to Jesus and found my God: Matthew 5:38,39 38Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. Matthew 5:43,44,45,46,47 well, see, jesus was speaking of morality. exoduse was speaking of the law. for justice, the law demands retribution. you take my donkey, you give me a donkey back. you kill my wife, you are put to death. it's the direction for the state of isreal on how to deal with crime. jesus is saying that we are to forgive. it's god's place to demand justice, not ours. people get mixed up about this a lot -- that's a big problem in the kind of church you went to. they think it's their place to make those sorts of judgements. it's not.
The preacher and his wife tried saying "that's different, that's between individuals" But what is the difference? and that's a very good point. since we are a democracy, if we all followed these bits we all claim to like -- the government should represent that, right? jesus was instruction people who were contrary to the government of the time -- the reason he got executed. if the two aren't compatible, well, i'll take jesus's side.
To say that Jesus Christ condones war is blasphemy. yes, it is. but you have to remember the logic. eltonian james posted something similar to this (too lazy to look it up): jesus is god. god wrote the old testament. therefore, jesus said _____. i don't agree. but how to explain that in a concise way? intensive study of the bible reveals the obvious conclusion: it's a collection of books written in very different styles about very different things, by very different people. but it's a little hard to explain that to people who have to believe the opposite.
A movement to kill all enemies. To kill all that are not christians. To justify sin. quote: We both disliked Bush. He did because he lived it. He lives in the city where there pushing the poor out. they're doing that here. i'm documenting it photographically. i took pictures of a rundown trailer park that was sectioned off. it's gone now, and i have to go back and take pictures of the lot. i'm gonna record the construction of luxury apartments on that lot. this is happening literally across the street.
Well anyway, like Che Guevara we both decided a revolution was necessary. he spoke of using force and guns like Che did. I saw glimmer of violence in his eyes and it scared me. He's a big intimidating guy, tall with a scar from a knife on his face. But that's not what scared me. What scared me was his mentality. Violence and death was sometimes justified in his mind. it might be in some cases, i dunno. i prefer to think not though. i'm all for revolution, like ghandi or mlk. jesus would like those two. but i also support the foundign fathers' vision, that insured us the right to bear arms should we ever need to overthrow our government. thomas jefferson described blood as the natural manure of democracy. either way, i wouldn't be shooting anyone. i don't think i could. i'm not capable of it. christianity is an easy philosophy for me. gives me an excuse not to have to hit anyone. for a 6'3" 240lb scary-looking guy, i'm a big softie.
That's what we argued, if christians should use violence to convert others he said yes. I said "what get's more converts, converting with love or converting by force" He said force. that's why jesus went out and bashed some skulls, ooh-rah! oh wait, no. that's not what happened at all. ironically, of course, it was force that solidified christianty. it was christ's blood, not the enemies'.
But this is what scared me the most. He referenced scripture in which Jesus whipped someone for going into his house or something. He said in one of the gospels Jesus whipped someone. He bet me money it was true. 5 dollars. I said it wasn't but I almost doubted myself, which is ludicrous but I didn't bet him. dude, next time take the 5 bucks. i'm a big "book, chapter, verse?" fan myself. shuts people up really quickly when they realize the verse they're thinking of isn't actually in the bible at all. i think i've only had someone respond to that question with an answer two or three times, and i've asked it a myriad. generally, when someone says "the bible says..." something wild, it's a safe bet it doesn't.
It's a disgrace that christians do not harp about Jesus's love and rather they harp on heaven and hell, to scare people into believing. I believe you should believe in Christ by his love alone. back before martin luther, people couldn't read the bible themselves. they were converted on what the church told them: heaven and hell. oh, how we have progressed! luther believed that bible would speak for itself. but it's meaningless if people don't read it themselves, and just trust their pastor to know what they're talking about. i mean "love your enemies" and "judge not..." are pretty straightforward verses.
I might promote to not convert by mentioning heaven and hell but by sharing the Gospels. that is why they were written. good books, i think.
