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Author Topic:   Will there be another "9/11" ?
Chiroptera
Inactive Member


Message 136 of 147 (143310)
09-20-2004 9:27 AM
Reply to: Message 132 by ThingsChange
09-20-2004 12:43 AM


Re: Jihad
quote:
But, clearly the US and Israel are taking the main interest, at the moment, because that is a holy land for Muslims and is a unifying force among Arabs.
Are you sure that the problem isn't that the land is the home of the Palestinians, and this is a unifying force among the people that actually live there?

This message is a reply to:
 Message 132 by ThingsChange, posted 09-20-2004 12:43 AM ThingsChange has not replied

  
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 137 of 147 (143668)
09-21-2004 3:20 PM
Reply to: Message 121 by Silent H
09-18-2004 6:07 PM


Actually most neoconservatives that matter (not just regular people supporters) are Jewish with only a few other people around. And I know these people are so inbedded in the very heavy Jewish culture in these circles as to be not Jewish in name only. I would question that there are any or many Evangelical Neo cons. Evangelical support for Israel has nothing to do with neo-cons culture. Also perhaqps I'm wrong but I thought Wolfowitz was Jewish.And Asghcroft and Bush just tag along the real mccoy.
You suggest I tone down the Jewish angle but group motives is a real thing. As a evangelical Christian we are always without any criticism said to be this or doing that in political/social agendas. The group motive is a real thing as saying Blacks vote Democratic for a Black agenda and Southerners for a Southern agenda. Only the charge should be scruntized not the concept of group think.
Also the Jewish agenda in American politics especially in regards to Israel is common. Only different ideas on how to proceed. The Jewish agenda has dominated American foreign policy imore then any other agenda except the fight against the cold war. Follow the money. Over 100 billion to Israel in a few decades. No other people in history or now however distressed can claim such interest.
Jewish control and influence has brought American workers money to thier other counrty's gain with malice all around to Americans and mankind. Follow the money.
The Jewish angle is the great angle of the times and history will judge so. Its not just neocons. This whole 9/11 thing is the result of a long interference in middle east affairs for Jewish pride and gain. Not American values or mankinds relief. This is the truth and as a former Israel supporter and close observer and well wisher of the conservative cause I INSIST this is the great problem. Everything else about these matters is a waste of words by the people who are censered ,as far as can be, from the truth.
r in Iraq was evil and future wars for Israel also will be and bring trouble to America and not relief.
Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 121 by Silent H, posted 09-18-2004 6:07 PM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 140 by Rei, posted 09-21-2004 3:51 PM Robert Byers has replied
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 138 of 147 (143673)
09-21-2004 3:31 PM
Reply to: Message 120 by RAZD
09-18-2004 3:53 PM


canard derange?
I stand corrected. He was a duck. My apologies. I'll try not to assume the sanity of people in the future.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 139 of 147 (143677)
09-21-2004 3:41 PM
Reply to: Message 122 by paisano
09-18-2004 10:27 PM


quote:
There's a truckload of assumptions behind your argument. One, that the attacks are monotonically increasing. Most wars involve increased combat until one side is defeated.
Actually, no they don't. Combat tends to remain at a steady-state or decrease as the war nears its end.
quote:
Another, that an alternative strategy (which you haven't presented) would be more effective.
Then let me: Covert police actions. It's what we were doing before. It worked. When we switched to "overt wars against tangential targets", the rate skyrocketted.
quote:
In any case, yes, one must examine the motives of one's enemies.
Thank you!
Who is making that assumption? In the case of al-Qaeda, as I argued and you didn't address, they *repeatedly state what they feel has been things that we have done that have wronged them*. Among insurgents in Iraq, it is even more obvious (and certainly more justifiable, even if not strategically the best option)
quote:
Yes the terrorists have reasons for attacking us. Their reasons, not ours.
Thank you again.
quote:
Personally, I have very little patience to listen to the "legitimate concerns" of people who lure 7 year old children out with chocolate bars to be shot in the back as they run away.
Please, cite this incident. As a counter:
"Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered - death squads gunned them down in el Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumble on the pavement in Sarajevo - but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport"
quote:
Wrong on both counts, and your presupposition that acts of war necessarily involve state entities is also wrong.
No nation did attack us. Is al-Qaeda a nation? Where's their UN seat?

