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Author Topic:   Why Would a Loving God Create Hell?
Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 61 of 196 (67242)
11-17-2003 9:29 PM
Reply to: Message 60 by w_fortenberry
11-17-2003 8:35 PM


Is this really the time to prosthelytize? Implicit in your statement "and it is my hope that Judy had accepted the loving God who created heaven." is the statement "because if she didn't....", which is a really mean thing to bring up, especially in a thread about Hell.
Should I have responded to Percy's statement with, "and I sincerely hope that if she did believe in Christ, with all her heart, that she was right and didn't end up in another God's hell as punishment for believing in the wrong God or following the wrong commandments."? No. Why? Because it's not nice to use someone else's loss to try and score points for your side in a debate.
------------------
"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."
[This message has been edited by Rei, 11-17-2003]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 60 by w_fortenberry, posted 11-17-2003 8:35 PM w_fortenberry has not replied

  
abdul
Inactive Junior Member


Message 62 of 196 (72804)
12-14-2003 1:56 AM


who says god is loving??
christians want to believe that.

  
Prometheus
Inactive Member


Message 63 of 196 (74058)
12-18-2003 8:56 AM


i posted this in the other one (Innocents in Hell, Guilty in Heaven?)
but i will ask it here as well
quote:
(me)
if i take a new born and keep them in a room with no contact to the out side, and as he grow up teach him all i thank he should learn and let him know nothing about any god at all ect.... then kill him could god send him to hell.
(i would never do anything like that. THe man in the box is like the people that live with 0 contact with any people have no way of knowing that the "Black Goat" is not the real god. So they lack knowledge of God or that of jesus.)
would God send that kid after 20 years of this 2 hell ?
quote:
(REI)
Is this really the time to prosthelytize? Implicit in your statement "and it is my hope that Judy had accepted the loving God who created heaven." is the statement "because if she didn't....", which is a really mean thing to bring up, especially in a thread about Hell.
Should I have responded to Percy's statement with, "and I sincerely hope that if she did believe in Christ, with all her heart, that she was right and didn't end up in another God's hell as punishment for believing in the wrong God or following the wrong commandments."? No. Why? Because it's not nice to use someone else's loss to try and score points for your side in a debate.
I thank that is the christians way of trying to confort someone, not sure how it works but i guess it make them feel better when someone that was dear to them dies, that they "know" where they are going (in afterlife).
(PS: Bah should have looked over it first
[This message has been edited by Prometheus, 12-18-2003]

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 64 of 196 (74456)
12-20-2003 4:44 PM
Reply to: Message 2 by Rrhain
11-10-2003 9:56 PM


Yes that is the choice and just because you reject the choice doesn't mean you are exempt from the consequences.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 2 by Rrhain, posted 11-10-2003 9:56 PM Rrhain has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rrhain
Member
Posts: 6351
From: San Diego, CA, USA
Joined: 05-03-2003


Message 65 of 196 (74530)
12-21-2003 6:10 AM
Reply to: Message 64 by Cold Foreign Object
12-20-2003 4:44 PM


WILLOWTREE responds to me:
quote:
Yes that is the choice and just because you reject the choice doesn't mean you are exempt from the consequences.
BZZZZT!
Pascal's Wager. I'm so sorry, WILLOWTREE. Johnny, tell him what parting gifts he has!
Well, Bob, WILLOWTREE has won himself a lifetime of anguish in someone else's hell! Yes, that's right. After spending all of his life fighting against Satan and worshipping the Christian god, WILLOWTREE gets a reward of going straight to Hades for his hubris. He'll be sentenced to solve a series of puzzles for which the instructions can be read in many ways. Every attempt to glean more information will be met with "Since it would just be a waste of my time to tell you, I won't." Of course, every proposed solution will conflict with something in the contradictory instructions. This being for his continued insistence that those around him are unworthy of explanations.
But, he won't get hungry because he'll have an afterlife-time supply of Rice-a-Roni, the San Francisco Treat.
You didn't really think that the god that truly exists is the Christian one, did you?
------------------
Rrhain
WWJD? JWRTFM!

