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Author Topic:   The Tension of Faith
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1276 of 1540 (825473)
12-15-2017 9:44 AM
Reply to: Message 1267 by Percy
12-14-2017 7:27 PM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
No, I think Hyde Park's about right for you, but I suggest you get your facts straight, especially before declaring you "know what's going on." One thing we do know, as well stated by the Washington Post: "When a cake artist opens the doors of his bakery, he commits to serving all customers equally."
This is false. He is not required to decorate his cakes with images or messages that are utterly repugnant to him morally.
abe: There has been more than one baker, along with a photographer and a florist, forced out of business -- meaning the wedding oriented part of the business. The Oregon bakery had to close its doors to the public.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1267 by Percy, posted 12-14-2017 7:27 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1283 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 1:13 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1277 of 1540 (825477)
12-15-2017 10:11 AM
Reply to: Message 1274 by Faith
12-15-2017 9:30 AM


Re: What is sad about much of Christianity today
Faith writes:
Ugh what weasel talk. Being forced to make a wedding cake for a gay marriage or have to give up making wedding cakes is government tyranny enough. Make a wedding cake or be ostracized as a "hater" and lose your wedding cake business might not be called "force" in Wonderland I suppose. And Mao would just toss you into prison, so there's that. As for abortions, any sane society should oppose legalized murder of innocents.
There cannot be legalized murder, that is simply a stupid assertion Faith.
Abortion is not murder, thank God!
No one has been forced to bake a wedding cake. But if you do bake wedding cakes then you cannot discriminate and break the law.
No one was ostracized as a hater; they were shown to be law breakers.
Faith writes:
Right, it's not that the law punishes Christians for being Christians, it's that we imagine it, so if we just ignore it we can pretend it doesn't happen.
In the United States of America no one has been punished for being a Christian.
Once again reality shows you are simply wrong.
Faith writes:
Jesus NEVER treats God's Law like this. He said the Law is Holy and that every jot and tittle of it will be fulfilled. What you are calling "common courtesy" may be included in God's Law but since you don't quote and make everything up to suit yourself I have no idea what you are talking about.
Your selective memory has arisen once again.
We have discussed this in detain many times.
One great example we have discussed in the past is from 2 Kings 5 involving going with his master into the Temple of Rimmon and bowing down to Rimmon. Yet another is Jesus tell folk that if their ass is in a crack on the Sabbath don't wait until the next day to pull it out.
This is a common pattern from you Faith; to selectively forget all the instances where what you assert are shown to be incorrect.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1274 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 9:30 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1279 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 10:23 AM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1278 of 1540 (825479)
12-15-2017 10:22 AM
Reply to: Message 1270 by Paboss
12-14-2017 11:40 PM


Re: What is sad about much of Christianity today
You are comparing God's judgments and punishments with the murder of innocents. Weird how that kind of conflation has become so common in this day of burgeoning paganism.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1270 by Paboss, posted 12-14-2017 11:40 PM Paboss has not replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1281 by ringo, posted 12-15-2017 11:29 AM Faith has not replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1279 of 1540 (825480)
12-15-2017 10:23 AM
Reply to: Message 1277 by jar
12-15-2017 10:11 AM


Re: What is sad about much of Christianity today
Right, just flatly deny what has been proved beyond a doubt. Very effective tactic where you are surrounded by confederates who won't call you on even the most egregious lies and stupidities..
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1277 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 10:11 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1280 by jar, posted 12-15-2017 10:48 AM Faith has not replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1280 of 1540 (825483)
12-15-2017 10:48 AM
Reply to: Message 1279 by Faith
12-15-2017 10:23 AM


Re: What is sad about much of Christianity today
Faith writes:
Right, just flatly deny what has been proved beyond a doubt. Very effective tactic where you are surrounded by confederates who won't call you on even the most egregious lies and stupidities..
And yet another vague, unsupported assertion from you it seems.
Please provide the link to where I denied something that has been "proved beyond a doubt."

