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Author Topic:   Super Evolution and the Flood
graft2vine
Member (Idle past 4954 days)
Posts: 139
Joined: 07-27-2006


Message 121 of 173 (460240)
03-13-2008 3:14 PM
Reply to: Message 117 by Blue Jay
03-12-2008 9:51 PM


Re: Creeping Things
Hi Bluejay,
if, like you say, "creeping thing" can refer to reptiles, you'd better be damn sure that it does do that. Otherwise, you've got millions of insects to account for on the Ark.
Well, this is what AiG suggests. I am not YEC, but believe the flood was local, so millions of insects are not a concern to me. I am willing to look at it though to see if AiG has a case.
21 Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth;
While "creeping thing" includes both reptiles and insects, in this verse it talks about just "flying creeping things". This can be distinguised from "creeping things that creep upon the earth" as described as going on the ark in Genesis 7.
Gen 7:14 They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort.
"flying creeping thing" can refer to insects that fly (and can also creep of course). Grasshoppers fly (in a sense) as the jump through the air.
"creeping things that creep" then refers to reptiles because they don't fly but creep upon the earth.
So I think there is a plausable case that insects do not have to be on the ark, or at the very least they didn't have to be maintained in cages (Noah would have to leave very little space between the bars). Did they have glass back then?
As for the four legs: It does not say that they only have four legs, but "go upon all fours" when they creep. With the grasshopper, the four front legs are used for just creeping, while the primary purpose of their hind legs is leaping.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 117 by Blue Jay, posted 03-12-2008 9:51 PM Blue Jay has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 137 by Blue Jay, posted 03-14-2008 12:54 AM graft2vine has replied

  
FliesOnly
Member (Idle past 4144 days)
Posts: 797
From: Michigan
Joined: 12-01-2003


Message 122 of 173 (460242)
03-13-2008 3:34 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ICANT
03-12-2008 11:45 PM


Re: Creeping Things
ICANT writes:
...and I assume they brought their own supplies...
This is a first for me. I have never seen anyone (until now...thank you very much) actually claim that the elephants brought their years supply of food with them. Priceless...simply priceless. I now have this wonderful visual image of the happy aardvark couple approaching the ark, carrying their little green plastic ant farm along with them (you all know the one...it has the silhouette of the farm inside..very cute), obviously thinking it was more of only a "Three hour tour" they were embarking upon.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 03-12-2008 11:45 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 123 by Taz, posted 03-13-2008 3:41 PM FliesOnly has not replied
 Message 129 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2008 9:02 PM FliesOnly has replied

  
Taz
Member (Idle past 3291 days)
Posts: 5069
From: Zerus
Joined: 07-18-2006


Message 123 of 173 (460244)
03-13-2008 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by FliesOnly
03-13-2008 3:34 PM


Re: Creeping Things
FliesOnly writes:
elephants brought their years supply of food with them.
Last year, my friend and I decided to climb up to the continental divide in Colorado Rockies by ourselves. Unlike most people who drive up near that point and then leave their car, we started out at the bottom of the Rockies. It took us a week to get up there and another week to get down. We had to carry all our supplies and whatnot for 2 weeks on our backs. Trust me. Just 2 weeks worth of food for 2 people (and we dehydrated everything) is a full load to carry, let alone a whole year's supply. Even then, we didn't have enough food with us. We ended up having to fish for some of our meals.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by FliesOnly, posted 03-13-2008 3:34 PM FliesOnly has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 124 of 173 (460248)
03-13-2008 4:30 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by ICANT
03-12-2008 11:45 PM


Re: Creeping Things
I assume they brought their own supplies
So all the carnivores brought along their own prey to eat? Did the lions, for example, herd in some extra zebras?
Edited by DrJones*, : No reason given.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 120 by ICANT, posted 03-12-2008 11:45 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 125 by obvious Child, posted 03-13-2008 4:36 PM DrJones* has not replied
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2008 9:05 PM DrJones* has replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 125 of 173 (460249)
03-13-2008 4:36 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by DrJones*
03-13-2008 4:30 PM


Re: Creeping Things
Yeah. That's why there aren't any unicorns, griffins, Pegasuses, etc. The lions threw them out to make space for their Zebra herd.
Amazing the mental acrobatics that creationists go through to defend their fairy tale.
And they call Atheists delusional....