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 122 by paisano, posted 09-18-2004 10:27 PM paisano has not replied

Replies to this message:
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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 140 of 147 (143683)
09-21-2004 3:51 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Robert Byers
09-21-2004 3:20 PM


quote:
And Asghcroft and Bush just tag along the real mccoy.
Ashcroft and Bush are treated as neocons just as much as Wolfowitz. In fact, probably the defining neocon organization is "The Project for the New American Century". Take a look at their signatories list - how many are Jewish?
Neocon is a term used by the left; the right has only started using it in response to the left's use of it. What right do *you* have to change its meaning, in order to try and bend our words? That's almost as bad as if I defined Christian to mean "people who love bombing abortion clinics", and insisted that's what Christianity was about. It's not my term, so I don't have the right to redefine it.
quote:
As a evangelical Christian we are always without any criticism said to be this or doing that in political/social agendas. The group motive is a real thing as saying Blacks vote Democratic for a Black agenda and Southerners for a Southern agenda. Only the charge should be scruntized not the concept of group think.
Quite true - there are a number of Jewish groups (including the US's largest foreign affairs lobby - AIPAC) that advocate staunchly pro-Israel policies and often ally themselves with the neocons. That doesn't change the fact that neocon doesn't mean "jewish pro-Israel person". It means "person who advocates aggressively using America's military without any new provocation in an attempt to change the world more to our interests".
Much of what you said about the power of the pro-Israel lobby in the US is true. AIPAC alone has over 60,000 employees - a staggering amount. The pro-Israel lobby is huge, quite skilled, and the US has funneled vast amounts of money and military equipment to Israel largely as a result. However, I think this was a bit over the top:
quote:
Jewish control and influence has brought American workers money to thier other counrty's gain with malice all around to Americans and mankind. Follow the money.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Robert Byers, posted 09-21-2004 3:20 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 141 of 147 (143690)
09-21-2004 3:58 PM
Reply to: Message 137 by Robert Byers
09-21-2004 3:20 PM


You suggest I tone down the Jewish angle but group motives is a real thing.
Not all jews support Israel, and of those that do, not all believe that it should be at the expense of the US or international law (so they do not support rightists like Sharon and Netanyahu).
I agree that there is a large pressure on our government by zionists to support Israel no matter how insane it gets. But zionist organizations are merely presenting themselves as the voice of all jews to put on the pressure.
Positions like yours end up being divisive and making 1) Jewish people not listen to you because you've already labelled them bad, and 2) nonJewish people not listen to you because you sound irrational as well as a bigot.
You should stick to actual players and not use group labels.

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 137 by Robert Byers, posted 09-21-2004 3:20 PM Robert Byers has replied

Replies to this message:
 Message 144 by Robert Byers, posted 09-23-2004 2:57 PM Silent H has not replied

  
ThingsChange
Member (Idle past 5926 days)
Posts: 315
From: Houston, Tejas (Mexican Colony)
Joined: 02-04-2004


Message 142 of 147 (143767)
09-21-2004 8:05 PM
Reply to: Message 135 by Silent H
09-20-2004 6:25 AM


ok, .... holy site (and access to it)
Holmes, you are quibbling over semantics. The Muslims want the land and pilgrimage access (i.e. land, not air) to their holy sites, which happen to be on land. Maybe my strict use of the term "holy land" was inappropriate, but I thought the message would get through: Israel and Palestinians+Muslims are fighting over the same land.
From Atheism and Agnosticism
"Dome of the Rock:
Located in Jerusalem, the Dome of the Rock is a Muslim shrine which stands on the site which is traditionally believed to be the place where the first Jewish temple was built. It was also here that people believe Abraham tried to sacrifice his son to God, and where Muhammad is believed to have ascended into heaven in order to receive God's commandments.
For Muslims, then, this has become the third holiest site for pilgrimage, after Mecca and Medina. It is probably the oldest surviving example of early Islamic architecture and is modeled after the Christian Church of the Holy Sepulchre, which is located nearby."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 135 by Silent H, posted 09-20-2004 6:25 AM Silent H has replied

Replies to this message:
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Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 143 of 147 (144120)
09-23-2004 2:50 PM
Reply to: Message 140 by Rei
09-21-2004 3:51 PM


I didn't know thier were 60000 employees in AIPAC. Are you sure of this number? It seems impossible. It also would not be needed as i discovered the Jewish element moves carefully thru small circles and very quietly unless they can't help it.
This groups strength however does show what I discovered and never knew before. That Jews are loyal to themselves and not to the people/country they live in. And everything they do is consistent with this idea. When they interfere and manipulate American power and will for Israel it is because they are working on behalf of thier people; thier real country.
It is a breck in the agreement of thier acceptance into your country and acceptance by Americans to them as fellow Americans.
It is injustice. It is still hidden. It is a great problem.
Rob

This message is a reply to:
 Message 140 by Rei, posted 09-21-2004 3:51 PM Rei has not replied

  
Robert Byers
Member (Idle past 4368 days)
Posts: 640
From: Toronto,canada
Joined: 02-06-2004


Message 144 of 147 (144121)
09-23-2004 2:57 PM
Reply to: Message 141 by Silent H
09-21-2004 3:58 PM


