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Author Topic:   WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDAMENTALISM
Conspiracy2Riot
Junior Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 4
From: Oregon
Joined: 11-17-2008


Message 196 of 222 (488793)
11-17-2008 5:05 PM


I couldn't agree more with your outline
Just awesome case there, Willowtree.
You laid out the case against Legalism (both overt and subtle) superbly.
As I read thru this thread I see you are quite competent at holding your own, but I did wish to pop in and offer a hearty 'THANK YOU' for bringing up this topic.

Replies to this message:
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Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 197 of 222 (488794)
11-17-2008 5:08 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Conspiracy2Riot
11-17-2008 5:05 PM


Re: I couldn't agree more with your outline
Funny that you should use thread necromancy and call Ray Willowtree.
ABE: Welcome to EvC.
Edited by Larni, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Conspiracy2Riot, posted 11-17-2008 5:05 PM Conspiracy2Riot has not replied

  
Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 198 of 222 (488795)
11-17-2008 5:14 PM
Reply to: Message 196 by Conspiracy2Riot
11-17-2008 5:05 PM


Re: I couldn't agree more with your outline
Just awesome case there, Willowtree.
You laid out the case against Legalism (both overt and subtle) superbly.
As I read thru this thread I see you are quite competent at holding your own, but I did wish to pop in and offer a hearty 'THANK YOU' for bringing up this topic.
Why thank you very much.
My Forum name has changed. I was Willowtree, now I go by Cold Foreign Object.
Ray
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 196 by Conspiracy2Riot, posted 11-17-2008 5:05 PM Conspiracy2Riot has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 199 by Conspiracy2Riot, posted 11-17-2008 7:04 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

  
Conspiracy2Riot
Junior Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 4
From: Oregon
Joined: 11-17-2008


Message 199 of 222 (488801)
11-17-2008 7:04 PM
Reply to: Message 198 by Cold Foreign Object
11-17-2008 5:14 PM


Re: I couldn't agree more with your outline
Very well then, CFR.
Pleased to meet you.
I only discovered this site today and I'm enjoying reading the more progressive running threads.
I have fundamentalists in my spouses family and their list of daily do's and donts are positively mind boggling. Worse yet, when I moved into their community I learned I was expected to attend their Church. I had not yet at that point actually read much of my Bible as I was a newbie Christian and trying to take it slowly to absorb as much as possible.
I learned I was terribly under prepared for all they told me I needed to learn at this particular Church, the United Church of God (an offshoot of the old Worldwide Church of God founded by Herbert Armstrong). And they seemed to NOT want you to be reading your bible and interpreting for yourself (dont read the study guide unless we've supplied it type thing). They are the Church of pamphlets and they hand them out like hot cakes in an effort to answer every question, lest there be soul seeking that leads one 'astray'. This is the Church that cranks out that monthly magazine 'The Good News'.
They are an odd mix of Seventh Day Adventism, Mormonism, Judaism and Christianity.
They worship the Sabbath, celebrate the feasts, refrain from pagan holidays (xmas and easter) steer clear of unclean foods, don't believe in hell but do believe the first fruits will have their own universes to rule and that if you blow your shot at salvation here you get a 2nd and 3rd shot later, maybe while your being judged by Jesus. Not sure.
Anyhow, they tithe like their paying an electric bill, they're super exclusionary and the bottom line is I saw I'd just married into a cult.
Everything awesome I'd been learning about Christ started to feel very strange, so I hunkered down and began to read and research what the Bible had to say on all this.
Galatians is truly my favorite book in the new Testament. It made so much so clear. As I continued to work my way thru I began to realize just how these people reduced Christ to nothing but the doorman for God the Father. That didn't sit very well with me.
And it made a great deal of what I'd experienced in terms of fellowship with folks in other Churches suspect as I began to see the legalism in fundamentalism. These folks put God in a box and that's their reality.
There is no spiritual growth for them in their walk with Christ.
I finally wrote a paper on it and gave it to my mother in law. She claims I made her doubt her faith....which was kind of funny since I doubt her 'faith'.
I used this example to illustrate what her path to Christ looked like to me:
If someone wanted me to cross a parking lot and gave me a map and it had a precise spot for me to place each foot as I crossed that parking lot, what do you think I would learn on that journey? What would I see? What would I experience. How would it make me a better person?
If I am so focused on all the details of that map, WHAT precisely is the lesson?
She didn't seem to follow this and took it to mean I wish to be disobedient.
The funny thing is that she has placed that yolk around her neck and yet she doesn't follow ALL the laws. Just the ones her Church tells her to.
So your summary advancing Fundamentalism as an affront to what God intended for us with that new and better covenant really resonated with me and I feel like I landed here for a reason.
Peace,
C2R

This message is a reply to:
 Message 198 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 11-17-2008 5:14 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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Conspiracy2Riot
Junior Member (Idle past 5610 days)
Posts: 4
From: Oregon
Joined: 11-17-2008


Message 200 of 222 (488802)
11-17-2008 7:08 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Conspiracy2Riot
11-17-2008 7:04 PM


Re: I couldn't agree more with your outline
Whoops...meant CFO...Not CFR....been doin a little reading on the Council on Foreign Relations today too....sorry bout that.