This message is a reply to:
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soljafolife
Inactive Junior Member


Message 66 of 196 (78347)
01-14-2004 6:37 AM


God is Love, and Love Never Fails, because He's All Powerful
This is a message I wrote to a friend, not specifically about "free-will", but definitely in direct relation. It`s foolish for us to assume that we can do anything independent of God the Father. The word "free" by definition means "not controlled by obligation or the will of another", or, "not disturbed by any outside influences", this would include the influence of God also. If we were really "free" then there would be no point in praying for anyone, since God himself couldn`t influence them (and he`s All-Powerful). If we were truly "free" then we could choose to see the truth, whether, or not God wanted us to, but it`s evident that only God can open the eyes of the blind (Deut.29:4), so if he never opens your eyes you`ll never see! Some will say that God gives you a choice, then, if you pick the right one, he`ll influence you to live out that choice, but that wouldn`t even be consistent with scripture. Sure, God sets choices in front of us, just as Pharoah, but the choice is already made, for the works were finished from the foundation of the world (age-Greek), which is found in Heb.4:3. Also, he has declared the end from the beginning, and from ancient times, the things that are not yet done, saying my counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure (Isa.46:9-11). There`s so much the scriptures say refuting the false notion of free will that I would be typing for hours, so before you read what I told my friend I`ll say one more thing; Everyone has a heart, and the heart is the will of the man (or woman), but God fashions the heart (Psa.33:15), so then EVERYTHING that is in the will of the man to do is because God made it so...........Enjoy!
Anyway, so you know, I believe that eventually, God shall recieve the restitution of All things (Acts.3:19-21) in the dispensation of the fulness of times (Eph.1:10), and when that happens, God shall be All in All (1Cor.15:28). For no man can say that Jesus is Lord, but by the Holy Ghost (Spirit--same thing, 1Cor.12:3), and eventually, At the name of Jesus Every knee shall bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that Every tongue shall confess that Jesus Christ is Lord (Phil.2:9-11). I can see that your intelligent, I just hope that you don`t assume that I`m saying anything, because most do (I`m not saying you are though). Just for clarification purposes, I never said that there wasn`t a Hell, or a Lake of Fire, or that sinners were not going to be in them. Likewise, I never asserted that Jesus Christ wasn`t the only way to the Father (John.14:6), what I am saying though, is that All have sinned and come short of God`s glory (Rom.3:23) and we that we are saved by grace through faith; and that not of yourselves: It is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast (Eph.2:8,9), because if we couldn`t come to Jesus, unless God the Father was drawing us (John.6:44), then we shouldn`t be bragging anyway, because if we could`ve come to Jesus without the Father's draw, then we would be
free, and Jesus would also be a liar, but we know that neither of these statements are true, because no one can resist the Will of God (Rom.9:19).
I`m not trying to preach to you, I`m just expressing what I believe God has revealed to me. If I`m wrong, then I pray that God open my eyes to the truth, for only he can open the eyes of the blind (Deut.29:4), and If I`m right, then All the glory goes to God. With that said, allow me to speak openly about the scriptures..............................If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam All die, even so in Christ shall All be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ`s at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he (Jesus) must reign, till he (God the Father) hath put all enemies under his (Jesus') feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he (God the Father) hath put all things under his (Jesus) feet. But when he (God the Father) saith, All things are put under him (Jesus), it is manifest that he (God the Father) is excepted, which did put all things under him (Jesus). And when All things shall be subdued unto him (Jesus), then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him (God the Father), that God may be All in All (1Cor.15:19-28).
You see, the word "restitution" literally means, by definition, to return to the rightful owner All that was taken away, lost, or surrendered, and Jesus came to seek and to save that which was lost (Luke.19:10), and He can`t fail, for God is Love (1 John.4:8), it`s not an attribute (Love) of God, it`s what he is, and Love (Charity) never fails (1Cor.13:8), it`s impossible, because He`s All-Powerful. That`s also why he can`t lie, because how can you lie when everything you say is becomes the truth, even if God tried (even though an All powerful being doesn't try, or want, just does!) to spread a rumor, as soon as he spoke it, as a matter of fact, as soon as he thought it, it would become truth! He said let there be light, and boom!, there it was. So since God is All-Powerful, then whatever he wants to happen will happen, which means that if God want`s something to happen, then it`s impossible for anyone to stop it, likewise if He doesn`t want something to happen it`s impossible for anyone to accomplish it, because He`s All-Powerful. So if God isn`t willing that anyone perish (2 Pet.3:9)...........how can it happen?
Listen, God can`t fail, and to fail literally means to "miss the mark", which translated from the Greek is defined by one word, "Sin". We know that there is no sin in God, because God can`t fail, so, with that being said, If Jesus said "If I be lifted up from the earth (which he has been) I`ll draw all men unto me" (John.12:32), and all men haven`t been drawn to him, in fact I`ll go further, All HAVEN`T heard of Christ, plenty have passed on without hearing of Him. He told the disciples to "Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature" (Mark.16:15), and while it`s obvious that he said that, it`s also abundantly clear that knowledge was still limited at the time, because the Apostles didn`t have access to automobiles, planes, telephones, pagers, the internet, etc. The printing press, which was invented by Johann Gutenberg, wasn`t available, until the year 1450. So, if God (who is All-Loving) can`t fail, and he made that statement in John.12:32, and MOST have passed on without even hearing of Christ, then that Must mean that he will draw All, eventually, every man in his own order (1Cor.15.23). I know that I`ve written a lot, but trust me, there`s much, much more. Please tell me what you think...........and if this is not making any sense, please tell what you think of this passage of scripture: For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manisfestation of the sons of God. For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope; Because the creature itself also shall be delievered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it (Rom.8:19-25). Just a side note, when it says "the whole creation" in ver.8 and when it says "the creature" in verses.19, 20, 21, these are literally translated as the words "every creature" as is illustrated in Mark.16:15 and Col.1:23. The words "to wit" in ver.23 simply means "in other words", and just so there`s no confusion, you can substitute the word "liberty" in ver.21 for the word "freedom" (they`re synonymous terms). Anyway, please write back, I`d love to hear what you think, until then, Peace!