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Trump won  Suspended Member (Idle past 1271 days)  Posts: 1928 Joined: |
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arachnophilia Member (Idle past 1374 days) Posts: 9069 From: god's waiting room Joined: |
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jar Member (Idle past 425 days)  Posts: 34026 From: Texas!! Joined: |
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Trump won Suspended Member (Idle past 1271 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
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Phat Member  Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
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Trump won Suspended Member (Idle past 1271 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
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Phat Member Posts: 18354 From: Denver,Colorado USA Joined: Member Rating: 1.0 |
CSPjr writes: I attended classes at Vassar in the earlier part of summer. The subject was America and the world... We watched several films... I came to realize even more strongly than ever how primitive all war is...I then went to a Christian bible camp after this. I have been going to this camp for a long time. It was a different experience there because I now worked there instead of being a camper. I liked it much better.PB writes: I worked maintenance... I lawnmowed and picked up heavy objects, manual labor. My roommate was a guy from Brooklyn, you could tell how much his environment affected him...We discussed and argued about God, the Bible, Christ, Christianity in general for hours. We had a morning Bible study with my Boss (a true Christian). This man had to do everything by himself that we (the maintenance staff)did there...we found ourselves discussing the bible all day. What a great Summer! Lots of learning experience!In one of these 4 hour discussions, the issue of evolution came up. From what I learned here, Evolution has the evidence. I voiced that to them, I said "I accept that the theory of evolution has the evidence, but I choose to believe the scripture on faith alone". I got in trouble for saying that. They kept asking for proof. I am beginning to find out that it is usually futile to argue with non-believers about Jesus and the Holy Spirit and it is equally futile to argue with "believers" who are uber-religious. The problem with the believers is that they are scared to death to think outside the book. As long as you--a Christian..realize that your relationship with God gives you the origin of wisdom, don't be afraid to explore anything and everything. He will never leave nor forsake you in the process. I think that by having situations where you feel alone in your beliefs, God is strengthening you to rely on Him and Him alone to confirm in your mind what your heart knows to be true. I tried to think of examples I've heard here but I couldn't think of any. They said a lot of "creationist rhetoric". I felt lost.But you were never alone. It got to the point when they started to question my Christianity.The godly in Christ will suffer persecution. We never thought that it would be the most intense coming from other "christians", however...did we, Chris? ... I tried explaining that Abraham and Moses may have been heavily influenced by Mesopotamia, that Abraham was influenced by that culture and the creation myths are very similar. They questioned the fact that there could have other cultures, it was inconceivable.Ask your friends Dad about this one. He sounds like he would have a good answer. In another group when I was in a similar evolution debate someone (a leader at the camp) said "What good is Science?" He questioned if medicine is necessary. Scary! Very scary! I began to speak less eloquently, I began to forget reasons for why I believe the things I do.For me, there is only one reason. The relationship that came into my heart. That will always be reason enough for me. I have found myself in similar situations as you did. It used to frustrate me until I realized that God found me...nobody convinced me of Him beforehand...so why should I trip out over people who just don't get it? I am no better than them...and no dumber either. I just met God in my heart and I cannot explain it. As you get older, you begin to find non-religious ways of explaining that reality...that love...the reason why you hate war...why you hate materialism worship, and why you can't understand hypocrisy.
In the same discussion I tried to explain tolerance. That we should be tolerant to all other faiths. They hate that one! I simply explain that while I do not believe that all religions lead to God, I DO believe that all seekers of truth will be found by God...because He is truth. It is the many paths up the mountain scenario. There is only one path that matters to everybody...the path where truth is found. He found you when you were nine...at a Bible camp in America. He may well also find a young Hindu boy at a shrine in India. He may find an atheist at a bar in Scotland. God is not bound by religion. A wrote a paper that is in possession of my Global teacher on the similarities between Taoism, Buddhism and Christianity.It is unbelievable how many things are exactly the same in these faiths. There are quotes right out of the Tao that say the same things that the Gospels say. I've studied it. Lao Tzu, Jesus Christ, and Siddhartha Gottama preached the same thing except for one aspect. Christ also preached love. That is the only difference between the three. I agree, except that I might add that Jesus is the only one of the three still living. Of course, I would never be so arrogant or insensitive to say that in an argument with a follower of Lao Tzu. I would, in that instance, talk about love and truth and pray that Jesus helped us agree on those points. It is not for me to decide or define how Jesus would relate to my brethren of other faiths.
My boss wasn't that extreme, he didn't say they were all evil. He did say Buddhism was bad though, that it teaches people to become God's.I didn't say this but look at what Jesus said: Matthew 5:48 So be perfect, just as your heavenly Father is perfect. I've studied the major religions and they are all beautiful. I said this to them: "I was a Christian before I studied the major religions and I was a Christian after" Some of the new friends I made at Vassar happened to be Muslim. They told me that in their final day Jesus comes down as it says in Revelation. I said Allah is God. This mention of Islam brings me to the main point of my post. I got in an argument with a Christian that dresses in quaint, old fashioned clothing. She supports George Bush. I tried letting her know about how America is corrupt and that war is wrong and the Iraq war is for America's interests not the interests of human beings. It got to the point where she was saying I was brainwashed and "programmed by Vassar College. Poor girl! She has been brainwashed by religion! She was home schooled and I regret saying what I said next. I rudely told her she needed a college education. In other words, she needs to quit being afraid of coming out of the box and exploring the world. When I believe school is not for everyone.As I said that a man stepped out of the building we were near, he sat across from me at the picnic table. He is a fundamentalist Militant Christian and the guest preacher for that week. He called me out on my rude comment, I didn't apologize. He started saying the most outrageous wrong things I have ever heard. His claim to fame (for me) from the previous year was this statement: "God blesses the scopes of the soldier that kills the enemy". He said Islam is evil, a religion and a people bent on world domination. He says it says so in the Quran. I knew it was a lie. He stated he was a Reagan Republican, I asked him to be a Jesus Christian. He said I was brainwashed by Vassar college too. Dang! Vassar college could'nt have THAT much influence! Why are these people afraid of education??
