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| Author | Topic: Bible prophecy - Nothing compares | |||||||||||||||||||||||
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
Nebuchadnezzar DIDN'T destroy the city. The "island colony" IS the city. Alexander isn't mentioned in the prophecy. So the prophecy failed. Paul, you need to do your homework on this prophecy. Prophecies like physics aren't usually simple. Concerning this prophecy: 1. More than one nation will be involved. (26:3).2. The walls and towers will come down. (26:4). 3. The invaders will remove the debris of the city. (unusual) (26:4). 4. Nebuchadnezzar will be a very significant one of the attackers. (26:7). 5. Stones and timbers go in the water. (26:12). 6. Finally bear rock for the fiserman to spread nets. (26:14). 7. No more Tyre at that site ever. (26:14). PROPHECY FULFILLED!! 
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
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Asgara Member (Idle past 2332 days)  Posts: 1783 From: Wisconsin, USA Joined: |
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
For thus says the Lord God, "When I shall make you a desolate city, like the cities which are not inhabited, when I shall bring up the deep over you, and the great waters will cover you, Ezekiel 26:19 This verse, imo, lends a great deal of credibility to this prophecy. What city in ancient days would be covered with water after it's invasion and destruction? It's just not what happens. It was a great feat for Alexanders men to accomplish this by moving all that debris into the sea without machinery to do the job, a great feat, indeed. The prophet was right on here, with amazing precision.
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
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Buzsaw Inactive Member |
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PaulK Member Posts: 17828 Joined: Member Rating: 2.5 |
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nator Member (Idle past 2199 days)  Posts: 12961 From: Ann Arbor Joined: |
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Amlodhi Inactive Member |
Hello buzsaw,
Sorry it took so long to respond but, as I mentioned, I was under other time constraints and I wanted to be able to take an indepth look at this Ezekiel/Tyre passage (Ez. chapter 26). From your previous posts, it appears that your confidence in this passage is based on 4 basic points, to wit: 1) Tyre was a mainland city and the island was only a later colony. 2) Modern Tyre is not built on the same location as Phoenician Tyre. 3) The switch from the 3rd pers. sing. pronoun (he) to the 3rd pers. plur. pronoun (they) between verses 11 & 12, is the dividing line between the role of Nebuchadnezzar and the later role of Alexander in fulfilling this prophecy. 4) The phrases "many nations" and "as the sea causeth his waves to come up", indicates that various nations will fulfill this prophecy over time. Concerning #1:
quote: Tyre likely was originally a colony of Sidon. However, I don't see the relevance of this. The Tyre that Ezekiel said would be destroyed would need to be the Tyre that existed at the time of the prophecy, not merely the location of the first ancient building project. The island part of Tyre was a major portion of the city long before Ezekiel's time. In fact, in the 10th century B.C. Hiram (the king of Tyre at that time), joined the two islets off the coast by landfill making one larger island. Later he extended the island city further by building up considerable areas around the perimeter. The island portion of the city was also the location of the royal palaces and the later religious cathedrals of Ba'lu who was king in Tyre at least 100 yrs. before Ezekiel's prophecy was uttered. Ancient Assyrian texts from the time of Esarhaddon (680 - 669 b.c.) attest to the island city (and the suburban mainland towns) of Tyre.