Replies to this message:
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pilgrim
Inactive Member


Message 67 of 196 (80484)
01-24-2004 3:00 PM
Reply to: Message 66 by soljafolife
01-14-2004 6:37 AM


God said, "Say unto them, As I live, saith the Lord God, I have NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked; but that the wicked turn from his way and live."(EZEKIAL 33:11) Revelation says that God "created ALL things, and for (His) pleasure they are and were created. Did God create the soul that goes into hell. Absolutely. Does God Take pleasure in this. Absolutely not. I don't claim to know alot, but I do believe the Bible must be taken as a whole and that no scripture is of any private interpretation (that is to say interpretted exclusive of other passages). Deuteronomy 30:19 exhorts "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE life that, that both thou and thy seed may live:". Proverbs says of those who "set at nought" the counsel of God, that "that they hated knowledge and did not CHOOSE the fear of the Lord." To say that men have no choice would make God and His purpose arbitrary. All men are invited to come to God. "For God so loved the WORLD that he gave his only begotten Son that WHOSOEVER believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life." Revelation 22:17 says, "And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And WHOSOEVER will take the water of life freely." I Peter 1:2 says that saints are elect according to the foreknowledge of God. This is the divine order; God foreknows and election is according to foreknowledge. Romans 8:29 says For whom he did foreknow he also did predestinate, not to salvation, but to conformity to Christ's image. We are pre destinated to adoption (Ephesians 1:5) which is different which is not the same as Birth. God Knows everything reguardless of when it occurs. He knew from the beginning who would recieve Him. God is Sovereign and is God enough to permit men to choose their own eternal destination.
Example: I Samuel 23:8-14... David hears that Sual is coming to the city of Keilah to find him. David asks God, "Will the men of Keilah deliver me up into his hand?" God says, "They will deliver thee up."
So David flees so that the men of Kielah couold not deliver him up. Did God lie, or was He mistaken. No, God simply knows everything. He knew what WOULD have happened yet He did not CAUSE it to happen, and so David took measures to see that it would not happen.
God is a Loving God, but that is not His only attribute. He is Omnipotent, everpresent, All Knowing, Righteous, Just, Holy, Wrathful, He Hates Evil, He is angry with the wicked everyday, and yet in His mercy which allows Him not to give us all what we deserve for killing His Son (Hell). Jesus took our sins upon Him, paying our sin debt and allowing the Father to be Just in Justifying all that come to Him in Faith. God's grace allows Him to shower upon us all His riches which we do not deserve. I Gave my Heart to Jesus, in my car , on HWY 85, about exit 100, around 6:00 pm, on September 9, 1999. Please don't misunderstand me. I don't claim to be special in any sense, I simply want to say that I know that Jesus Christ is the One that everyone is searching for, they just won't see it 'till they believe it. He is much more than I ever desired.
[This message has been edited by pilgrim, 01-24-2004]

This message is a reply to:
 Message 66 by soljafolife, posted 01-14-2004 6:37 AM soljafolife has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 70 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-25-2004 8:18 AM pilgrim has not replied

