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Author Topic:   What is a True Christian?
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 121 of 329 (110851)
05-27-2004 9:38 AM
Reply to: Message 115 by Gilgamesh
05-26-2004 11:42 PM


Re: What true Christains are.
Like I said, just check out the difference in harmony between atheists/agnostics vs theists on this forum.
Then their actions are limited to the topics on this forum. They agree on not believing in God, so that makes it easy to get along. I haven't seen any of these people owe up to what they believe in yet, and it was told to me, that if they confessed what they believe in, that I would only tear them apart for it. Which is not true.
I follow a religion, but it is not my sole guide in life. I am led by what I believe to be the Holy Spirit. Which is directly from the man. I do my best.
Most of the people in my church feel the same way. We operate in a fore-runner spirit. In other words we try to keep up with the times, while still remain true to the core teachings of Jesus. It is affliated with one of the larger groups of churches in the nation though. But its the people that make the church, not the church.
So has True Christianity begun with you and your brethren? Does this mean True Christianity is only very young or can you trace a unbroken path of this True Christianity back to Christ and the origins of the Bible?
Do you agree with the Catholic Church's interpretation of Genesis or do you believe in a literal interpretation (we don't have to dwell on this)?
I cannot trace a path for you. I don't think there is one. It seems people get fed up with mans interprtation of the Bible, and make new religions all the time to get back to being true Christians.
Some of it is good, but most of it is probably not.
I believe Genesis was only a dream. Its a cool story with the word of God in it. I believe God created us. Exactly how he did it, remains to be seen. There is alot of truth in Genesis.
I am glad that you have broken free of the burden of one belief system, but please explain how it is that you feel that your are no longer burdened?
Because I am led by the Spirit.
Why the heck did you bother with it then. This sounds like a classic case of parental influence.
You may feel that you escaped that yoke, but unfortunately your parents have predisposed you to religious beliefs in any form. Out of the frying pan into the fire?
I can't figure out what my mother believes in, and my father believes in Jesus, but does not practice it at all, never really showed us anything about it either, other than his actions in life. He is a good person.
Try another theory.
You need God because your upbringing predisposed you to religious beliefs (not to mention the evolutionary predisposition we all have towards religiousity). You shed one spiritual system and fill the maw with another. Maybe a better one, and if so, that is good. Arguably, it is no more true than the other one though. Well that's what we're debating in this thread, isn't it?
I never really had a belief. I was always angry at the church. I believed in TOE for all those years.
I really feel it has nothing to do with what you are saying. It was the Holy Spirit, that did me in.
I had felt the Spirit at other times in my life, but never really knew thats what it was. It wasn't until I figured it out from the teachings of Jesus, that it all made sense.
We are slaves to sin, but when you really give yourself to Jesus, and recieve his Holy Spirit, you become a slave to righteousness.
I was studying the Bible looking for answer that pertain to this thread last night, and I found something interesting. It is what I already felt.
Romans
9 You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ.
10 But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness.
11 And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ
I found this to be very interesting.
The Spirit of Christ is the Holy Spirit.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 115 by Gilgamesh, posted 05-26-2004 11:42 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 126 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-27-2004 9:51 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 122 of 329 (110852)
05-27-2004 9:42 AM
Reply to: Message 106 by Gilgamesh
05-26-2004 9:23 PM


Re: Tad off topic
Thanks.
Six of them, lol.
Temporal lobe experience?
I really shouldn't try to explain what I feel to you(because it is for you and no-one else), but its not that. I know what that feeling is.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 106 by Gilgamesh, posted 05-26-2004 9:23 PM Gilgamesh has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4437 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 123 of 329 (110853)
05-27-2004 9:45 AM
Reply to: Message 119 by purpledawn
05-27-2004 8:20 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
quote:
IMO the statement has nothing at all to do with whether one has accepted Christ or not.
Well, it serves as a starting point at least. Of course, this does not naturally mean that someone shows 'Christian-like' behaviour.
So, to be a true Christian, you must not only believe in Christ as the divine Messiah; a certain standard of behaviour is also required. Otherwise Hitler and other madmen of his caliber can be called true Christians.
What standard of behaviour must be adhered to?
The Rock Hound

This message is a reply to:
 Message 119 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2004 8:20 AM purpledawn has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by riVeRraT, posted 05-27-2004 9:50 AM IrishRockhound has replied
 Message 131 by purpledawn, posted 05-27-2004 12:45 PM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 124 of 329 (110854)
05-27-2004 9:49 AM
Reply to: Message 116 by Buzsaw
05-26-2004 11:56 PM