quote: Subsequent to Esarhaddon, Ashurbanipal (668 - 633) forced Tyre to submit to the Assyrian yoke by cutting off Tyre's supply of fresh water and their communications both on land and at sea. That these Assyrian forces had war ships is made evident from the Prism B text of Esarhaddon:
quote: Even Isaiah says Tyre was an island at the time of Ezekiel's prophecy:
quote: Thus, long before the prophecy of Ezekiel, the island of Tyre was a fortified city (on which also were located it's harbors, one north and one south, the ramparts of which can still be seen today), and on which were located the urban palaces and religious centers of the upper class. As indicated in the Prism B inscription of Esarhaddon, the mainland portion of Tyre consisted of various towns opposite the island on the coast and outside of the imposing ramparts which protected the island city. This ground plan (suburban villages and towns outlying the main fortifications of the urban upper class), was the norm for this era. Concerning #2, Modern Tyre is not built on the same location as Phoenician Tyre: As has been shown above, in the time of Ezekiel's prophecy, Tyre was a fortified island stronghold with various towns strewn along the coast. Some of these towns, though under the auspices of the king of Tyre, were not necessarily part of Tyre proper but were likely those referred to in the bible as the "daughters" of Tyre. Because the water between the mainland and the island was shallow (the Phoenician ships could not navigate close enough to hinder Alexander's mote building), the portion of mainland Tyre directly opposite the island may have even existed on a natural promontory. Some of the recent archaeological research in the area provides some data regarding the boundaries of Phoenician Tyre. Since c. 1991, several articles from the Phoenican era have been unearthed on the island and the mainland area. These finds include various embossed stelae, amulets and cinerary urns with the residue of human bones inside. It soon became evident that the area in question was an ancient cemetery, (and some have even speculated that it is an ancient "tophet" suggesting child sacrifice). These first two images are aerial photos of the island and mainland portions of Tyre as it exists today:
The following graphic image is an outline of the more densely populated areas of the modern island and mainland portion of the city and also depicts the preserved areas of Greek and Roman ruins. As can be seen in the top picture above, many of the geographical areas outside the more densely populated areas are now interspersed with various buildings and farms. The Lebanese Department of Antiquities' excavation areas: 1, 2 and 3 are the light (and numbered if you can see it) areas; 1 and 2 on the upper left edge of the island and 3, lower right on the mainland by the hippodrome. (Map by courtesy of the late Roger Saidah, Department of Antiquities)
Various sources have suggested that the various coastal villages and towns that existed along the Phoenician coast were often lumped together under the regional designation of "Tyre" or sometimes "Sidon". Depending on the source, the extent of this suburban sprawl has been estimated to be anywhere from 7 to 20 miles along the length; stretching along the coast from Ras El Ein approximately 3 miles to the south and almost to Sidon on the north and, as mentioned, were probably considered satellite villages (or, as in the bible, daughters) of Tyre proper. In order for Ezekiel's prophecy to have any meaning whatsoever, he must necessarily have been referring to Tyre proper as it existed at the time, which apparently consisted of a heavily fortified urban island and a fortified coastal town directly opposite with various affiliated towns and suburban sprawl stringing along the coast in either direction. The images above indicate that the majority of this area has been built on and populated throughout history by the Greeks and the Romans as well as in the modern era. #3, The switch from the 3rd pers. sing. pronoun (he) to the 3rd pers. plur. pronoun (they) between verses 11 & 12, is the dividing line between the role of Nebuchadnezzar and the later role of Alexander in fulfilling this prophecy. And: #4, The phrases "many nations" and "as the sea causeth his waves to come up", indicates that various nations will fulfill this prophecy over time. These fall into the same category and can be discussed together. The first weakness of this argument is that it is merely semantics. IOW, if this prophecy actually intended to refer to Alexander, a clear statement to that effect could have been made at any point. After all, it is contended that Isaiah prophesied Cyrus by name +/- 200 years before the fact. And yet, this prophecy in Ezekiel is reduced to dependence upon nitpicking otherwise normal pronoun usage and the dubious interpretation of two ambiguous terms. The assertion that a switch in pronoun number is somehow to be taken as a reference to Alexander is nothing more than a complete disregard for the grammatical rules of antecedents. The antecendents to the pronoun "they" in verse 12 are given in verses 7 & 10, i.e. (respectively) "companies and much people" and "horsemen". "They" are "his" (Nebuchadnezzar's) companies and horsemen, and "he" uses "them" to destroy the city. Take a look at the phrase in verse 10, "By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee . . ." The antecedent to the pronoun "their" in this sentence is "(his) horses". IOW, the pronoun "their" in this