  
Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 68 of 196 (80580)
01-24-2004 11:37 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rand Al'Thor
11-10-2003 2:17 AM


I don't know if this will help at all. I'm not even sure yet what I think about my next statements because I just came across the idea today....
This is an section taken out of the book "The Church in Emerging Culture." from the essay entitled "under the heaven tree" by Frederica Mathewes-Green.
"Will everyone spend eternity in the presence of God?
Everyone will spend eternity in the presence of God. No place exists apart from God's presence, even now. There is no separate corner in the afterlife where demons will be allowed to torture humans forever because that would be a reward for the Evil One. He is not rewarded but defeated.....
What, then is hell?
Our God is a consuming fire. Those who have turned to Christ and prepared themselves in this life will experience that river of fire as light, warmth, and life. We see a glimpse of what this is like in Christ's trnsfiguration on Mount Tabor. This life is a process of turning increasingly toward Christ, learning to bear that uncreated light, getting the impurities out of our lump of coal. We must grow stronger and learn to bear his fire. Those who have not accepted Christ will experience his presence as burning and darkness and gnashing of teeth. All misery of this life and the next is due to not knowing Christ."
I'm not sure if I agree with some of the ideas in this text, but it makes me stop and think for a moment. God did not create a place of punishment for humans. He is a fire that we have to learn how to handle, and our failure to prepare ourselves to come into his presence is what causes the suffering. No matter what pop theology will tell you there is no watering down the difficulty of living a Christian life. I believe that Christians probably have a worse time dealing with themselves internally than anyone else. Christians spend their lives burning internally with all the things that God says are wrong and so when they come into his presence all the things that would burn away are already gone. Non-Christians haven't prepared themselves and therefore they cannot handle the fire of God.
Like I said, the thoughts are probably far from complete, but it does give one something to consider.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 11-10-2003 2:17 AM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 01-25-2004 1:10 AM Angeldust has replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 69 of 196 (80589)
01-25-2004 1:10 AM
Reply to: Message 68 by Angeldust
01-24-2004 11:37 PM


Hell No! We won't go!
As a Christian, even I do not understand the concept of Hell. I know that according to my belief, Hell was not created for people. It was to be the destination freely chosen by the rebellious spirits that did not want to be under Gods authority. A human only ends up there by following one of the wannabe gods instead of the True God.
Personally, why won;t God just allow those who do not want to serve Him to cease to exist instead of burning for eternity? Kinda like the Death penalty for Demons. Anyway, I hope that if Hell is real none of us in this forum ever go there. If I ever get a "get out of Hell free" card, I will save it for you!

This message is a reply to:
 Message 68 by Angeldust, posted 01-24-2004 11:37 PM Angeldust has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 71 by Angeldust, posted 01-25-2004 1:53 PM Phat has replied

  
Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 70 of 196 (80604)
01-25-2004 8:18 AM
Reply to: Message 67 by pilgrim
01-24-2004 3:00 PM


Getting in right
Hey, Pilgrim,
Thought that your post was right on target, and deserved a response. That God is love, and that God created Hell, and that people who choose death, who refuse to choose the fear of God end up there, are simply part of a picture. The task is not to set our logic up to judge, and possibly throw out the picture. It's to enter in as fully as possible, asking for understanding, and let the Spirit make sense of it all as we mature. What's the sense in a five year old saying, "I don't see how calculus can work, so I'm not going to learn to add?"
But, how do you understand "Receive the love of the truth?" or "Buy the truth, and do not sell it." What really is love? What really is the truth?
Thanks for letting your light shine.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
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Angeldust
Inactive Member


Message 71 of 196 (80658)
01-25-2004 1:53 PM
Reply to: Message 69 by Phat
01-25-2004 1:10 AM


Re: Hell No! We won't go!
I completely agree with you in the thought line that Hell wasn't created for humans. I'm don't understand all the concepts behind hell, but I do know that it exists. How a loving God can make people suffer is not something that is ever easily answers.
The above post of mine was simply a statement that I came across that could have some interesting implications. I'm not sure that I beleive it, but it's something to consider. God is love, we just have to learn to handle the light of God's love and holiness.
Thanks for your show of concern though, I'm not heading there either. Christ is my "Get our of Hell Free Card"

This message is a reply to:
 Message 69 by Phat, posted 01-25-2004 1:10 AM Phat has replied

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 Message 72 by Phat, posted 01-25-2004 2:32 PM Angeldust has not replied