He said Saddam was a bad man that needed to be dealt with.I said he caused destruction because the Reagan administration decided to sell him chemical and biological weapons. Through all this the statements that really pissed me off were these. "Muslims hate Christians" "What if God told Bush to do this" "The Crusades were justified" "All other religion is evil" These statements were reiterated through a friend I respected much more highly, he was my counselor at this camp for a few years. This preacher put a saw up to my neck to relay a point. Not malevolently I don't believe, but things were heated. The climax of this interaction was at the staff devotionals that night. I stayed later obviously. We were blowing up on each other, saying neither of us had any facts. I said he was misrepresenting Jesus Christ and his facts which he gets from NetWorldDaily and CBN were wrong. He was trying to make me believe that My God is a god of war. I almost lost my faith that night. But you learned how powerful the reality of spiritual warfare is in our modern culture. There really IS a spiritual war..and the antidote is Jesus Christ. The problem is that too many naive christians try and preach Jesus Christ the religion versus living Jesus Christ the incarnate Spirit of love and truth. If you don't speak about Jesus in a conversation, you are not denying or dissing Him. You are being wise. People don't want to hear about Jesus. They DO want to hear from us...and at that point they either accept you or reject you. Just keep on loving them. Thats all we can do. Keep studying and keep learning more and more. While you will never find proof for or against Christ in education, you will understand the human condition. Christ already liives within you. He will be there always while you go to school and learn about whatever it is that your passion and inner truth lead you to accomplish.
What the difference between two people hating each other and millions?The difference between two people killing each other and millions? It's primitive. It's primitive. All war is primitive, and basic and unjustified. To say that Jesus Christ condones war is blasphemy. He didn't mean a literal sword. The sword is the Word. The sword is the truth. It is not found in the Bible. It is found in the heart. Keep "preaching" to the educated kids. You will probably find that it is your calling to talk to the non-religious people in the world. You won't ever need to tell them to read a Bible or to go to a church. You will only need to talk to your God every day and realize that He is your most important relationship. He will tell you what to say. He will tell you how to say it. Leave the religious people alone. Love them, of course...but don't try and argue with them. They are like the modern day Pharisees!
He didn't bless the centurion for being a soldier.My God is not a God of War. The Christian God is not a God of War. But I see this movement. This angry movement. A movement to kill all enemies. To kill all that are not Christians. To justify sin. It is the idolatry of American materialism masquerading behind the false banner of christian virtue!!!
I saw it in the preacher, in my former roommate, in my former counselor.My roommate and I got into a heated argument as we were working. He voiced a militant Christianity. I spoke to him of revolution. We both disliked Bush. He did because he lived it. He lives in the city where there pushing the poor out. He showed me a political emcee named Immortal Technique that spoke of the horrors of America, particularly this current administration, some things he said I was blown away by, his flow was so nice and he spoke truth, he said things I didn't even know in regards to the evil of the MEDIA and the administration. Look up the word,media. A medium is a go-between. The Bible tells us that Jesus is the only way to God. Jesus is the message. The gospel. The good news. The love. The truth. In the world, by contrast, the media tells us what is good and evil. The media is the spirit of the antichrist. The media, however, is the way that the world is. Don't become a fundamentalist militant! Che was right in fighting for the poor. Ask yourself, however, how it was that Jesus showed us to fight for the poor. Jesus told us that the poor would be with us always. Ask yourself: What is my mission? Ask God that same question as you pray. He will show you whats up!
Well anyway, like Che Guevara we both decided a revolution was necessary. he spoke of using force and guns like Che did. I saw glimmer of violence in his eyes and it scared me. He's a big intimidating guy, tall with a scar from a knife on his face. But that's not what scared me. What scared me was his mentality. Violence and death were sometimes justified in his mind.That's what we argued, if Christians should use violence to convert others he said yes. I said "what gets more converts, converting with love or converting by force" He said force. I let him in on a discussion we had here, how some believe that missionary work is exploitation. He questioned my belief for saying this. Even though i said I didn't believe it was. I was trying to give him various opinions. But this is what scared me the most. Because you see the ugliness of fundamentalism. If a false spirit could inspire someone to die in a terrorist bombing, a false spirit could also possess American christians. Think about it. Jesus was no fundamentalist. He was a relationship expert with His Father first and with everyone else second. The fundamentalist, by contrast, is loyal to the religion, the people, and the cause but is out of sync with the very God that they proclaim. It's a disgrace that Christians do not harp about Jesus’ love and rather they harp on heaven and hell, to scare people into believing. I believe you should believe in Christ by his love alone.I might promote to not convert by mentioning heaven and hell but by sharing the Gospels. Great thinking! Right on, Chris! I know that you are on the right path!
I remember reading a parable (if someone can refer to its exact spot I would be grateful) in which God sent an angel to douse the fires of hell and destroy heaven so that you would believe in God alone.This movement of militant Christianity is growing out of a basic miseducation of who Jesus was and what he was about. My main points: God is not a God of War The Christian God is not a God of War. Tolerance of other faiths. Education of other faiths. There is beauty in Animism, Hinduism, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Islam, Taoism. This message has been edited by Phatboy, 08-13-2005 02:43 PM
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Trump won Suspended Member (Idle past 1271 days) Posts: 1928 Joined: |
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