Re: What true Christains are.
I think you didn't understand what I meant.
I said 80% of all people, not religions.
That means doctors, lawyers, car mechanics, etc.
Doesn't matter their belief.
So the same would be true of Christians, IMO.
It also relates to what I have seen in life, and how people interpret the Bible, and/or Jesus's teachings.
But again, I am not judging those people. I am just not choosing to believe them, or follow them.
In other words, there is probably very few "true Christain " indeed.
This IMO, should not stop you from trying to find your God.
Because of the fact that you can see alot of Christian religons are screwd up, is a good thing for you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 116 by Buzsaw, posted 05-26-2004 11:56 PM Buzsaw has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 125 of 329 (110855)
05-27-2004 9:50 AM
Reply to: Message 123 by IrishRockhound
05-27-2004 9:45 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
See message 121.
Romans 8:9-11.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-27-2004 9:45 AM IrishRockhound has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-27-2004 9:52 AM riVeRraT has replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4437 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 126 of 329 (110856)
05-27-2004 9:51 AM
Reply to: Message 121 by riVeRraT
05-27-2004 9:38 AM


Re: What true Christians are.
Gilgamesh, RiverRat - let's try to stay on topic here. If you want to discuss religious beliefs I'm sure the Admin will open another thread for you.
I really think we need to get this resolved. We are limited to two choices - not using the term 'true Christian' because it's so vague (not likely), or settling on a definition that is in some way consistent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by riVeRraT, posted 05-27-2004 9:38 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
IrishRockhound
Member (Idle past 4437 days)
Posts: 569
From: Ireland
Joined: 05-19-2003


Message 127 of 329 (110857)
05-27-2004 9:52 AM
Reply to: Message 125 by riVeRraT
05-27-2004 9:50 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
RiverRat, I'm not a Christian and I don't own a bible, so quoting verses at me is just a little pointless.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 125 by riVeRraT, posted 05-27-2004 9:50 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 129 by riVeRraT, posted 05-27-2004 10:04 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 128 of 329 (110859)
05-27-2004 10:01 AM
Reply to: Message 117 by Buzsaw
05-27-2004 12:18 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
When you start doing that, you start judging others, which goes against Jesus's teachings.
Those people will be judged by the father, based on their lives.
Some were created for dis-honor, and some for honor. It is all his doing. Its all for his glory, even the harsh judgements from God. We can only judge ourselves.
Isaiah 54:16
"See, it is I who created the blacksmith who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for its work. And it is I who have created the destroyer to work havoc;

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Buzsaw, posted 05-27-2004 12:18 AM Buzsaw has not replied

  
riVeRraT
Member (Idle past 416 days)
Posts: 5788
From: NY USA
Joined: 05-09-2004


Message 129 of 329 (110860)
05-27-2004 10:04 AM
Reply to: Message 127 by IrishRockhound
05-27-2004 9:52 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
How else would we find the answer.
Being Christian is from the bible, for us.
We weren't there when he came, so all we have is the bible to learn about it. It is the instruction booklet that shows us the way to him.
It worked for me.
Since webster defines being christian as believing in Christ, and following his teachings, we must refer to the bible.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 127 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-27-2004 9:52 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 130 of 329 (110862)
05-27-2004 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 120 by riVeRraT
05-27-2004 8:48 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Yes I am a Christian. But that really isn't saying much is it?

Aslan is not a Tame Lion

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by riVeRraT, posted 05-27-2004 8:48 AM riVeRraT has not replied

  
purpledawn
Member (Idle past 3458 days)
Posts: 4453
From: Indiana
Joined: 04-25-2004


Message 131 of 329 (110894)
05-27-2004 12:45 PM
Reply to: Message 123 by IrishRockhound
05-27-2004 9:45 AM


Re: What is actually necessary to be a Christian
Personally, I expect at least a reasonble attempt at the following in bold:
quote:
...the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control...
especially self-control.
Any church or Bible study I have been a part of has taught that Christians should strive to exude the above behaviors.
Now I realize that we all fall short of this behavioral goal at any given time in our lives; but since a writer chooses what words to write and which ones to edit, I truly see no excuse for harsh or abusive language.

