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Author Topic:   The 3 wisemen
TheTermiteProphet
Inactive Member


Message 1 of 13 (99045)
04-10-2004 1:18 AM


Does anybody know if the bible states that there were exactly 3 wisemen or could have 6 or so wisemen brought the gifts? Sorry if i posted this question in the wrong place or it has already been answered.

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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 2 of 13 (99048)
04-10-2004 1:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by TheTermiteProphet
04-10-2004 1:18 AM


The Bible never says there were three wise men, it became the traditional view though. Probably in relation to the three gifts.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 3 of 13 (99105)
04-10-2004 2:41 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Angeldust
04-10-2004 1:44 AM


Not three and not wisemen...
The King James interpretors were so shocked upon translating the word "magi" that they refused to translate it into English, leaving it for centuries to be read as Magi. Others perverted the word into "wisemen" which in itself makes one wonder what they were thinking.
The word magi is a Persian word, that is the area of Iran today. That is also the land of Zoroastrianism.
Magi is the root of "magic" as no-no in Chritian dogma. Apparently, the mening of that word to the Persians was "Astrologers." We know that this is so, because today, belatedly, the last edition of the Catholic Bible has changed the translation to "astrologers from the east."
Check me out.
This all ties in with the fact that there was (and is to be revealed) a Hebrew Kabbalah (mysticism in that it is presently a mystery) which is found in the scriptures in the form of a well described literary contrivance in Genesis, and a symbolic analogy to support it in Exodus.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 4 of 13 (109741)
05-21-2004 7:04 PM


in all probability, the story intends that all or most of the magi came at around the time jesus would have been a small child.
the story's basic theme is a concquering of the babylonian people who had previously enslaved them. now the magi, the astrological advisors to the babylonian king ("heylel" often mistranslated "lucifer"), see a sign in the heavens that indicates their new king has been born in galilea.
personally, i doubt they would have sent just three. and they apparently made enough of a presence in jerusalem that it attracted the attention of herod, who then initiates the slaughter of the innocents, a reinterpretation of the passover story. or, at least, that's how ONE of the stories goes.

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fnord
Inactive Member


Message 5 of 13 (109828)
05-22-2004 5:13 AM
Reply to: Message 2 by Angeldust
04-10-2004 1:44 AM


....and their supposed names Casper, Balthasar and Melchior are nowhere mentioned in the Bible.
Also note that the Magi did not visit the stable, as often depicted; they went to Joseph and Mary's house in Bethlehem. It was the shepherds that came to the stable.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 6 of 13 (109962)
05-23-2004 5:44 AM
Reply to: Message 5 by fnord
05-22-2004 5:13 AM


....and their supposed names Casper, Balthasar and Melchior are nowhere mentioned in the Bible.
where the heck does that come from anyways? i'm not sure if i've even heard that before.

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fnord
Inactive Member


Message 7 of 13 (109971)
05-23-2004 6:49 AM
Reply to: Message 6 by arachnophilia
05-23-2004 5:44 AM


where the heck does that come from anyways?
The Western tradition of the names of the Magi derive from an early 6th Century Greek manuscript, translated into the Latin Excerpta Latina Barbari. The description seems to be of a mosaic of the magi, possibly those at Ravenna. A pseudo-Bedan text, Collectanea or Excerpta et Collectanea apparently continues the tradition of three kings. The text is said to be from the 8th or 9th century, of Irish origin, and first found in a printed edition of works ascribed to St. Bede the Venerable (673-735) at Basel in 1563.
source: http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/...and_their_na.htm

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macaroniandcheese 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3928 days)
Posts: 4258
Joined: 05-24-2004


Message 8 of 13 (127039)
07-23-2004 3:46 PM
Reply to: Message 3 by kofh2u
04-10-2004 2:41 PM


Re: Not three and not wisemen...
all nature sings the glory of god. what more mystical thing could there be?

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Amlodhi
Inactive Member


Message 9 of 13 (127047)
07-23-2004 4:10 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
05-21-2004 7:04 PM


quote:
Originally posted by Arachnophilia
. . . or, at least, that's how ONE of the stories goes.
Exactly. In reality, there were likely no "wiseman" visitations at all. Just a corrupted rendition of a former understanding regarding the significance of a trigonal conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in Pisces.
IMHO,
Amlodhi

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 10 of 13 (127089)
07-23-2004 5:53 PM
Reply to: Message 4 by arachnophilia
05-21-2004 7:04 PM


babylonia?
no.
The magi were Persian Astrologers,...
...Persia was modern day Iran...
...while Iraq was Babyloia.

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kofh2u
Member (Idle past 3820 days)
Posts: 1162
From: phila., PA
Joined: 04-05-2004


Message 11 of 13 (127096)
07-23-2004 6:05 PM
Reply to: Message 9 by Amlodhi
07-23-2004 4:10 PM


corript?
You opinion is as valid at St Matthew, the text, of course.
Nd the astronomical chronology is supposedly correct, but not accepted enough to help date the actual year of the birth of zJesus, which remains debated.
However, whether or not magi vidited as the tale goes, it is no midtake that we find the story here, in scripture. For what ever reason, Astrologers of some particular type apparently are acceptable and wekcome visitors by the Chriist and Holy Family. That's the Word.
The implication seems to support the fact that the Jews, until this very day, revere a Jewish Astrology, Kabbalah. Tghe rabbi study historical Kabbalah, what we would call Jewish Mysticism, and which they, the Rabbi, define as "The Secret Esoteric Knowledge of Israel."
In this nagi story, it appears the long held dislike for astrology in Christian theology has a gaooing hole available for Jew inputs.

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 12 of 13 (127248)
07-24-2004 2:51 AM
Reply to: Message 9 by Amlodhi
07-23-2004 4:10 PM


Exactly. In reality, there were likely no "wiseman" visitations at all. Just a corrupted rendition of a former understanding regarding the significance of a trigonal conjunction of Saturn and Jupiter in Pisces.
i had hear it was jupiter and something else in aries, but i might be remembering wrong. i'm pretty sure aries was involved, because i remember seeing a coing dated about 6bc with a picture of a ram and a comet.
that, and i'm an aries too, which i think is cool.
but yes, i doubt the wisemen thing actually happened too, but i don't totally disbelieve it. afterall, the buddhist monks do something very similar.
(hey... maybe jesus = buddha? lol)
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 07-24-2004 01:51 AM

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arachnophilia
Member (Idle past 1344 days)
Posts: 9069
From: god's waiting room
Joined: 05-21-2004


Message 13 of 13 (127249)
07-24-2004 2:52 AM
Reply to: Message 10 by kofh2u
07-23-2004 5:53 PM


Re: babylonia?
The magi were Persian Astrologers,...
...Persia was modern day Iran...
you sure? i'll check on that too, becuase i'm not sure myself.
[edit]
looked up a bit. magi, traditionally, are in fact persian. but the babylonian symbolism aspect makes a lot more sense to me.
This message has been edited by Arachnophilia, 07-24-2004 01:59 AM

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