This message is a reply to:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 201 of 222 (488815)
11-17-2008 11:22 PM
Reply to: Message 199 by Conspiracy2Riot
11-17-2008 7:04 PM


Re: I couldn't agree more with your outline
Galatians is truly my favorite book in the new Testament. It made so much so clear. As I continued to work my way thru I began to realize just how these people reduced Christ to nothing but the doorman for God the Father. That didn't sit very well with me.
I just finished reading your poignant message. I am glad that you understand.
Fundamentalists believe the pursuit of keeping the law is how one walks with Christ after being born again. The message of the Book of Galatians is that we begin, continue and end our walk the exact same way we started. Paul wrote Galatians to counter the corrupt message of James the epistle writer.
Fundamentalists, without fail, point to the lists of sins in the various epistles and say we must conform to these "fundamentals." The issue IS NOT if BUT HOW. Refer back to the message of the Book of Galatians. If we continue in faith (how we began with Christ) then His spirit will free us from the desire to do those sins. Fundamentalists do not understand this.
Everything I know about the Bible I learned from Dr. Gene Scott and his wife Pastor Melissa Scott. Pastor Scott has pointed out that the lists of sins, or laws, or commandments, in the epistles, Paul recounted because the converted heathen that he was addressing had no knowledge of the Old Testament, and they needed to know what they were being delivered from!
Fundamentalists do not understand the difference between the Old and New Covenants. Their theology simply grafts Christ onto Moses law or their interpretation of Mosaic law (God's doorman as you put it). The Christian walk is not with an impersonal code of conduct, but with a living Saviour, and this walk is by faith. Whatever faith is it is not the works of the law.
There is no spiritual growth for them in their walk with Christ.
Yes, because they are pursuing a dead code of conduct as the way to walk with Christ. I can see that you see the light!
So your summary advancing Fundamentalism as an affront to what God intended for us with that new and better covenant really resonated with me and I feel like I landed here for a reason.
I am very happy----thanks!
Everything I know about the Bible I learned from Dr. and Pastor Scott.
Pastor Melissa Scott presents Dr. Gene Scott - The Official Site
The Official Site of Pastor Melissa Scott, Ph.D. Study proofs of the Resurrection, the Apostle Paul, what Faith really means and more...
Ray
Edited by Cold Foreign Object, : add text

This message is a reply to:
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AdminNosy
Administrator
Posts: 4754
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Joined: 11-11-2003


Message 202 of 222 (488830)
11-18-2008 9:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object
06-08-2004 7:50 PM


