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Author Topic:   designing a convincing prayer experiment
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 31 of 80 (81128)
01-27-2004 1:05 PM
Reply to: Message 24 by Percy
01-27-2004 12:27 PM


Re: Hot Air?
Percy,
Replication is required if you're being scientific. Loehr's experiments were never published in any peer-reviewed journal, so the possibility of replication doesn't even exist.
That picture under your name keeps making more and more sense.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 24 by Percy, posted 01-27-2004 12:27 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 34 by Percy, posted 01-27-2004 1:29 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
PaulK
Member
Posts: 17822
Joined: 01-10-2003
Member Rating: 2.2


Message 32 of 80 (81130)
01-27-2004 1:10 PM
Reply to: Message 30 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 1:03 PM


Re: MANTRA
I begin to think that you are having us all on. Even if your ad hoc "explanation" which you attribute to God, were correct that would not explain the data - unless you assume, for instance, that God tends to favour women under 30.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 30 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 1:03 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 58 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 10:32 PM PaulK has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 33 of 80 (81131)
01-27-2004 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 25 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 12:32 PM


Re: Hot Air?
You still provide no hint of a scientific approach informing your opinions, and your unfamiliarity with science is made clear by your misusages of many scientific terms and concepts, like "double-blind" and "evidence".
Subjective experiences are not scientific. Message 162 of The best scientific method thread addresses this perhaps most pronounced deficiency of your approach to science.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 25 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 12:32 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 59 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 10:36 PM Percy has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 34 of 80 (81132)
01-27-2004 1:29 PM
Reply to: Message 31 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 1:05 PM


Re: Hot Air?
Stephen ben Yeshua writes:
That picture under your name keeps making more and more sense.
Hey, don't get too personal, I'm one of the few here using an actual photograph!
Seriously, let's keep this on an objective and scientific level. You're supposedly a scientist. How do you, as a scientist, justify your promotion of Loehr's non-scientific experiment as legitimate science (not to mention turning from legitimate discussion to ad hominems). If you truly want to define a persuasive prayer experiment, which the title you've chosen for this thread implies, then why not simply point to which of Loehr's methods have scientific potential and suggest them for inclusion in the experiment you're designing.
Though, of course, actually designing an experiment would contradict what you just told Trixie, ie, that you don't test God anymore. Sigh, consistency is such a chore, isn't it?
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 31 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 1:05 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 60 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 10:39 PM Percy has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 35 of 80 (81138)
01-27-2004 1:35 PM
Reply to: Message 22 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 12:16 PM


Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
Stephen:
In Message #22 you seem to have missed my point entirely.
What I asked was, "so, could it be that praying over one control group of plants causes the Devil to direct his minions to enter the physical structure of the control group plants and inhibit their growth, say for the purpose of misguiding the Obedient Scientist into false beliefs?"
You said in reply, "I would mostly pray that God would deliver us from evil as we do the experiment, keeping the devil out of the picture ... but, if allowed to mess with the experiments, the devil might try to enhance the growth of the controls, so that it looks like prayer did nothing."
Okay, let's digress for a moment and look back. Up to now, your philosophy as stated in this and other threads includes your beliefs that:
(1) There is a supreme god.
(2) The supreme god you believe to exist can be petitioned by prayer to cause physical differences in otherwise similar or same inanimate and animate objects.
(3) We can structure an experiment that will provide strong evidence that the supreme god has been successfully petitioned by prayer to possitively affect the germination rates of same species seeds and the growth rates of the resulting seedlings.
(4) There is an evil power embodied in an entity or evil angel who has a posse of demon minions.
(5) The devil and his minions have the physical ability to enter into animate and inanimate objects and influence the objects to cause evil or reflect evil attributes.
(6) The supreme god can be petitioned to prevent the evil entities from interfering with the prayer experiment, and thereby prove your hypotheses.
Also, in Message 22, you indicate you could avoid the "devil default" I pointed out as possible, and guarantee the success of the experiment by, "mostly pray[ing] that God would deliver us from evil as we do the experiment, keeping the devil out of the picture."
Okay. Now let's assume we conduct an absolutely unquestionably double-blind scientific experiment or whatever you scientists want to call it ... but definitely it's unquestionably correct in structure. And the result is that Group "A", the prayed-over seeds, germinate more quickly and the resulting seedlings grow more quickly and more healthy and all that.
Again, my previously stated questions are rephrased here as:
(1) Does that prove existence or even likelihood of a supreme god whom we successfully petitioned with prayer to have possitive effects on Group "A"; or
(2) Does that prove existence or equal likelihood of an evil entity, or a trickster god like Pan, who finds it amusing or beneficial to his purposes to retard the seed germination and subsequent health of seedlings in Group "B"?
Do you see the point of my questions now, Stephen? See, you believe in BOTH scenerios before the experiment begins. You have this mishmash of Jewish, Christian, Voodoo, animism, pagan, wiccan, pantheonistic cabbala of good and evil theologies.
But you are willing before the results are in to accept that possitive results in Group "A" can only point to the existence of a supreme god who has dominion over and the will to exercise that dominion over evil. And that there could be no other possible scenerios.
My point is that even if the prayer experiment is absolutely unquestionable and results in Group "A" accelerated growth, that there are other metaphysical explanations possible; and, in fact, some of those explanations are manifest in other theologies or philosophies past and present. Right?
Peace.
Peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 22 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 12:16 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 36 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 2:06 PM Abshalom has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 36 of 80 (81147)
01-27-2004 2:06 PM
Reply to: Message 35 by Abshalom
01-27-2004 1:35 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
Abshalom,
My point is that even if the prayer experiment is absolutely unquestionable and results in Group "A" accelerated growth, that there are other metaphysical explanations possible; and, in fact, some of those explanations are manifest in other theologies or philosophies past and present. Right?
Right. So, you start praying in particular ways, to see if you can separate these factors. I could not see the devil making God look loving or good, so I did miss your point. The purpose of all this is to get people to see the possibility, the probability of success, if they want to connect up with the Jehovah self-described in the Bible. So that they can live better. But, I can see it producing all sorts of weird pagans as well.
But, I do have confidence in the H-D method, that persistently applied, in a search for the One True God, He will be found if He is out there. Other gods, confusions, mistaken thoughts, fantasies, all get trimmed away, as you keep trying to come up with new predictions, new studies. I don't think other philosophies will survive the process, unless they are true, too. But then, the One True God isn't out there.
Freedom. To have choices.
Thanks, Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 35 by Abshalom, posted 01-27-2004 1:35 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 01-27-2004 2:25 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied
 Message 41 by Abshalom, posted 01-27-2004 2:58 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 37 of 80 (81150)
01-27-2004 2:25 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 2:06 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
You haven't answered Abshalom's question. Here it is again:
Abshalom in Message 37 writes:
(1) Does that prove existence or even likelihood of a supreme god whom we successfully petitioned with prayer to have possitive effects on Group "A"; or
(2) Does that prove existence or equal likelihood of an evil entity, or a trickster god like Pan, who finds it amusing or beneficial to his purposes to retard the seed germination and subsequent health of seedlings in Group "B"?
And, of course, there are many other possibilities.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 2:06 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 38 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 2:43 PM Percy has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 38 of 80 (81159)
01-27-2004 2:43 PM
Reply to: Message 37 by Percy
01-27-2004 2:25 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
Percy,
Depends on how you prayed. But remember, you can only prove liklihood. If the prayers are formed correctly, you separate out the various hypothetical gods, so that some become more likely to be the cause of whatever results you got, others less likely. You just have to write the prayer based on what each one, hypothetically, wants to hear.
The evil entity, Satan, being someone the God Jehovah has the inside info on, is best discerned by getting Jehovah validated. Then His description of what Satan is like becomes more plausible.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 37 by Percy, posted 01-27-2004 2:25 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 39 by Percy, posted 01-27-2004 2:50 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 39 of 80 (81163)
01-27-2004 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 38 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 2:43 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
Stephen ben Yeshua writes:
If the prayers are formed correctly, you separate out the various hypothetical gods, so that some become more likely to be the cause of whatever results you got, others less likely. You just have to write the prayer based on what each one, hypothetically, wants to hear.
Where does the scientifically developed information about which prayers work with which Gods come from? And then please answer Abshalom's specific question about how you tell the difference between God helping A and Satan hindering B.
--Percy
[This message has been edited by Percy, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 38 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 2:43 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 40 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 2:55 PM Percy has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 40 of 80 (81165)
01-27-2004 2:55 PM
Reply to: Message 39 by Percy
01-27-2004 2:50 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
P.
Where does the scientifically developed information about which prayers work with which Gods come from? And then please answer Abshalom's specific question about how you tell the difference between God helping A and Satan hindering B.