A gentle answer turns away wrath, But a harsh word stirs up anger.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 123 by IrishRockhound, posted 05-27-2004 9:45 AM IrishRockhound has not replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 132 of 329 (110943)
05-27-2004 5:02 PM
Reply to: Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object
05-24-2004 11:27 PM


Dear Willowtree;
quote:
I read a lot of subjective rules that probably originate from your denomination. I cannot find one word of gospel in your post. Where is the good news/gospel ? I bet you cannot even properly define the gospel much less communicate what it means.
The "subjective rules" are what is stated in the Bible and are not subjective, at least not for those who wish to be true followers of Christ. I did not cover the Good News in my post which was a reply to a number of questions, but if you would have checked the link I included http://www.watchtower.org/library/rq/index.htm you will find the Good News, here is another link as well on the Good News http://www.watchtower.org/library/jt/article_04.htm
I didn't directly mention the Good News or the gospels since neither was asked about and posting at length would have made for a overly long post so I included the links. I would be happy to discuss the Good News and the Meaning of the Gospels with you. John 3:16
Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 57 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-24-2004 11:27 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-28-2004 12:13 AM wmscott has replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 133 of 329 (110944)
05-27-2004 5:05 PM
Reply to: Message 74 by riVeRraT
05-25-2004 9:19 AM


Dear Riverrat;
quote:
Jehvah witness's have changed the Bible to get rid of the Holy Spirit, thereby being guilty of couterfeit Christianity. They don't believe in it. Acts 1:8 But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." You cannot be a witness to Jesus, until you have been baptized by the Holy Spirit.
To the best of my knowledge, there are no christian religions that don't believe in the holy spirit, it would be ridiculous for any one to believe in God and yet not believe in the holy spirit. Here is a link to the Official Jehovah's Witnesses site on the web and as you can see, we very much do belive in the holy spirit. http://www.watchtower.org/library/ti/article_07.htm It sounds like you have been mis informed, I would suggest you that you do some searches on that web site and find out what we really believe. I liked the scripture you cited, it is being fulfilled today in the world wide witnessing work being done by the true followers of Christ in this time of the end and is a easy way to identify those who really are following Christ.
Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 74 by riVeRraT, posted 05-25-2004 9:19 AM riVeRraT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 136 by riVeRraT, posted 05-28-2004 11:06 PM wmscott has replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 134 of 329 (111003)
05-28-2004 12:13 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by wmscott
05-27-2004 5:02 PM


No wmscott you are avoiding the defectiveness of your post.
It contained nothing about the gospel BECAUSE Moses is in your heart not Jesus.
Your message is:
Jesus saves but after conversion the way to relate to God/Jesus is via conforming to a code of conduct/law keeping.
The gospel wasn't on your heart because no matter what you now claim it takes a back seat to surface conformity to Moses law.
Moses is dead. He wasn't allowed into the promise land because God is teaching a larger truth that conformity to Law doesn't get you in the promise land - only faith does, which by definition has nothing to do with Mosaic law. (Romans 3:20, 21 NewKJV)
Moses was too associated with the Law, he could not enter because it would serve as a "distruth" to the truth that only faith inherits the promises of God/entering the promise land. (Hebrews 3)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by wmscott, posted 05-27-2004 5:02 PM wmscott has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by wmscott, posted 05-28-2004 7:20 PM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
wmscott
Member (Idle past 6248 days)
Posts: 580
From: Sussex, WI USA
Joined: 12-19-2001


Message 135 of 329 (111256)
05-28-2004 7:20 PM
Reply to: Message 134 by Cold Foreign Object
05-28-2004 12:13 AM


