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Author | Topic: Religion v Spirituality | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||
pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
It is difficult to explain because it's a bit paradoxical but I will have a go.
There is nothing outside of us that doesn't exist within. What does it mean in real terms?Everything we are aware of on the outside of us could not exist in our reality without our 'awareness' of it existing. E.g. the flat earth existed until someone had a new idea on the possibilty it could be round. It still existed as flat until it had been experienced and believed by enough humans to change the reality. However, the reality did not change. The earth was always round but to the believers of the flat earth, that was the reality. The awareness or consciousness or beliefs changed and they all exist within the human psyche. Therefore whether or not something exists depends on awareness coupled with experience.
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Dosen't sound very fundamental, I know exactly who I am. I assume you know who you are. What's that got to do with spirituality? If you mean to say that we are something other than that which we are then you are on shaky ground, my friend. I mean to say that we are much more than we think we are and whilst we think we know who we are then we cannot become more. We, humanity as a whole, are everything to do with spirituality. Without us there is no spirituality.
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Larni Member (Idle past 164 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Heinrik writes: I mean to say that we are much more than we think we are and whilst we think we know who we are then we cannot become more. We, humanity as a whole, are everything to do with spirituality. Without us there is no spirituality. The thing is Heinrik, you no reason to believe this is true. Many people are always striving to improve themselves without buying into your 'much more than we think we are'. How do you know we are 'more than we are' and what does this have to do with the hazy dazy term 'spiritual'?
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
Yes, well that certainly is paradoxical.
quote:Those two paragraphs completely contradict each other. You appear to be saying that reality is what we believe it to be, but you then go on to say the exact opposite. Reality is not not influenced by our perceptions of it. The Earth was round long before anyone was around to imagine that it might be flat. It was still round when people thought it was flat (an idea that was never particularly widespread BTW) and it remains round, whatever we believe or perceive. The idea of a flat Earth may have existed in peoples minds, and it still does, but that doesn't mean it really existed, except as an idea. There is an important distinction to be made here between existence as an idea, within the human mind and existence in objective reality. quote:What about a hypothetical life form, on an undiscovered planet? It would not exist in our minds, but it would still nonetheless be quite real. One last question; if a tree falls in a forest and only a Big Brother contestant is there to hear it, does it still make a sound? Mutate and Survive
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
The thing is Heinrik, you no reason to believe this is true. Many people are always striving to improve themselves without buying into your 'much more than we think we are'. I cannot prove this is true but I do have reason to believe it is. I am not talking about improving oneself, but truly knowing self and being true to oneself. This is the spirituality to which I refer. Not the supernatural but the natural which is super. Mandella said, "The problem isn't that we think too highly of ourselves but that we don't think highly enough."
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
Those two paragraphs completely contradict each other. You appear to be saying that reality is what we believe it to be, but you then go on to say the exact opposite. They are two sides of the same coin. Reality is what we believe it to be and experience it to be, until we become aware and experience it differently. The reality of the earth being round had no impact "on their reality". Until the belief was challenged it stood to be true.
What about a hypothetical life form, on an undiscovered planet? It would not exist in our minds, but it would still nonetheless be quite real. You could hypothetically say that but no-one would believe you.
One last question; if a tree falls in a forest and only a Big Brother contestant is there to hear it, does it still make a sound? Who is this big brother contestant? Do you mean George Bush?
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Larni Member (Idle past 164 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Heinrik writes: I cannot prove this is true but I do have reason to believe it is. Then for what reason do you believe this to be true if you do not have enough evidence to 'prove' it?
Heinrik writes: I am not talking about improving oneself, but truly knowing self and being true to oneself. Now you are moving the goal post and redefining your terms. And anyway, what the hell does 'truly knowing yourself and being true to your self' mean? Can you only partially know your self? Can you be untrue to yourself? You bandy about terms and define them as spiritual but in fact appear to mean 'being conscistant with ones nature'. Your Mandella quote is well observed; but it has bugger all to do with spirituallity.
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Larni Member (Idle past 164 days) Posts: 4000 From: Liverpool Joined: |
Granny Magda writes: One last question; if a tree falls in a forest and only a Big Brother contestant is there to hear it, does it still make a sound? I would like it to be the sound of the Big Brother contestant becoming spiritual with a big crunch.
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sidelined Member (Idle past 5908 days) Posts: 3435 From: Edmonton Alberta Canada Joined: |
Heinrik
Everything we are aware of on the outside of us could not exist in our reality without our 'awareness' of it existing. So you mean to say that, some years back, when I was in an emergency room having my hand operated on that when I was unaware of things due to being unconscious from the anesthetic that the surgeons fixing my hand did not exist? How would you explain them taking credit for it when they came to visit me when I awoke?
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
So you mean to say that, some years back, when I was in an emergency room having my hand operated on that when I was unaware of things due to being unconscious from the anesthetic that the surgeons fixing my hand did not exist? No I did not say that and I did not mean to say that. You missed the most imortant part of the statement which is "IN OUR REALITY". OURS as a whole. REALITY as an expereince of the belief. Edited by Heinrik, : No reason given.
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
You know, Larni I have really tried to express myself and my concepts to the best of my ability. There is nothing I can add that would not cause more of these reactionary posts. I am called woo woo, silly, stupid, accused of bandying words, and so much more. This does not hurt me and generally I ignore such remarks. But you know, your final statement told me not to ignore them any more.
larni writes: Your Mandella quote is well observed; but it has bugger all to do with spirituallity. I am banging my head against a brick wall with someone who is intent on disagreeing without any ideas or understanding of their own.
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
You know, Larni I have really tried to express myself and my concepts to the best of my ability. There is nothing I can add that would not cause more of these reactionary posts. I am called woo woo, silly, stupid, accused of bandying words, and so much more. Generally, I ignore such remarks. But you know, your final statement told me not to ignore them any more.
larni writes: Your Mandella quote is well observed; but it has bugger all to do with spirituallity. I am banging my head against a brick wall with someone who is intent on disagreeing without any ideas or understanding of their own.
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pelican Member (Idle past 4986 days) Posts: 781 From: australia Joined: |
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nwr Member Posts: 6408 From: Geneva, Illinois Joined: Member Rating: 5.1 |
I am banging my head against a brick wall with someone who is intent on disagreeing without any ideas or understanding of their own.
I have been following this thread. It is now at 74 messages, but I still haven't a clue as to what "spirituality" means, if it even means anything at all. What if you educated folk are too educated to understand some of us? - Heinrik
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Granny Magda Member Posts: 2462 From: UK Joined: Member Rating: 4.0 |
quote:The above statements would make much more sense if you substituted the phrase "world-view" for "reality". Our world-view is governed by our perceptions, but reality itself is not. Reality does not care what you think. The shared reality you talk about would be better described as perception or interpretation of reality, not reality itself. NWR is right, this topic is in danger of sliding into an abyss of off-topic nonsense. What you are talking about Heinrik, is philosophy, specifically ontology. It has nothing to do with spirituality and your insistence on describing it in those terms only confuses things. Mutate and Survive
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