Ray's Original OP
Below is Ray's Original OP
This restores the integrity of the Thread.
Message 1 of 195
06-08-2004 07:50 PM IP Logged
In previous topics I have generically defined "fundementalism" to be the bad element in any given good.
Now I will show from the Bible that my definition is correct, but, actually quite soft compared to what God thinks of fundementalism.
Obviously, the word itself - "fundementalism" does not appear in the Bible. This means the established religious community of OUR day - the fundementalists, must be identified via interpretation.
Fundementalism was a BRANCH of Protestantism, but now it IS Protestantism, as they, the fundemantalists, have completely taken over Protestant Christianity.
Protestantism was founded by the reformers on the basis that Protestants PROTEST (as Jesus put it) "the traditions that make void the word of God." Reformation Protestantism PROTESTED the traditions of the Roman Catholic Church that voided out the Constituition of christianity - the written word of God/Bible.
But now the Fundementalists are the established religious community and they have long ago ceased protesting church traditions that make void the word of God. They are the staus quo, the 'old wine' and 'leaven' of the N.T.
Protestant christianity, from its inception, believes the canonized 66 books that make up the english Bible IS THE ETERNAL WORD OF GOD.
Protestants believe that when the last Apostle died God ceased speaking. Unlike the Catholics, who believe God continues to speak through the Pope and when the Church meets in council, Protestants say God finished speaking when the Canon was settled. This means the written source speaks for God and it is the recognized authority/revelation by which God speaks.
When Judas the Betrayer hung himself this left an opening in the ranks of the apostles. In Acts chapter 1, Peter decided to cast lots to see who would replace Judas. They picked a person who history completely ignores. God, in Acts chapter 9 picked Saul of Tarsus who quickly became Paul the Apostle.
It is a fact that God used Paul to write two thirds of the N.T.
This means that Paul and his message is the God approved message. This means that IF scripture contradicts then whatever Paul says should overrule.
Paul, in Galatians 1:11,12 plainly declares that the gospel he preaches came from Jesus Himself and not from any man:
But I make known to you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.
Paul founded the church at Galatia, and the letter he wrote to the Galatians was a RESPONSE to the corruption of his Christ ordained message/gospel by the established church at Jerusalem.
The church at Jerusalem was pastored by James the epistle writer, the so called relative of Jesus. This church at Jerusalem was made up of Jewish converts. The only thing that needs to be seen is the fact that the church at Jerusalem, led by James, is the ESTABLISHED RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY/CHURCH of Paul's day.
Remember Jesus said "by your traditions you make void the word of God". Jesus directed that statement to the established religious community of His day - the Pharisees.
Acts 15:1
And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."
"From Judea" means from the church at Jerusalem and this command came from James, that new converts MUST be circumcised or they cannot be saved. Here we have the established religious communtiy, under the color of speaking for God DECLARING that you cannot be saved unless you get your penis cut !
Where did Jesus or Paul say that circumcision was necessary ?
They didn't.
The point is that the established religious community said an external conformity to Mosaic Law was necessary or you could not be saved.
Circumcision REPRESENTS any external adherence to Mosaic Law that the church requires as necessary to be saved. Can anybody tell me how many laws the established religious community of our day - the Fundementalists require christians to conform to or they aint saved ?
Every fundementalist denomination has their own set of "circumcision" rules that they say PROVES you are a christian. In Paul's day the church was hot for circumcision or you weren't a truly saved christian, circumcision is not an issue today, but every fundie denomination has their own Mosaic list that they say, the adherence to, proves your conversion.
In the topic "What is a True Christian", here is a perfect example of a fundie list of what a true christian is:
http://EvC Forum: What is a True Christian? -->EvC Forum: What is a True Christian?
This list includes: Inerrancy, attending the Jehovahs Witness church, not participating in war, and even a link to a site that allegedly lists "what God requires of us".
Reinhold Niebuhr said this about the Jehovah's Witnesses:
"They know their Bible...........................verses"
What an insult !
Anyway, what is missing from the link: The Gospel!
Not one word of gospel in it. I replied to the link and pointed that out but debater made a bunch of excuses. The point is that the Gospel wasn't in their heart, it wasn't in their list of things necessary to get saved.
Whats the gospel ? (please hold on - this post will end in a bang)
In the original greek the word is "euangelion" and it means "good news".
Prefix "eu"/good; "angel"(s) are messengers from God, thus euangelion/gospel literally means "good message from God".
Whats the good message from God ?
"get your penis cut ?"
"obey Moses law ?"
The good news/message from God is that He will accept FAITH (whatever that is) in place of the O.T. way of relating to Him via Mosaic Law. And faith, by defintion, has nothing to do with Mosaic Law. (Romans 3:20,21)
All evangelical Protestantism agrees that an act of faith directed at Christ gets you saved. The dispute with the established church begins right here. After conversion, the church at Jerusalem/established religious community/Fundementalists insist that keeping Law maintains your salvation. This is pure heresy.
