Did Jesus Lie?

purpledawn So the matter is that there is no one that has faith of a mustard seed at all alive today that can accomplish the assertion that Jesus made about being able to accomplish the impossible. Then why is there always such an emphasis on having faith within the Christian religion when it never amounts to anything and nobody ever has any. So now it IS only metaphor. Perhaps there should be included in the verses a note specifically stating that this line is not to be taken seriously. That way we can also conclude that Jesus did not drive out demons either but that it was a metaphor for something else? Methinks that the Bible is in severe need of a revamping so that the bullshit that the actual verses presents can not be taken at the face value that seems to be the way they have been passed down through the centuries.It would be good to include a complete workings of just where the bible is dealing with metaphor and where it is dealing with verses as they are written,because it sure seems that the goal posts get shifted to accommodate the central theme when contoversy flares up.

Hi sidelined,I know what I believe and I am glad that you was able to look up my statement. sidelined I believe these things as fact as I see it just as what you believe is fact as you see it.God is just as much a fact to me as the universe coming into existence as the result of a singularity expanding, which you or no one has any idea where it came from is to you.Do I believe God can do anything. Yes. Do I believe He will. No.
I believe that He will do whatever He wills to do regardless of what I or anyone else thinks He should do. I just want you to realize that one day you will stand before the God you say does not exist and confess that He is God.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

This makes no sense at all. Since no one has ever restored a missing limb or replace a missing eye, let alone moved a mountain, then no human can ever have the faith the size of a mustard seed so why even bring the subject up - what was the intent? This is a completely useless passage. Edited by iceage, : No reason given.

Sure all memes of invisible beings require that.... Your theology is on the same level as chain-letter psychology. Religion and Chain LettersBut you cannot so.... Why not? Why did Jesus do miracles when here on earth? Why did God supposedly "tear" the curtain in the temple? Why supposedly did God reverse the sun for sign to some ailing king? A colossal cosmological intervention for a single individual but nothing for the world in general.... Does this sound congruent.A curious fact is that the lack of desire of your God to "give you the sign" is remarkable like other invisible Gods (Zeus, Apollo, Thor, Allah, etc.)

Hi iceage,
You asked: How about because Jesus said so.Jesus said: I do not need nor do I desire a sign.You guys are the ones wanting a sign.

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"John 5:39 (KJS) Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me."

Although it is said that faith can move mountains, experience shows that dynamite works better.

quote:

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Methinks that the Bible is in severe need of a revamping so that the bullshit that the actual verses presents can not be taken at the face value that seems to be the way they have been passed down through the centuries.

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Actually people need "revamping". We need to read it the same way we read other literature and understand that ancient people were also creative in getting their point across and appealing to the emotions of the audience.Notice that the author of Mark gave the tale of the withered fig tree which then turned into a mountain analogy dealing with doubt. The author of Matthew, who supposedly pulled his material from Mark wrote about the mustard seed faith in chapter 17, but later in chapter 21 he gives his version of the withered fig issue which also brings up mountain tossing. The disciples are starting to look like a foil for this author. Notice the withered fig story also has an out. If you do not doubt... So again, if the mountain doesn't move, the person has doubt. If things don't work right it is the individual's fault. Either doubt or lack of faith, whichever way we want to look at it.This brings up the question that if the disciples were so inept at remembering their leader's words, why believe that this author presented Jesus' words verbatim?

ICANT SO you do not have doubt{and therefore have faith} which is what is required of you to perform the feats of moving mountains etc. But you claimed that no one had that much faith. You contradict yourself my friend.As I have said it is my understanding that the reason you refuse to do such feats is because such feats are impossible. You claim not to doubt therefore you now have faith which means you are capable.So either you refuse to do so which means you are withholding helping people that you have the ability to aid or you are lying about your lack of doubt.Now to reiterate a statement I made in the OP so that the audience viewing here may understand that I claimed that this would happen. At this point we shall see some squirming I assure you.Explain yourself ICANT.