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1279 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 10:23 AM Faith has not replied

  
ringo
Member (Idle past 412 days)
Posts: 20940
From: frozen wasteland
Joined: 03-23-2005


Message 1281 of 1540 (825499)
12-15-2017 11:29 AM
Reply to: Message 1278 by Faith
12-15-2017 10:22 AM


Re: What is sad about much of Christianity today
Faith writes:
You are comparing God's judgments and punishments with the murder of innocents. Weird how that kind of conflation has become so common in this day of burgeoning paganism.
Burgeoning empathy. With all the images we see of starving brown babies, we're learning to set aside our instinctive prejudices. One murdered innocent looks much like another murdered innocent.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1278 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 10:22 AM Faith has not replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1282 of 1540 (825509)
12-15-2017 12:48 PM
Reply to: Message 1275 by Faith
12-15-2017 9:41 AM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
Faith writes:
I've already answered this utterly evil post.
Empty, barren and untruthful replies like this is why you're so deserving of calumny and opprobrium. This was your response (for one could certainly never call it an answer) in your Message 1261:
"It's amazing how you manage not to understand anything at all on this thread."
You say nothing, explain nothing, answer nothing. In fact, nothing and emptiness best characterize your contributions thus far.
Have you a wish to answer my Message 1258, it still resides where it always has, responded to (twice!) but unanswered.
--Percy
Edited by Percy, : Grammar.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1275 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 9:41 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1285 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:43 AM Percy has replied

  
Percy
Member
Posts: 22391
From: New Hampshire
Joined: 12-23-2000
Member Rating: 5.2


Message 1283 of 1540 (825512)
12-15-2017 1:13 PM
Reply to: Message 1276 by Faith
12-15-2017 9:44 AM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
Faith writes:
No, I think Hyde Park's about right for you, but I suggest you get your facts straight, especially before declaring you "know what's going on." One thing we do know, as well stated by the Washington Post: "When a cake artist opens the doors of his bakery, he commits to serving all customers equally."
This is false. He is not required to decorate his cakes with images or messages that are utterly repugnant to him morally.
You, again, need to check your facts, dear lady. The courts would probably agree with you that "He is not required to decorate his cakes with images or messages that are utterly repugnant to him morally." But the betrothed couple merely told the baker that they wished to purchase one of his custom wedding cakes, at which point he refused them. They left immediately. Nothing was said about images or messages.
abe: There has been more than one baker, along with a photographer and a florist, forced out of business -- meaning the wedding oriented part of the business. The Oregon bakery had to close its doors to the public.
Given your demonstrated accuracy thus far, or more precisely the profound lack thereof, and especially recently, the only comment I can make about the above unsubstantiated and (because you provide no details, as is your frequent habit) unverifiable claims is that they may or may not be true. With you one never knows, you frequently just say whatever pops into your head to support your position, truth be damned. Your "end justify the means" approach would make Machiavelli proud.
--Percy

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1276 by Faith, posted 12-15-2017 9:44 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1284 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:17 AM Percy has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1284 of 1540 (825555)
12-16-2017 1:17 AM
Reply to: Message 1283 by Percy
12-15-2017 1:13 PM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
You, again, need to check your facts, dear lady. The courts would probably agree with you that "He is not required to decorate his cakes with images or messages that are utterly repugnant to him morally." But the betrothed couple merely told the baker that they wished to purchase one of his custom wedding cakes, at which point he refused them. They left immediately. Nothing was said about images or messages.
Why don't you respond in the spirit of my meaning instead of invoking your nitpicking distinctions? Because you aren't interested in truth or fairness, you're out for blood in the service of your project to be sure I'm deprived of any respect for my point of view, the point of view that in fact established the very principle of civil rights you think you are defending, but you twist it so that evil is good and good is evil. A wedding cake itself is enough of an image to be a symbol of a wedding, and a wedding between homosexuals is morally repugnant to the teachings of Christianity.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1283 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 1:13 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1286 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 7:02 AM Faith has replied
 Message 1309 by Percy, posted 12-16-2017 4:36 PM Faith has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1285 of 1540 (825558)
12-16-2017 1:43 AM
Reply to: Message 1282 by Percy
12-15-2017 12:48 PM


Re: definitions and semantics, supernatural, miracle etc.
The points in that post were answered already. Go find the answers yourself. And NOBODY deserves the calumny and opprobrium you dish out. Justifying it just makes you all the more disgusting.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1282 by Percy, posted 12-15-2017 12:48 PM Percy has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1310 by Percy, posted 12-16-2017 4:58 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1286 of 1540 (825572)
12-16-2017 7:02 AM
Reply to: Message 1284 by Faith
12-16-2017 1:17 AM