My entire message is lost if you fail to realize that Fundementalism represents the established religious community/church which is perfectly typified in scripture with the church at Jerusalem. Their voiding of God's word comes when they require surface conformity to Moses Law, which has nothing to do with the new way to always relate to God: the way of faith - the gospel.
When the gospel is practiced God promises to dwell inside of the believer and change them miraculously all because of faith in Him.
Now the church at Jerusalem sent infiltrators to the church at Galatia. These "Judaizers" as they are called totally corrupted the gentile converts at Galatia. Their message from James was that you must be circumcised or you aint saved.
Paul responds in Galatians 1:7-9
I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to PERVERT the gospel of Christ. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
Paul labels those who corrupt the gospel to be "PERVERTS". In the original greek the word translated specifically means "to place that which is behind - in front"
Jesus was the Law Incarnate and God crucified Him. The law is past and it is abrogate, but the church at Jerusalem/Fundementalists place it back in front thus perverting the gospel. Then Paul says that if he or an angel from heaven preaches any other "gospel" let them be accursed or more literally "God damned".
Paul the Apostle, who speaks for God, says that anyone who puts the law back in front of the way of faith/gospel is GOD DAMNED/accursed.
Fundementalists are always elevatng their version of the Law back in front and negating the gospel/way of faith. The Fundie message is if you really got saved then you will conform to Moses law. The truth is that God will propel the convert by changing him via His Spirit IF they continue how they started in their walk with Christ.
Paul echoes this sentiment perfectly here:
Galatians 3:1,2
O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth....This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
This means what it says. That the vehicle of change, the vehicle that saves is the Spirit and that Spirit is received by faith and operates by faith and not by conforming to the works of the law.
Fundementalism is that bewitching entity that perverts the gospel by misrepresenting the way a person walks with God. The reputation of fundementalism is to "circumcise"/cut on christians to make them into their image of Moses law. Some fundie churches say long hair is a sin; wearing make-up; dancing; smoking; going to movies; drinking any alcoholic beverage; certain clothes; just an endless list of do' and dont's.
Paul says in Galatians 5:2 If you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing
This means IF you do any work or law with the intent of gaining or maintaining standing with God - Christ will profit you nothing, and the next verse says you are now obligated to keep the whole law
The only activity going on in fundementalist churches is their version of circumcision/Moses law. This is the perversion of the gospel/way of faith condemned in Galatians 1.
The gospel is that you can start, continue, and finish by faith. This becomes perverted when the church at Jerusalem/Fundementalism resurrects the Law and demands compliance with whatever silly pet law that they exalt back in front of the gospel.
WHAT DOES GOD THINK OF FUNDEMENTALISTS ?
Paul tells us in Galatians chapter 4
This is Paul's master argument:
Abraham had two sons.
One by a bondwoman (Hagar/Ishmael) the other by a freewoman (Sarah/Isaac)
Verses 24, 25 says this is SYMBOLIC of two covenants: (Old and New)
Mt. Sinai/Moses law/O.T which is Hagar/Ishmael and bondage to that O.T. law, which CORRESPONDS to Jerusalem "which now is"/Fundementalism
Then verse 26 says Jerusalem "above" is free and likens that freedom to be children of promise, as Isaac was, a product of miracle according to the promise of God.
Paul is equating Isaac with the promise of miracle deliverance from the demands of Mt. Sinai law, because Isaac was a miracle birth by promise of God to Abraham.
Mt.Sinai/Law/Hagar/Jerusalem now/Fundementalism
vs.
Jerusalem Above/Isaac/miracle promise/gospel.
Galatians 4:30
Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? "Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman."
Paul is quoting Genesis 21:10.
Ishmael persecuted Isaac says Genesis. Paul, speaking for God, interprets this to mean that the circumcision crowd of Jerusalem/Fundementalists do the exact same thing to the true christians who walk exclusively by faith/the gospel.
God told Abraham to cast out the bondwoman and her son that Ishmael shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman/Isaac.
Paul quotes Genesis 21:10 and applies it to the church at Jerusalem/Fundementalists and says "CAST OUT THE BONDWOMAN AND HER SON"
Dr. Scott says it in plain english:
"Throw the mother fuckers out"
Thats what God thinks of fundementalists.
Do not try to save them. Do not love them - throw them out !
This is why Dr. Scott says EVERYONE is welcome in his church except "God damn fundementalists"
Edit: Message 12 in this topic is now officially added to this OP. Here is the content that I feel is pertinent to know:
Concerning whether the Bible is the word of God or not:
This is the claim of the Canon (OP) and we Protestants (Fundie and non fundie) bow to this claim.
This topic is not about the claim of the Bible whether it is God's word or not. I dedicated much of the OP in establishing this fact but only to show non Protestants that we (fundie and non fundie Protestants) BOTH accept the Bible to be the word of God so I can proceed to demonstrate to everyone FROM their own source how it condemns them.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1 by Cold Foreign Object, posted 06-08-2004 7:50 PM Cold Foreign Object has replied