The Law of The Christ
Dear Willowtree;
quote:
Moses is in your heart not Jesus. Your message is: Jesus saves but after conversion the way to relate to God/Jesus is via conforming to a code of conduct/law keeping. The gospel wasn't on your heart because no matter what you now claim it takes a back seat to surface conformity to Moses law.
I am not a follower of the law of Moses, the scriptures I cited were all from the NT, not the OT, I wasn't referring to the old law code. Christ ended the law with his sacrificial death, the law of Moses came to an end in eyes of God. (Romans 10:4) "For Christ is the end of the Law," Christians are not under the law of Moses, but are under the law of Christ. (Galatians 6:2) "the law of the Christ." This change is referred to at (Hebrews 7:12) "For since the priesthood is being changed, there comes to be of necessity a change also of the law." But what is the law of the Christ you may ask? The law of Christ is a set of principles that we must live by if we are to please God, but where as the law of Moses was written on stone tables the law of Christ was to be written on our hearts. (Hebrews 10:15-16) "Moreover, the holy spirit also bears witness to us, for after it has said: "'This is the covenant that I shall covenant toward them after those days,' says Jehovah. 'I will put my laws in their hearts, and in their minds I shall write them,"" This is the "New Covenant" sealed with Christ's blood. We are indeed saved by faith, but if that faith doesn't move us to live by the commands of Jesus Christ, that faith is dead. (James 2:26) "faith without works is dead." If we claim to be a follower of Jesus and yet willingly practice wicked things, we have disowned the faith. (1 Timothy 5:8) "Certainly if anyone does not provide for those who are his own, and especially for those who are members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith." (Titus 1:16) "They publicly declare they know God, but they disown him by their works, because they are detestable and disobedient and not approved for good work of any sort." (Matthew 7:16) "By their fruits YOU will recognize them. Never do people gather grapes from thorns or figs from thistles, do they?" Clearly even if we claim to be Christians, failure to follow the law of the Christ, the commands given to the christian congregation and guiding principles found in the Bible, would show that we are not true Christians. Though we are saved by faith alone, that faith needs to be a living faith that is the controlling factor in our discission making.
I know many people promote "a once saved, always saved" doctrine that once you have accepted Jesus as your personnel savior, you are guaranteed eternal salvation regardless of any future actions. But that doctrine is in complete conflict with scripture. Notice what Jesus himself said on the subject. (Matthew 24:10-13) "Then, also, many will be stumbled and will betray one another and will hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and mislead many; and because of the increasing of lawlessness the love of the greater number will cool off. But he that has endured to the end is the one that will be saved." So if one failed to remain faithful and zealous, you would not be saved. Paul warned the Corinthian congregation who of course were baptized spirit anointed Christians who had accepted Christ as their personal savior. (1 Corinthians 9:27-10:13) "but I pummel my body and lead it as a slave, that, after I have preached to others, I myself should not become disapproved somehow. . . . Nevertheless, on most of them God did not express his approval, for they were laid low in the wilderness. Now these things became our examples, for us not to be persons desiring injurious things, even as they desired them. Neither become idolaters, as some of them did; just as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink, and they got up to have a good time." Neither let us practice fornication, as some of them committed fornication, only to fall, twenty-three thousand [of them] in one day. Neither let us put Jehovah to the test, as some of them put [him] to the test, only to perish by the serpents. Neither be murmurers, just as some of them murmured, only to perish by the destroyer. Now these things went on befalling them as examples, and they were written for a warning to us upon whom the ends of the systems of things have arrived. Consequently let him that thinks he is standing beware that he does not fall." Notice that Paul had to "pummel" (figuratively of course) his body to refrain from in engaging in sinful conduct that would result in his being disapproved by Christ which would mean the loss of eternal life. We are only always saved if we remain always faithful, James warned on this point also. (James 1:19-27) "Know this, my beloved brothers. Every man must be swift about hearing, slow about speaking, slow about wrath; for man's wrath does not work out God's righteousness. Hence put away all filthiness and that superfluous thing, badness, and accept with mildness the implanting of the word which is able to save YOUR souls. However, become doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves with false reasoning. For if anyone is a hearer of the word, and not a doer, this one is like a man looking at his natural face in a mirror. For he looks at himself, and off he goes and immediately forgets what sort of man he is. But he who peers into the perfect law that belongs to freedom and who persists in [it], this [man], because he has become, not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, will be happy in his doing [it]. If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshiper and yet does not bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man's form of worship is futile. The form of worship that is clean and undefiled from the standpoint of our God and Father is this: to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation, and to keep oneself without spot from the world." See, we must live by the good standards found in the Bible (the law of Christ) and remain without spot from the sinful world, or we will not have Christ's approval.
Far from teaching once saved always saved, Paul warned Christians not to fall into the habit of willfully practicing sin which would have dire consequences. (Hebrews 10:26-31) "For if we practice sin willfully after having received the accurate knowledge of the truth, there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left, but [there is] a certain fearful expectation of judgment and [there is] a fiery jealousy that is going to consume those in opposition. Any man that has disregarded the law of Moses dies without compassion, upon the testimony of two or three. Of how much more severe a punishment, do YOU think, will the man be counted worthy who has trampled upon the Son of God and who has esteemed as of ordinary value the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and who has outraged the spirit of undeserved kindness with contempt? For we know him that said: "Vengeance is mine; I will recompense"; and again: "Jehovah will judge his people." It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of [the] living God." Paul here was not talking about non Christians, he was talking baptized dedicated members of the Christian congregation. Christians who deliberately sin, would be worse off than those who don't accept God or Christ since they can repent, but as Paul stated those who already know the truth would have no sacrifice left since they have trampled on the gift of Christ's sacrifice.
Hope you understand what I have been trying to get across to you, otherwise try asking me specific questions and I will see if I can answer them for you. I will be leaving soon for a trip, so I may not have time to reply until I return.
Wm. Scott Anderson

This message is a reply to:
 Message 134 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 05-28-2004 12:13 AM Cold Foreign Object has not replied

  
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