sentence does not refer to the daughters of Tyre, it doesn't refer to Alexander's horses and neither does it refer to the modern local equestrian club. It is connected to the antecedent in the same manner in which "they" in verse 12 is connected to "his" (Nebuchadnezzar's) companies and horsemen. And, as if this shouldn't be obvious, some of the earliest extant documents we have do not contain a switch in these pronouns at all. The LXX recension is one such example. Because the LXX verses apply to the following considerations also, I will reproduce the relevant portion of the LXX text subsequent to the next few points. Then also, we both understand that "sea", "flood" and "waters" are often used metaphorically for the movement of massive armies. However, here (and for no other excuse than to make this prophecy fit), you want to attach undue significance to the term "waves". Interpreting "waves" to mean that the armies of various different cultures in various different eras will attack Tyre in succession is demonstrably unwarranted. The demonstration that this is so can be made with a couple of verses: The phrase in Jer. 26:3, ". . . as the sea causeth his waves to come up", metaphorially refers to Nebuchdnezzar's armies overflowing Tyre in the same manner that the rising tide causes the sea waves to overflow the land. Jeremiah describes the fall of Babylon using the same metaphorical terminology, i.e. Jer. 51:42, "The sea is come up upon Babylon; she is covered with the multitude of the waves thereof." Neither does "many nations" refer to the armies of different cultures at different times. Had this prophecy intended to indicate that Tyre would be destroyed by different independent nations over a period of time, it would have been quite easy to specify in words such as: "Nation after nation will attack Tyre until the city is wiped from the face of the earth." As it is, the Hebrew term translated as "many" in Ez. 26:3 is "rab", which is properly translated as "abundant". Hence, rather than Tyre being attacked one nation at a time over a long period, the verse more properly describes Tyre being overflowed (as in the rising tide metaphor) by abundant nations. As it happens, Nebuchadnezzar was king over and had command of many (or abundant) nations and men from all of these many nations served as part of his armed forces. One example here should suffice. When Nebuchadnezzar attacked Jerusalem, Jeremiah spoke in terms of the city fighting against "all the kingdoms of the earth under Nebuchadnezzar's command", i.e. many nations had overflowed Jerusalem: Jeremiah 34:1 ". . . Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, and all his army, and all the kingdoms of the earth of his dominion , and all the people, fought against Jerusalem. . ." Here now are the relevant passages reproduced from the LXX (all emphases added): Ezekiel 26:7 "For thus saith the Lord; Behold, I bring up against thee, O Sor, Nabuchodonosor king of Babylon from the north; he is a king of kings, with horses, and chariots, and horsemen, and a concourse of very many nations." This above verse from the LXX makes it fairly clear whose army these "many nations" comprise. Now, Ezekiel 26:10 -14: (10) "By reason of the multitude of his horses their dust shall cover thee, and by reason of the sound of his horsemen and the wheels of his chariots thy walls shall be shaken, when he enters into thy gates, as one entering into a city from the plain." (11) "With the hoofs of his horses they shall trample all thy streets; he shall slay thy people with the sword, and shall bring down to the ground the support of thy strength." Here we have the pronoun "switch" in a single sentence. The antecedent to "they" is, of course, the "horsemen" mentioned in the previous verse. Unless, that is, one would prefer to think that Alexander trampled the streets of Tyre with Nebuchadnezzar's horses. (12) "And he shall prey upon thy power, and plunder thy substance, and shall cast down thy walls, and break down thy pleasant houses; and he shall cast thy stones and thy timber and thy dust into the midst of the sea." Here we still have the pronoun "he" in the description of Tyre being thrown into the sea. It has often been said that this concept (of throwing a city into the sea) is so unique that Ezekiel could have never thought of it had it not been genuine prophecy. And yet, +/- 100 yrs before Ezekiel's prophecy, Esarhaddon (just before he barricaded Tyre) claims to have done exactly that to the city of Sidon (located on the seacoast c. 20 mi. north of Tyre).
quote: (13) "And he shall destroy the multitude of thy musicians, and the sound of thy psalteries shall be heard no more. (14) "And I will make thee a bare rock; thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more; for I the Lord have spoken, saith the Lord." Thus, it appears that insular Tyre (the island with it's harbors) was a, if not the major part of the city long before and during the time of Ezekiel's utterances. Also, even though some of the outlying suburban sprawl of Phoenician Tyre may no longer be there, it would appear that a hugely significant portion of the Tyre of Ezekiel's time (both island and mainland) has been profusely built upon and populated (by the Greeks and Romans as well as in modern times). Also, the semantics game with pronouns and ambiguous metaphors appears to be nothing more than that, i.e., a game for those who desperately desire to have their religion validated. Namaste' Amlodhi
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