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by DrJones*, posted 03-13-2008 4:30 PM DrJones* has not replied

  
SAMBEE
Junior Member (Idle past 5857 days)
Posts: 18
From: Alabama
Joined: 11-19-2007


Message 126 of 173 (460251)
03-13-2008 5:03 PM


SUPER EVOLUTION AND THE FLOOD
Shalom,all before the flood Noah was told by Yahweh how the ark is to be built,{Genesis 6:14,15,and 16}we see that the ark has three parts lower,middle,and upper decks.This pattern is found in all creation the atoms,man himslef,plants,and animals.The tabernacle built by Moses had three parts court round about,holy place,most holy place.These are just a few exsamples my point is this seeing that the ark had three parts lower deck was for insects and reptiles middle deck was for animals upper deck Noah and his family.
Sambee...

Replies to this message:
 Message 127 by Phalanx, posted 03-13-2008 8:39 PM SAMBEE has replied
 Message 128 by obvious Child, posted 03-13-2008 8:50 PM SAMBEE has not replied

  
Phalanx
Member (Idle past 5712 days)
Posts: 31
From: Old Bridge, NJ, US
Joined: 10-12-2006


Message 127 of 173 (460278)
03-13-2008 8:39 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by SAMBEE
03-13-2008 5:03 PM


Re: SUPER EVOLUTION AND THE FLOOD
Just wondering here...but, what on Earth are you talking about?
Sambee writes:
This pattern is found in all creation the atoms,man himslef,plants,and animals.
How are atoms 3 parts? In what way is man 3 parts? And just to be thorough, how are plants and animals comprised of 3 parts?
And just a quick question, but what on Earth does that have to do with anything that is on this thread?

And the Ignorant shall fall to the Squirrels - Chip 2:54

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by SAMBEE, posted 03-13-2008 5:03 PM SAMBEE has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 152 by SAMBEE, posted 03-14-2008 5:46 PM Phalanx has not replied

  
obvious Child
Member (Idle past 4115 days)
Posts: 661
Joined: 08-17-2006


Message 128 of 173 (460281)
03-13-2008 8:50 PM
Reply to: Message 126 by SAMBEE
03-13-2008 5:03 PM


Re: SUPER EVOLUTION AND THE FLOOD
Care to explain to me how Noah managed to take care of thousands of species and what they ate after the waters receded?
Or are you going to run away as your history suggests?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 126 by SAMBEE, posted 03-13-2008 5:03 PM SAMBEE has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2008 9:24 PM obvious Child has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 129 of 173 (460283)
03-13-2008 9:02 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by FliesOnly
03-13-2008 3:34 PM


Re: Creeping Things
Hi FilesOnly,
FilesOnly writes:
This is a first for me.
I doubt very seriously if this is the first time you have part quoted something and I doubt very seriously if it will be the last.
But it is easier to make fun of this way isn't it?
The entire quote is below if you would care to comment on it.
Since God supplied the animals He controlled their size and I assume they brought their own supplies, or God supplied them as Noah was not instructed to obtain them.
Since Noah was not instructed obtain food for the animals.
The animals had to bring their own.
Or:
God had to provide it.
He did supply food and water and everything else the children of Israel needed in the desert for 40 years.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by FliesOnly, posted 03-13-2008 3:34 PM FliesOnly has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by FliesOnly, posted 03-14-2008 8:04 AM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 130 of 173 (460285)
03-13-2008 9:05 PM
Reply to: Message 124 by DrJones*
03-13-2008 4:30 PM