on marriage as a civil contract
Faith writes:
Because you aren't interested in truth or fairness, you're out for blood in the service of your project to be sure I'm deprived of any respect for my point of view, the point of view that in fact established the very principle of civil rights you think you are defending, but you twist it so that evil is good and good is evil.
Reality Faith shows that civil rights were the result of the Enlightenment movement not Christianity or any other religion.
Faith writes:
A wedding cake itself is enough of an image to be a symbol of a wedding, and a wedding between homosexuals is morally repugnant to the teachings of Christianity.
Again, reality shows you are once again misrepresenting the truth.
First, marriage is a civil contract and not something religious by nature.
Second, not all Chapters of Club Christian consider a wedding between homosexuals as morally repugnant.
Third, a wedding cake is simply a cake just like a birthday cake is just a cake.
Fourth, finding a task repugnant is not a justification from breaking a law.
Fifth, no one is being forced to marry another of the same sex or approve of a same sex marriage or have a same sex marriage performed in their Chapter of Club Christian.
Sorry Faith but those are reality.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1284 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:17 AM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1287 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 12:25 PM jar has replied
 Message 1294 by dwise1, posted 12-16-2017 1:30 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1287 of 1540 (825605)
12-16-2017 12:25 PM
Reply to: Message 1286 by jar
12-16-2017 7:02 AM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
Reality Faith shows that civil rights were the result of the Enlightenment movement not Christianity or any other religion.
The Enlightenment couldn't have thought it up without Christianity. John Locke was mentored by John Owen, who was a powerful Puritan preacher and Oxford Professor.
And the idea of twisting marriage to apply to homosexuals is an absurd travesty that no Enlightenment leader would have countenanced.
God specifically ordained marriage as reported in Genesis, and Jesus referred to that ordination as binding. God made them male and female...A man shall leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife... what God has brought together let no man put asunder.
Christians who don't understand that gay marriage violates God's Law are just supremely ignorant of the Bible.
You have your definitions, they are not biblical but mine are and I share them with other biblical Christians. Your definitions are not Christian, they are basically pagan, which is where this whole travesty of gay marriage comes from. And your silly refrain about being forced to marry a homosexual is so absurd I don't know how even you manage to keep it up. Forced to acknowledge the legitimacy of gay marriage is the problem for a Christian and there are many ways that IS forced on us when the law penalizes us for refusing to supply wedding accommodations, wedding cake, flowers, photos, wedding license. Stop the silliness, jar, it's become ludicrous.
For us it is very much like being required to worship Caesar as "god" or else. Same situation exactly.
There was no need to overturn this basic Christian tenet if what homosexuals want is a legal contract they can depend on. That could have been done without destroying the God-ordained basis of marriage.
abe: This has been argued to death already many times, but as long as the fundamental Christian dilemma is ignored I'm going to continue to argue it.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.
Edited by Faith, : No reason given.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1286 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 7:02 AM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1288 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 1:06 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1288 of 1540 (825606)
12-16-2017 1:06 PM
Reply to: Message 1287 by Faith
12-16-2017 12:25 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
Reality still says you are wrong.
In the US (you do live in the US?) marriage is a CIVIL contract just as it was for the Jews like Jesus.
Marriage in the US is a civil contract.
Marriage in the US is a civil contract.
Faith, that is the fact and reality.
Faith writes:
God made them male and female
No Faith, God made them male and female and both male and female and changing from male to female and at time male and other times female ...
That is simply yet another example of where the Bible stories are factually wrong.
The problem is that fundamental Christians are simply wrong and not honest about reality.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1287 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 12:25 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1289 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:12 PM jar has replied

  
Faith 
Suspended Member (Idle past 1444 days)
Posts: 35298
From: Nevada, USA
Joined: 10-06-2001


Message 1289 of 1540 (825608)
12-16-2017 1:12 PM
Reply to: Message 1288 by jar
12-16-2017 1:06 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
Christians must answer to God above all governments, and if it weren't for the perversity of our government's forcing gay marriage on us there wouldn't have been any conflict.
Reality has had its teeth in your butt for a long time without you noticing. Guess it's numb to reality.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1288 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 1:06 PM jar has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1290 by jar, posted 12-16-2017 1:19 PM Faith has replied
 Message 1292 by PaulK, posted 12-16-2017 1:26 PM Faith has replied

  
jar
Member (Idle past 394 days)
Posts: 34026
From: Texas!!
Joined: 04-20-2004


Message 1290 of 1540 (825609)
12-16-2017 1:19 PM
Reply to: Message 1289 by Faith
12-16-2017 1:12 PM


Re: on marriage as a civil contract
Faith writes:
Christians must answer to God above all governments, and if it weren't for the perversity of our government's forcing gay marriage on us there wouldn't have been any conflict.
Again Faith, that is NOT what Jesus taught.
Gay marriage has never been forced on anyone in the US and making that claim is simply another misrepresentation of fact, truth and reality.

My Sister's Website: Rose Hill Studios My Website: My Website

This message is a reply to:
 Message 1289 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:12 PM Faith has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 1291 by Faith, posted 12-16-2017 1:21 PM jar has not replied

  
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