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"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."Albert Einstein

For an author it makes perfect sense.If someone literally tries to move a mountain or curse a fig tree and it doesn't work, then it's their fault, not that anything written is wrong. Keeps the mystery alive.It's easier to understand if you look at the passage in Mark which I quoted in Message 21. IMO, the author of Mark has applied the concept of positive thinking.If Matthew was written as a satire, then the author was exaggerating that portion of Mark. We know that positive thinking can only take us so far.

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"Peshat is what I say and derash is what you say." --Nehama Leibowitz

purpledawn So,unlike ICANT, you do think that the admonition that Jesus gave the crowd about their lack of faith is meaningless except in that he was referring to the power of positive thinking allowing him to accomplish his 'miracles'? Therefore the feat is impossible as stated and that such things cannot occur in reality correct?

Jesus was only talking with his disciples, per the story.It is meaningless in regards to literally moving mountains and trees. If you notice, the author doesn't have Jesus demonstrate those extreme actions. Even the author didn't want to go that far.It isn't necessarily meaningless in regards to the overall story.As far as I know, we can't move mountains or trees with a word; unless of course it's on a work order.

You're demanding that ICANT explain himself in regards to the rules you have created. Message 1You claim to know how much faith or doubt ICANT has personally. You don't know actually know how much faith it takes to be the size of a mustard seed. That's the beauty of the verse. If the deed cannot be done, then the person doesn't have enough faith or has doubt that the action will happen depending on which story you read.Nothing in the story says that combining the faith of several people will do the trick.Per the story, if ICANT is unable to move a mountain, grow a limb, or move a tree; then he either has doubt that the action will happen as the author of Mark stated or he doesn't have faith the size of a mustard seed as the author of Matthew stated. I don't feel that anyone has enough faith to literally move a mountain. IMO, the doubt will always be there.There is no squirming. If one takes the passage literally, then the lack of accomplishment means doubt or lack of faith no matter what the individual says. If one takes the passage metaphorically, then we aren't dealing with moving trees or mountains anyway. Demanding explanations from ICANT is useless. If one takes the story literally, the disciples didn't even have enough faith and they were with Jesus. Why would you assume that Christians today would have more faith than the disciples who were with Jesus? They may not even have faith in the right thing for all you know.It's like demanding the truth from someone who has already told you the truth.

purpledawnThen what actual event was being discussed should we assume? That Jesus actually rebuked a demon which we also know not to be real? If Christ actually does no "miracles" then perhaps the story itself is lost over the years and what we gain from the story is a reflection of what is inside some of us and not anything along the lines of what actually occurred.Regardless my aim is not at people who believe that such feats are impossible as I have asserted but those who do ,indeed,stand by the verses as evidence of such. As long as the money is there and the bureaucracy has a clue.

Okay, I re-read that chapter (Matt 17) and Jesus doesn't seem to be speaking as figuratively as I had thought.Its still a posibility in that he didn't really mean that they could move mountains and that mountains are just an example of something really big to exemplify the power of faith.But assuming that he did mean it, it seems like Jesus is only talking to his disciples. Basically he is saying that they have magic powers like he does (if they have enough faith). I don't think this applies to us today. You can see yourself that we don't have magic powers, but the Bible claims (i doubt I can link to a verse, tho) that the disciples had other magic powers back then too, right?Either way, Jesus wasn't lying.

Catholic Scientist That is hardly the case at all since the Bible gives other examples like the woman who touched his robe and the centurion whose faith cured the servant. So no, it is available to all. Again the point remains that it is a lie that such things can be done if taken to be truth as it is written.

Wanting a sign is a bit of a red herring concerning this topic.The topic says very simply that if you have faith you can perform miracles.From putting together your various statements you seem to be saying that Jesus said "if you have faith you can perform miracles however miracles are a sign and God doesn't want to give a sign so no miracles." Huh?I hesitate to reiterate and not drag this topic off course but on the topic of signs why did Jesus perform miracles? Why did God reverse the movement of the Sun?