Re: Creeping Things
Hi DrJones,
DrJones writes:
So all the carnivores brought along their own prey to eat? Did the lions, for example, herd in some extra zebras?
Or they could have eat what God provided for them as Noah provided nothing.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 124 by DrJones*, posted 03-13-2008 4:30 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 131 by DrJones*, posted 03-13-2008 9:07 PM ICANT has replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 131 of 173 (460287)
03-13-2008 9:07 PM
Reply to: Message 130 by ICANT
03-13-2008 9:05 PM


Re: Creeping Things
Or they could have eat what God provided for them as Noah provided nothing.
And what did god provide for them?

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 130 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2008 9:05 PM ICANT has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2008 9:25 PM DrJones* has replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 132 of 173 (460290)
03-13-2008 9:24 PM
Reply to: Message 128 by obvious Child
03-13-2008 8:50 PM


Re: SUPER EVOLUTION AND THE FLOOD
Hi oC,
obvious Child writes:
Care to explain to me how Noah managed to take care of thousands of species and what they ate after the waters receded?
Why is everyone so obsessed with how Noah and his family took care of all these animals?
Is there anywhere in the Bible that says they had to take care of them?
The creator of the universe told Noah to build an ark. He told him how big to build it. He was not instructed to build water tanks nor was he told to build storage bins for food. He was not told to make preparations for sanitation.
Noah was told to build the ark. He complied and God took care of everything else.
When the animals disembarked from the ark the same God that had taken care of them for the past year was still in control and took care of their needs.
I know a lot of people have problems with the ark story, and the miracles. But understand if you can believe Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth." Anything else in the Bible is child's play.
The same thing is true with, "In the beginning a hot little something that no one knows anything about expanded into the universe we see today." If you can believe that you have no problem swallowing the rest of the story.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 128 by obvious Child, posted 03-13-2008 8:50 PM obvious Child has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 135 by Otto Tellick, posted 03-14-2008 12:12 AM ICANT has not replied
 Message 142 by graft2vine, posted 03-14-2008 1:40 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 143 by FliesOnly, posted 03-14-2008 2:11 PM ICANT has replied
 Message 159 by obvious Child, posted 03-14-2008 10:29 PM ICANT has not replied

  
ICANT
Member
Posts: 6769
From: SSC
Joined: 03-12-2007
Member Rating: 1.5


Message 133 of 173 (460292)
03-13-2008 9:25 PM
Reply to: Message 131 by DrJones*
03-13-2008 9:07 PM


Re: Creeping Things
Hi Dr,
DrJones writes:
And what did god provide for them?
Ask Him when you meet Him. I am not going to second guess Him.
God Bless,

"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 131 by DrJones*, posted 03-13-2008 9:07 PM DrJones* has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 134 by DrJones*, posted 03-13-2008 9:31 PM ICANT has not replied
 Message 136 by bluegenes, posted 03-14-2008 12:36 AM ICANT has not replied

  
DrJones*
Member
Posts: 2284
From: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada
Joined: 08-19-2004
Member Rating: 6.8


Message 134 of 173 (460293)
03-13-2008 9:31 PM
Reply to: Message 133 by ICANT
03-13-2008 9:25 PM


Re: Creeping Things
I am not going to second guess Him.
No but you will add stuff to the scriptures.

soon I discovered that this rock thing was true
Jerry Lee Lewis was the devil
Jesus was an architect previous to his career as a prophet
All of a sudden i found myself in love with the world
And so there was only one thing I could do
Was ding a ding dang my dang along ling long - Jesus Built my Hotrod Ministry

Live every week like it's Shark Week! - Tracey Jordan
Just a monkey in a long line of kings. - Matthew Good
If "elitist" just means "not the dumbest motherfucker in the room", I'll be an elitist! - Get Your War On
*not an actual doctor

This message is a reply to:
 Message 133 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2008 9:25 PM ICANT has not replied