1. Speculation, or any proposed self-description or other description of the hypothesized spirit being. Dreams, like the idea about benzene rings. Imagination, like the quantum ideas.
2. You pray with and without the clause, "deliver us from the evil one." to the God, Jehovah, who is hypothesized to make the devil come or go. You also "curse" certain ones, asking Jehovah to make the devil mess with certain ones, a la Job.
S.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 39 by Percy, posted 01-27-2004 2:50 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 01-27-2004 3:01 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 41 of 80 (81167)
01-27-2004 2:58 PM
Reply to: Message 36 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 2:06 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
Re: Message 36:
Stephen "I could not see the devil making God look loving or good, so I did miss your point."
My point is that you may be proving that only the Devil, Pan, or some trickster god exists, and there is no "loving or good" god as that whom you apparently are set on proving.
Stephen: "So, you start praying in particular ways, to see if you can separate these factors."
And again, my point would be that Pan, the Devil, or some singular, trickster god says, "now I really have this fellow going, and I am going to befuddle him even more."
Stephen: "The purpose of all this is to get people to see the possibility, the probability of success, if they want to connect up with the Jehovah self-described in the Bible."
And the possibility exists that what the experiment results in is that people are deceived by one of your other perceived entities that you have called up.
Stephen: "But, I do have confidence in the H-D method, that persistently applied, in a search for the One True God, He will be found if He is out there."
But Stephen, you have repeatedly expressed your belief in a pantheon of gods, good and evil; so, how do you hypothetically deduce which one is responding to your prayer petititions. Again, an evil or trickster entity may be the respondent.
By "the One True God" we may assume you mean "Jehovah" yet the Jehovah portrayed in the Bible repeatedly allows man to be bamboozled by supernatural tricksters. This does not prove the existence of Jehovah. In fact, it indicates a possibility that at least one author subconsciously surmises that if a superior power exists, it is evil.
Stephen: "But, I can see it producing all sorts of weird pagans as well."
What could be weirder than a pagan concept of evil angels that mount asteroids and ride them into Planet Earth like Slim Pickens in Dr. Strangelove?
Stephen: "Other gods, confusions, mistaken thoughts, fantasies, all get trimmed away, as you keep trying to come up with new predictions, new studies."
Why then, friend Stephen, do I continue to see message after message from you that attributes natural phenomena to the willfull actions of a pantheon of demons.
Stephen: "I don't think other philosophies will survive the process, unless they are true, too."
Other philosophies have survived, and will survive, as long as people are willing to put stock in mistaken thoughts, fantasies, confusions, and pantheons of gods and godlets as the embodiment of good and evil.
Stephen: "But then, the One True God isn't out there."
Maybe not. Or maybe s/he is and does not require some silly parlor game to prove his/her existence.
Freedom from self-doubt.
Peace.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 36 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 2:06 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 43 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 3:15 PM Abshalom has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22392
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 42 of 80 (81168)
01-27-2004 3:01 PM
Reply to: Message 40 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 2:55 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
Hi, Stephen!
If we're talking about scientific experiments, then you're not making any sense at all. I asked, "Where does the scientifically developed information about which prayers work with which Gods come from?" You answered:
1. Speculation, or any proposed self-description or other description of the hypothesized spirit being. Dreams, like the idea about benzene rings. Imagination, like the quantum ideas.
There is nothing scientific whatsoever about this. It is completely subjective. Should we conclude that you have no scientific information for this?
2. You pray with and without the clause, "deliver us from the evil one." to the God, Jehovah, who is hypothesized to make the devil come or go. You also "curse" certain ones, asking Jehovah to make the devil mess with certain ones, a la Job.
And where does this information come from? If your answer is the Bible, then surely you understand the Bible is not a scientific resource and so cannot be cited in scientific work.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 40 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 2:55 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 45 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 3:22 PM Percy has replied
 Message 46 by MrHambre, posted 01-27-2004 4:11 PM Percy has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 43 of 80 (81171)
01-27-2004 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 41 by Abshalom
01-27-2004 2:58 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
A.
By "the One True God" we may assume you mean "Jehovah" yet the Jehovah portrayed in the Bible repeatedly allows man to be bamboozled by supernatural tricksters. This does not prove the existence of Jehovah. In fact, it indicates a possibility that at least one author subconsciously surmises that if a superior power exists, it is evil.
As described, He will not allow tricksters if asked correctly. And so the repeated confirmations of surprising predictions will prove that this Jehovah guy is more and more plausibly out there. Moreover, as I have insisted eleswhere, once you "know His voice" He, because He is out there, is able tell you whatever you need to know to be able to bet your life you are not being tricked. Your science makes it likely you will get to that point, which makes it certain that you are where you hope to be.
Maybe not. Or maybe s/he is and does not require some silly parlor game to prove his/her existence.
This is written, actually. These parlor games are there by grace, because we require them, not Him/Her.
And remember, I don't see demons behind every physical event. But when the event is causing problems, I get suspicious. I can't imagine that they cannot do stuff that we can do, theoretically.
S.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 41 by Abshalom, posted 01-27-2004 2:58 PM Abshalom has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 44 by Abshalom, posted 01-27-2004 3:19 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 44 of 80 (81173)
01-27-2004 3:19 PM
Reply to: Message 43 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 3:15 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
Re: Message 43:
Stephen: "I can't imagine that they cannot do stuff that we can do, theoretically."
I can't imagine that they can do the stuff we do without a corporal body.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 43 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 3:15 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has not replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 45 of 80 (81175)
01-27-2004 3:22 PM
Reply to: Message 42 by Percy
01-27-2004 3:01 PM


Re: Are You Sure Whom You Are Petitioning With Prayer?
Percy,
There is nothing scientific whatsoever about this. It is completely subjective. Should we conclude that you have no scientific information for this?
So, we throw out Benzene rings? Wavy light particles? C'mon Percy, this in nonsense. Back in the early seventies, when we were watching the philosophers of science deal with this, Polanyi, Lakatose, Popper, others, we saw certain "puritanical" scientists deal with subjective speculation ("For shame, you dirty little boy!") the way many parts of our culture were responding to sex. But we were discovering that we could safely have a lot of fun, and still raise healthy vibrant children. Still have a lot of fun, and still make really useful discoveries. The prediction making and testing process cleans up all the "dangers" of subjective (personal knowledge of Polanyi) speculation. So, lighten up. It is science, and it generates the best science. Do the google. See for yourself.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 42 by Percy, posted 01-27-2004 3:01 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 47 by Percy, posted 01-27-2004 4:49 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
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