  
Phat
Member
Posts: 18262
From: Denver,Colorado USA
Joined: 12-30-2003
Member Rating: 1.1


Message 72 of 196 (80670)
01-25-2004 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 71 by Angeldust
01-25-2004 1:53 PM


Bzzzz! And now some lovely parting gifts!
Yeah and to clarify myself, I was not meaning to imply that anyone would need my "Get out of Hell Free" card anyway. Based on my own Belief, I better keep it, eh?
In many stories of human struggle and cosmic galactic battles such as star wars, there are often some pretty impressive plot twists.
The characters who should receive the answers sometimes do not, whereas the characters whom no one thinks will survive do occasionally survive. C.S.Lewis says that the Bible has just enough of a plot twist to make it a plausible truth as opposed to a work of fiction. Lewis also says this about the question of whether he believed in the Devil:
The commonest question is whether I really "believe in the Devil." Now, if by "the Devil" you mean a power opposite to God and, like God, self-existent from all eternity, the answer is certainly No. There is no uncreated being except God. God has no opposite. No being could attain a "perfect badness" opposite to the perfect goodness of God; for when you have taken away every kind of good thing (intelligence, will, memory, energy, and existence itself) there would be none of him left.
The proper question is whether I believe in devils. I do. That is to say, I believe in angels, and I believe that some of these, by the abuse of their free will, have become enemies to God and, as a corollary, to us. These we may call devils. They do not differ in nature from good angels, but their nature is depraved. Devil is the opposite of angel only as Bad Man is the opposite of Good Man. Satan, is the leader or dictator of devils, is the opposite, not of God, but of Michael.
C.S. Lewis was a great intellect, and yet he was a believer in the reality of Jesus. He defends this in many ways, most notable:
However, if you ask yourself why would a group of first century men and women conspire to propagate a lie about a little known preacher being God, then the above argument becomes stronger. What would it gain the disciples? It went against Jewish belief that a man could be God. They were persecuted, tortured and killed for their beliefs. What caused and empowered a bunch of uneducated, blue-collar workers (i.e. fishermen, tax men and carpenters) to turn the world upside down in the space of a couple of generations?

This message is a reply to:
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Stephen ben Yeshua
Inactive Member


Message 73 of 196 (81169)
01-27-2004 3:04 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rand Al'Thor
11-10-2003 2:17 AM


Passionate love.
Rand Al'thor,
Passionate love, coupled with jealousy, makes Hell reasonable. If God loves as He is supposed to, then those who hurt those He loves, and those who betray His love, cause Him such deep pain that they deserve Hell. It's only just.
Stephen

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Rand Al'Thor, posted 11-10-2003 2:17 AM Rand Al'Thor has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 74 by :æ:, posted 01-27-2004 3:11 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

  
:æ: 
Suspended Member (Idle past 7185 days)
Posts: 423
Joined: 07-23-2003


Message 74 of 196 (81170)
01-27-2004 3:11 PM
Reply to: Message 73 by Stephen ben Yeshua
01-27-2004 3:04 PM


Re: Passionate love.
Stephen ben Yeshua writes:
Passionate love, coupled with jealousy, makes Hell reasonable. If God loves as He is supposed to, then those who hurt those He loves, and those who betray His love, cause Him such deep pain that they deserve Hell. It's only just.
Disagree. According to your Holy Book, if one is smitten on the cheek, he is not supposed to retailiate with wrath, but is supposed to offer the other cheek.
Doesn't your God practice what he supposedly preaches?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 73 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 3:04 PM Stephen ben Yeshua has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 76 by Stephen ben Yeshua, posted 01-27-2004 3:31 PM :æ: has not replied

  
Abshalom
Inactive Member


Message 75 of 196 (81172)
01-27-2004 3:15 PM
Reply to: Message 1 by Rand Al'Thor
11-10-2003 2:17 AM


No Heaven Above No Hell Below
Rand Al'Thor:
Valhallah is for pagan warriors, who being in thier prime were hard to convince to rush the ramparts without the promise of an eternal reward ala 72 virgins.
Hell is for the control of unruly mobs and hyperactive children who were taken in hand to the Garbage Gate and shown the eternally smoldering heaps of offal by their grandfathers who warned them, "If you don't straighten your asses out, that is where you will spend eternity!"
Peace right here on Earth, my friends. It's all the reward we need.
[This message has been edited by Abshalom, 01-27-2004]

This message is a reply to:
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