Indeed I don't mean all Jews are bad or disloyal. Let each man be judged separately in all things.
However it is my observation that most Jews are not American in loyalty or identity and so act consistantly fon behalf of thier people. Whether in America or Israel. The Israel matter is just another manifestation of this.
Jews in America didn't come from Israel and so thier attachment shows people are not loyal to thier country but rather to ones people. It just in the past worked out to be the same thing. It is so important it needs to be discussed how to correct it
Rob

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Silent H
Member (Idle past 5820 days)
Posts: 7405
From: satellite of love
Joined: 12-11-2002


Message 145 of 147 (144172)
09-23-2004 5:20 PM
Reply to: Message 142 by ThingsChange
09-21-2004 8:05 PM


Holmes, you are quibbling over semantics.
I'm not.
First of all Palestinians are not all Muslim. There are Xians and they are fighting Israeli occupation just the same.
Second, muslims who have an interest in the Dome of the Rock are not trying to get something they did not have, and should not have. They are not fighting to "get back" their "holy land".
Israel was imposed upon the people of the territories. Before that time there was no real issue of muslims wanting to remove jews in order to protect their holy properties. While the imposition of Israel itself was a land grab removing nonjews politically from Jewish "holy lands", since then Israel has continued to grab land specifically to regain their biblical territory.
Trying to recreate something that has been in the dust for over 3 millenia by force of arms and over the local population, is vastly different than regaining and keeping access to a site the local population had easy access to up till 60 years ago.
Right?
This message has been edited by holmes, 09-23-2004 04:22 PM

holmes
"...what a fool believes he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.."(D. Bros)

This message is a reply to:
 Message 142 by ThingsChange, posted 09-21-2004 8:05 PM ThingsChange has not replied

  
Melchior
Inactive Member


Message 146 of 147 (144190)
09-23-2004 6:04 PM
Reply to: Message 139 by Rei
09-21-2004 3:41 PM


quote:
"Personally, I have very little patience to listen to the "legitimate concerns" of people who lure 7 year old children out with chocolate bars to be shot in the back as they run away."
quote:
Please, cite this incident.(...)

This was from the beginning of September this year, when a group of terrorists killed over 150 children in a school in Beslan. I can't confirm the deal about luring out the children with chocolate, although I'm sure I've heard it somewhere shortly after the event (things were rather chaotic, though). The terrorists shooting children as they ran away is mentioned in most articles.
I'm sure you remember the emotional impact these murders provoked.

This message is a reply to:
 Message 139 by Rei, posted 09-21-2004 3:41 PM Rei has replied

Replies to this message:
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Rei
Member (Idle past 7013 days)
Posts: 1546
From: Iowa City, IA
Joined: 09-03-2003


Message 147 of 147 (144195)
09-23-2004 6:22 PM
Reply to: Message 146 by Melchior
09-23-2004 6:04 PM


I just checked that out - thanks for the cite . It was from eyewitness Rosa Dudiyeva, describing how one terrorist offered chocolate bars to the children as bait to try to show that they didn't mean anything bad for them (the kids were running away from them).
Of course, militaries do the same sort of thing.
---------
It is still. The camp waits, as if holding its breath. And then, out of the dry furnace air, a disembodied voice crackles over a loudspeaker.
"Come on, dogs," the voice booms in Arabic. "Where are all the dogs of Khan Younis? Come! Come!"
I stand up. I walk outside the hut. The invective continues to spew: "Son of a bitch!" "Son of a whore!" "Your mother's cunt!"
The boys dart in small packs up the sloping dunes to the electric fence that separates the camp from the Jewish settlement. They lob rocks toward two armored jeeps parked on top of the dune and mounted with loudspeakers. Three ambulances line the road below the dunes in anticipation of what is to come.
A percussion grenade explodes. The boys, most no more than ten or eleven years old, scatter, running clumsily across the heavy sand. They descend out of sight behind a sandbank in front of me. There are no sounds of gunfire. The soldiers shoot with silencers. The bullets from the M-16 rifles tumble end over end through the children's slight bodies. Later, in the hospital, I will see the destruction: the stomachs ripped out, the gaping holes in limbs and torsos.
Yesterday at this spot the Israelis shot eight young men, six of whom were under the age of eighteen. One was twelve. This afternoon they kill an eleven-year-old boy, Ali Murad, and seriously wound four more, three of whom are under eighteen. Children have been shot in other conflicts I have covered- death squads gunned them down in El Salvador and Guatemala, mothers with infants were lined up and massacred in Algeria, and Serb snipers put children in their sights and watched them crumple onto the pavement in Sarajevo - but I have never before watched soldiers entice children like mice into a trap and murder them for sport.
---------
Does that mean that the Israelis don't have valid grievances? Quite to the contrary, they indeed to have legitimate grievances, just as the Palestinians do. Some members of their forces adopting brutal, immoral tactics doesn't change the core issues behind the conflict.

"Illuminant light,
illuminate me."

This message is a reply to:
 Message 146 by Melchior, posted 09-23-2004 6:04 PM Melchior has not replied

  
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