  
Otto Tellick
Member (Idle past 2330 days)
Posts: 288
From: PA, USA
Joined: 02-17-2008


Message 135 of 173 (460307)
03-14-2008 12:12 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by ICANT
03-13-2008 9:24 PM


Re: SUPER EVOLUTION AND THE FLOOD
ICANT writes:
Why is everyone so obsessed with how Noah and his family took care of all these animals?
Is there anywhere in the Bible that says they had to take care of them?
...
Noah was told to build the ark. He complied and God took care of everything else.
Good point. Assuming that the person who first put this story on paper was, in some sense, taking dictation from God, and all these details were left out, they must therefore be completely irrelevant to the account -- at least, in God's estimation. OTOH, we might speculate whether the original writer was exercising some independent judgment on how to express the account, and decided on his own whether certain details were relevant, based on his assessment of who the readers would be. Either way, the time and resources required for writing things down were presumably quite significant at the time, so there would have been some motivation to skip unnecessary details.
That same propensity to skip over details is also a characteristic of fables and parables, and the question becomes: what is it, exactly, that makes it necessary for the story of Noah to be taken as a factual, historical account, rather than a parable or fable?
The reason seems to be that you need to have a God who can willfully (and seemingly on a whim) do things that violate the natural laws that He Himself has presumably created. He does this, apparently, because of the personal relationship that exists between Him and the humans He created (or because of the relationship that doesn't exist, because these silly humans are so obtuse). Why you need this, I can't fathom.
But okay, fine. Anything is possible, given that it hasn't been explicitly and literally set down in the account as part of the "official record" of events. Any attempt to consider the physical ramifications of the details that are provided is misguided and pointless, because such an attempt would normally try to apply the physical laws that we have observed to operate consistently for as long as we have been paying attention to physical laws. Even though this consistency applies equally in all cultures, not just the Judeo-Christian community, God can circumvent these laws as he pleases, so we simply have to conclude that our natural history is a patchwork quilt of events consistent with physical laws as we know them, and events that violate those laws because of God's whim.
The funny thing, though, is that the latter type of events is quite limited -- it consists only of this particular set of accounts found in the Bible -- whereas the former type of events (those that obey physical laws) continue to accumulate day after day, We are even able, through careful experimentation and study involving things like core samples from polar ice caps, ocean floors and geological formations, to build up an increasingly clear, detailed and cross-correlated picture of events that occurred long before our own lifetimes, and these are also all consistent with physical laws as we know them.
Until we start observing more cases of miraculous intervention by God, clearly demonstrating His willingness and ability to violate physical laws, the events of this type that are conveyed with such meager detail in the Bible will continue to dwindle to a smaller and smaller minority.
Actually, of course, as so many people in this forum have expressed repeatedly, our "law-abiding" observations have already reached the point where they impose a heavier and more complicated burden on any notion of God's "law-breaking" behavior: e.g. in order for the story of the flood to be "true" in any literal sense, we must either expect to see a clear record of it in ice-cap core samples and continental sedimentations, or else we must conclude that these details, so obviously extraneous to the story, were all manipulated by God to conceal any positive evidence that the event ever happened.
I suppose there is another alternative: the story of the flood could reflect a sort of group hallucination, affecting a whole population whose descendants included the people who wrote down the OT books. In this case, all God needed to do was to implant this shared vision in all their brains. Not only is this much simpler in physical terms, but it is also "well attested" -- it's the sort of thing He does all the time anyway, and is presumably still doing. People call it "revelation", though in the case of making the flood story "real", the process would have presumably been more subtle, because people would have had to accept it as personal tactile experience, rather than as a direct input from God. But what the heck -- anything is possible, given that the details have not been provided in the "official record."
I guess that might also explain why so many groups elsewhere in the world do not share a belief in that particular series of events...

autotelic adj. (of an entity or event) having within itself the purpose of its existence or happening.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ICANT, posted 03-13-2008 9:24 PM ICANT has not replied

  
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