Replies to this message:
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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 203 of 222 (488848)
11-18-2008 2:28 PM
Reply to: Message 202 by AdminNosy
11-18-2008 9:29 AM


Re: Ray's Original OP
Since I erased the original OP due to many spelling and grammatical errors that is not the original OP.
Ray

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Cold Foreign Object 
Suspended Member (Idle past 3048 days)
Posts: 3417
Joined: 11-21-2003


Message 204 of 222 (488849)
11-18-2008 2:32 PM
Reply to: Message 203 by Cold Foreign Object
11-18-2008 2:28 PM


Re: Ray's Original OP
Since I erased the original OP due to many spelling and grammatical errors that is not the original OP.
http://EvC Forum: WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDAMENTALISM -->EvC Forum: WHAT GOD THINKS OF FUNDAMENTALISM
Ray

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Replies to this message:
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kuresu
Member (Idle past 2513 days)
Posts: 2544
From: boulder, colorado
Joined: 03-24-2006


Message 205 of 222 (488862)
11-18-2008 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 204 by Cold Foreign Object
11-18-2008 2:32 PM


Re: Ray's Original OP
that's a funny trick of logic you have there. "My original statement is not the original statement, as I deleted the original, so now the original statement is XYZ instead."
What!? No wonder you can't argue a straight line.
You know, you're other option would be to simply fix the spelling and grammar errors and repost it.
What's really funny is that you always gripe about censorship, and how stalin et al agree that it works. You claim the evos censor. And what happened? You pulled your own argument down, only to have an evo put it back up! You censored youself! Did you know that this makes you a communistic, fascist dictator whose god is Darwin? Too funny.

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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 206 of 222 (502114)
03-09-2009 6:01 PM
Reply to: Message 5 by jar
06-10-2004 5:32 PM


Re: Beg to differ!
Protestantism and fundamentalism are incompatible. Protestantism holds to the belief that mankind is justified by faith in the finished work of Christ, regardless of any other belief or lack of belief that is not contingent upon that faith. Fundamentalism in effect says that justification is by literal belief in early Genesis, which, to any genuine Protestant, is justification by works, and therefore pagan.
It may be that many atheists give support, unwitting or otherwise, to fundamentalism just by taking it seriously. This may be implied support of justification by works (the Protestant objection to Roman Catholicism), it may be tacit support of the view that science disproves Christianity.

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 Message 5 by jar, posted 06-10-2004 5:32 PM jar has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 207 by Larni, posted 03-09-2009 6:08 PM ochaye has replied
 Message 208 by shalamabobbi, posted 03-09-2009 6:24 PM ochaye has replied

  
Larni
Member (Idle past 164 days)
Posts: 4000
From: Liverpool
Joined: 09-16-2005


Message 207 of 222 (502115)
03-09-2009 6:08 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by ochaye
03-09-2009 6:01 PM


Re: Beg to differ!
Hi ochave, welcome to EvC!
I'm sorry to tell you jar has left this forum so he won't be able to reply to you.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by ochaye, posted 03-09-2009 6:01 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
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shalamabobbi
Member (Idle past 2849 days)
Posts: 397
Joined: 01-10-2009


Message 208 of 222 (502118)
03-09-2009 6:24 PM
Reply to: Message 206 by ochaye
03-09-2009 6:01 PM


Re: Beg to differ!
Oh good, this is the free for all..
So I think the right to bare arms should include personal nukes..
Protestantism and fundamentalism are incompatible.
I wish you'd communicate that to the protestants then.
It may be that many atheists give support, unwitting or otherwise, to fundamentalism just by taking it seriously.
I think it is taken seriously in the sense that most want to fight it being taught alongside evolution in the classroom, not any further.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 206 by ochaye, posted 03-09-2009 6:01 PM ochaye has replied

Replies to this message:
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ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 209 of 222 (502122)
03-09-2009 6:43 PM
Reply to: Message 207 by Larni
03-09-2009 6:08 PM


Re: Beg to differ!
quote:
Hi ochave, welcome to EvC!
Thanks! (It's 'ochaye', btw.)
quote:
I'm sorry to tell you jar has left this forum so he won't be able to reply to you.
Never mind, I'm sure there are many others who can do so.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 207 by Larni, posted 03-09-2009 6:08 PM Larni has not replied

  
ochaye
Member (Idle past 5239 days)
Posts: 307
Joined: 03-08-2009


Message 210 of 222 (502123)
03-09-2009 6:47 PM
Reply to: Message 208 by shalamabobbi
03-09-2009 6:24 PM


Re: Beg to differ!
quote:
I wish you'd communicate that to the protestants then.
Real Protestants know it already. And fundies know it, but they cannot admit it.
quote:
I think it is taken seriously in the sense that most want to fight it being taught alongside evolution in the classroom, not any further.
Oh, I think it goes well beyond that. In another forum there are plenty of people saying that religion has been disproved by science. Of course theistic scientists are of the same mind on the educational aspects.
Edited by ochaye, : Added evidence.

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